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    The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

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    auslander
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  auslander on Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:56 am

    franco wrote:Not clear enough dunno

    The two servicemen were trying to get some records and certifications from within Ukraine to have put on their Russian service records when this new rule become law.

    True, This was an ongoing scam that apparently started well away from the border and culminated at the border with the snatch of the pair. Apparently the rules have been laid down from Command that no soldier or sailor is to believe that foolishness. There are other ways of getting that info and the inclusion of that info in service records is not as strict as normal, it is well known the difficulties of getting those documents from the orcs.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  MonkeymodelBananaRepublic on Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:57 pm

    incredible work on the casualty analysis !!

    Is anyone able to help him or contribute about the artillery ammunition supply that was asked about earlier?

    Ispan
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  Ispan on Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:53 pm

    MonkeymodelBananaRepublic wrote:incredible work on the casualty analysis !!

    Thanks, it's actually quite easy to do if you have some historical knowledge, just pay attention, and the math is simple.

    What I like about it is that the figures come from the Ukrops themselves and confirm the validity of the method for previous estimates



    Is anyone able to help him or contribute about the artillery ammunition supply that was asked about earlier?

    I would not bother though I am sure in Russian military forums there must be some regular military posters wich can do that work.

    I would rather prefer somebody with a knowledge of Russia summarized the frontline reports from "Mage" and others at chervonets site.


    Also on the subject of artillery and casualties, Khepesh argues that Novorussians don't shell the frontline Ukrainian positions. I am skeptical about that, I think artillery is doing a lot of execution on the ukrops, not just counterbattery but I would expect fire on troop concentrations when the Ukros mass for an attack, since those areas are behind the actual positions, Ukros cannot really show craters in a field as proof that they have been fired at.

    Given the influx of grievous wounded to hospitals in the rear, I believe those with multiple wounds have been hit by fragments and blast from shelling.

    If Khepesh is right and the bulk of ukros casualties are caused by machineguns and sundry other small arms when they get out of their positions and try to advance, that indirectly proves the enemy is constantly attacking sending troops over the top, even if they are in penny packets.

    Khepesh argues that if the Ukrops were being shelled, they will show footage to complain about the rebels violating the ceasefire, I think they have to shut up and take it for the same reason the Novorussian command tones down their reports, both sides have to play along with the fiction that there is no war going on to appease their backers.


    That being said, I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Maybe Novorussian artillery is not allowed to fire on Ukro positions, but I believe that according to typical trench warfare procedures, the Ukrops are blasted to bits when they try to advance because the Novorussian call down for defensive barrage, from mortars and artillery.

    Given the low density of troops and how thinly are the front lines manned, I think Novorussian defense is based on predicted fires barrages to halt any attack or infiltration between the defensive hedgehog positions.


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  Khepesh on Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:58 pm

    The questions on ammunition cannot be answered by any one person, and it really needs high level general or politician, if even any of them knew everything. Any answer here can only be a guess and will be very inaccurate. However as a starting point there are some facts. By 1991 there were seven armies on the territory that would become Ukraine, and with other forces not grouped into armies there was probably the equivalent of at least eight and maybe nine. Of these armies two can be discounted from calculations. 14th which is now the basis of PMR, and 32nd which was in Crimea, so all their stocks which had remained in situ after 1991, and it cannot be known what was left and what was removed, are not available to Kiev. Of the armies remaining they possibly had a total of 2,000 pieces of all types of artillery. How much ammunition was stored and for how long it was meant to last, who can say, and while major ground operations in WWIII were estimated to be over in perhaps no more than seven days if it lasted that long before going nuclear, and four days is more likely, there were certainly reserves to last a long time as it would be presumed that the factories would have all been vaporized and no new ones built for a long time, if ever. An example of forward stocks is that 14th Army still has about 20,000 + tonnes of ammunition even after most of their original stocks had been removed since 1991. It is true that they were sitting on largest ammunition dump in Europe in 1991, but the total amount of ammunition for the other armies within Ukraine as it is today will still be huge, far bigger combined than what 14th Army had. How much was destroyed, if any, how much sold? what is left. If I said 100,000 tonnes it could be too much or too little. Then there is the issue of how much is stable enough to withstand the rough treatment of transport to and on the battlefield, how much will simply not work, nobody knows.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  George1 on Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:40 pm

    Ukraine establishes new 'danger zones' for flights over Black Sea

    More:
    http://tass.com/world/915438


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  Ispan on Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:37 am

    Thanks Khepesh, but from what I remember reading, the issue of disarmament and recycling all those stockpiles of ammunition was covered in various books and journalist articles and the figures could be found through internet search. I give it a try:

    In a nutshell: Ukraine inherited weapons and ammo for an army 800.000 strong. They downsized to 100.000 and much of the surplus has been exported, sold in the arms black market, destroyed, or became unusable.

    There still would be enough to arm and keep supplied a 100.000 strong army, but for how long? War is almost 3 years now, and if they start rationing rockets, it means other types of ammunition will be consumed.


    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/16/world/europe/illsecured-soviet-arms-depots-tempting-rebels-and-terrorists.html

    Excerpts:

    Nowhere are these problems known to be more pronounced than in Ukraine. NATO and the Ukrainian military estimate that the Soviet military left 2.5 million tons of conventional munitions here as it withdrew soldiers and arms from Europe, as well as more than 7 million rifles, pistols, mortars and machine guns. The imbalance is deeply disproportionate; the Ukrainian military now numbers roughly 300,000.

    The surplus weapons and ammunition, some dating to World War I and stored in at least 184 military posts around the country, is packed in bunkers, locked in salt mines and sitting in the open air.

    Ukraine's munitions centers are filled beyond capacity, he wrote, leaving at least 60 percent of the ammunition exposed to the elements. Most of the ammunition has exceeded its shelf life. At least 15 percent is also unstable enough that it risks exploding from handling, electricity, heat or chemical reaction


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2573557/Flashback-Senator-Obama-pushed-destruction-15-000-TONS-ammunition-400-000-small-arms-1-000-anti-aircraft-missiles-Ukraine.html

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/13523260802239773?scroll=top&needAccess=true&journalCode=fcsp20

    http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/news_79035.htm

    This is from 2011

    Excerpts:


    Since 2006, the Alliance has helped the country destroy 1000 Man-portable Air Defence Systems (MANPADS), 15 000 tonnes of conventional ammunition (including small arms ammunition, artillery shells, cluster munitions and mortar rounds) and 400 000 small arms and light weapons (SALW).

    ...

    the project’s second phase aims to destroy 366 000 SALW, 76 000 tonnes of conventional ammunition and 3 million PfM-1 (anti-infantry high-explosive) antipersonnel mines.

    2 million tons is the total including small arms ammunition.

    This book gives more detailed data, some pages can be seen in google. Unable to find it for download though

    http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/publications/by-type/book-series/the-politics-of-destroying-surplus-small-arms.html

    Unfortunately it seems as if there's still enough ammunition left for a decade, but the research was worthwile to check if my estimates of the volume of artillery fire and ammo consumption are realistic, and confirms my view that the Novorussian daily briefings only give total number of shellings, not individual shells.

    I said a consumption of 10,000 tons or artillery ammo for 2016. Same if not higher for 2015, averaging the quiet periods post Minsk 2 and 3, with the winter battles culminating in Debaltsevo pocket. Perhaps double that for 2014.

    So there has been a consumption of 50.000 tons in 3 years of war. For artillery shells alone. And my estimates are based only using 20 kilos for each individual shells of 122mm caliber. The heavy artillery shells of 152mm caliber are 60 kilos each. If only 1 in every 5 shells fired is heavy caliber, that would drive up the figure to 75.000 tons.

    In addition, there is mortar fire. From what I see from the stats from January-June 2016, approx half of the shellings are done by mortars. The 81mm ones are just 4 kilos a round, but they are faster firing and consume more ammunition, if only because they are more numerous, than the 120mm mortars, whose
    rounds weigh 12 kilos. So that gives us an average weight of shot fired of 10 kilos. Assuming the volume of fire in number of shells fired is similar to the artillery and in fact should be higher, because there are more mortars than cannon, and are used more often, in a deliberate low estimate, I guess mortars have fired half the tonnage of the medium artillery. So to  the baseline of 50,000 tons of 122mm artillery add another 25,000 of mortar bombs.

    So total consumption, excluding rockets, would be around 100,000 tons.



    Dimensional analysis!

    So if we had 2 million tons usable ammunition in 1991, and the figure includes small arms cartridges and gunpowder charges  and most of it was sold or destroyed or became unusable, there would be 200.000 tons left by the start of the war. Assuming half of it was artillery ammunition, wich raises the interesting question, what adds up to more weight, shells or bullets?

    1 artillery shell of medium caliber (122mm) weighing  25  kilos equals 2 x cases of rifle ammo (5.45) or 2,000 rounds

    Cartridges are surprisingly heavy due to the density of lead, and they are consumed at an enormous rate. It would be interesting from a logistics and historical point of view, how much of a daily allotment of ammunition to a infantry division went to the artillery and how much it was small arms. I think from my lectures on the First World War that artillery gets the lion's share.


    From all these disarmament initiatives, emerges a clear pattern. The Ukraine's governments wanted to get rid of dangerous artillery shells to avoid explosions and sell the rifles, machineguns and their ammo to earn cash, while Western donors priority was the small arms to be destroyed to prevent them ending in the arms trade.


    So I believe a lot of artillery ammo was indeed recycled, it's harder to sell in the market. I will assume about half of the total was artillery, rockets and mortar rounds. That is 1 million in 1991.

    Looking for the ammo dump explosions, wich in one depot alone destroyed almost  45,000 tons, and there were more than a couple of them, I can estimate a loss of 100,000 tons for this cause alone.


    In this article about one of those explosions in 2004, said Ukraine destroyed ammunition at the pace of 20,000 tons a year, and they needed help

    http://www.rferl.org/a/1052874.html


    Polyakov says Ukraine can decommission about 23,000 tons of ammunition each year but needs to double or triple that capacity --something that Ukraine's feeble economy does not allow.

    So from 2004 to 2014, subtract another 200.000 tons


    From 1 million tons, substract 20% as being obsolete ammo dating back to WW2 or earlier and otherwise unusable due to age and corrosion (figures above say 15% was already unstable). 800k, minus 200k recycled in 20 years, minus 100k lost in explosions, minus 200k lost in Crimea and Donbass, where most of the ammo was moved anyway for recycling, minus 100K consumed, still gives 100K left for another six years of war.

    Clearly this cannot be, if at the start of the war there was ammo for 10 years, then the Ukrops would not have to curtail the use of rockets, and the shelling would be much more intense.

    Fortunately digging around I found how much was left by 2013

    https://day.kyiv.ua/en/article/economy/nato-and-utilization-ammunition-ukraine

    Excerpt:

    Actually our project is planned to destroy 133,000 tons in 12 years. This is only the Trust Fund’s portion. I believe this is at least double or triple of the required amount for destruction

    I believe, I think 10 years from now should be reasonable time to destroy these 200,000-300,000 tons of ammunition in Ukraine. And then you will go to normal conditions


    So there it is there were 300 kilotons of ammo of all kinds at the beginning of the war. Of wich about half are artillery munitions. That leaves 150 Kt, of wich already consumed 100.000 tons. So there are 50K of artillery ammunition remaining. At the present rate, just enough ammo for one year more. Less if there are major battles and rocket consumption is taken into account.

    This dimensional analysis is neccessarily crude, but I believe is quite approximate and gives an idea of the magnitudes involved. It does not take into account small arms ammo consumption, wich is not only cartridges for small arms up to 12.7mm , but also RPG rockets and 30mm grenades, and automatic cannon shells of 30mm. The consumption must also be enormous. Consider this. If the rebels could do just with ammo stockpiles in their territory, then why they reactivated the Lugansk cartridge works?


    So my feeling based on these calculations, the nature of the fighting, and the fact that Ukraine doesn't produce any ammunition and Lithuania sees it fit to send the junta a shipment of a paltry 150 tons of small arms ammo is that Soviet era ammunition reserves are mostly depleted by now. The Soviet Army ammunition dumps had a physical limit of how many ammo could be stored in the Ukraine military district. There was enough armo to keep supplied a 1 million strong army for 1 year of combat at most. Wartime reserves are calculated for a few months fighting. There's simply a limit to the storage space for ammo, fuel and food.

    PS Above calculations did not take into account projection charges, or in plainspeak, gunpowder. This roughly accounts for 1/2 or 1/3 of the shell weight, 10 kilos for a 122mm shell, and 25 kilos for a 152mm shell. So that would drive up by 50% the tonnage consumed, or conversely that amount should be detracted from the total remaining.

    Ukrops are low on ammunition, even if NATO can supply gunpowder and mortar bombs, they cannot receive new shells and rockets. Impossible to know how much they have left, but it's safe to say no more than for one year.


    Last edited by Ispan on Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total

    Khepesh
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  Khepesh on Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:28 am

    Well, I think my estimate of + or - 100,000 seems to fit, and that was rough calculation.

    Kerch yesterday

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  JohninMK on Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:05 pm

    Is that an air defence unit?

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  Benya on Wed Nov 30, 2016 12:21 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Is that an air defence unit?

    Yes, actually, an S-300V/V4 unit. If you stop the video at 1:26 you can see the radar of a TELAR, and right after that there comes a 9S19 "Imbir" radar.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  airstrike on Wed Nov 30, 2016 9:36 pm

    Video: Russian S-300 and Pantsir S-1 systems spotted in Crimea amid Ukrainian missile test

    http://defense-watch.com/2016/12/01/video-russian-s-300-pantsir-s-1-systems-spotted-crimea-amid-ukrainian-missile-test/

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  franco on Wed Nov 30, 2016 10:39 pm

    The S.300V has very good ballistic missile take down abilities. The Ukrainians apparently want to shot a modified SS.21 ballistic missile in a test.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  Khepesh on Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:01 pm

    First Zaporozhia, then Kharkov, then Moscow, Odessa, Dnepropetrovsk and today at the crossing at Stanitsa Luganskaya, a flashmob sings. Previously the songs were Russian-Cossack-Soviet, this is local to Donbass about coal miners. Oligarchs and "masters" will not like this from the real people, and I can see the huge smile on Mozgovoi's face as he looks down on this.


    Edit: And today even in Kiev with rather well known Komsomol song...


    Last edited by Khepesh on Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

    miketheterrible
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:56 pm

    The main looters of Ukraine have already left.
    http://stalkerzone.org/main-looters-ukraine-already-fled/

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  par far on Thu Dec 01, 2016 6:43 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:The main looters of Ukraine have already left.
    http://stalkerzone.org/main-looters-ukraine-already-fled/


    The people of Ukraine deserve this, for blindly and idiotically, following these assholes. Ukraine is not the problem of Russia and it should never become a problem for Russia. Ukraine is the problem of the EU, so let the EU have fun with that.

    US is trying to start crap with Russia again.

    https://southfront.org/breaking-new-war-in-europe-can-begin-today/


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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  Neutrality on Thu Dec 01, 2016 10:52 pm

    Some people will say that the people aren't responsible, they couldn't have known, they were deceived and etc. Well boo-fucking-hoo.

    I have the impression a very large amount of Ukrainians (still) support Maidan, just watch Sharij's video. He made several videos interviewing Kiev residents, asking what good the revolution brought. People would answer with "good perspectives, hope, bright future, these-reforms-take-time.

    No one should be surprised why these assholes are still in power when they still have support. Thus let come whatever it is that's coming at them. Perhaps when utilities cost them 3-times their salaries maybe that's when they'll realize something doesn't add up.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  Khepesh on Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:04 pm

    There was a third flashmob yesterday, this one in Lipetsk where they sung "Chervona Ruta" in Ukrainian.

    After singing in Kiev they chanted "No war!" and in the context not of "peace creeps" but of no war between the same people. There are two messages in these flashmobs. One is of solidarity with brothers, the other is that to sings songs that can be associated with another "side" in fact shows they we do not sing their songs and they do not sing our songs, because all these songs are OUR songs. To identify Ukraine as an enemy state is to legitimize Ukraine as a valid state and not the product of treason. With exceptions in Galicia and Transcarpathia, to identify Ukrainians as an enemy is to legitimize the false divisions created by politicians, internal and external. To turn back on Ukraine and say it is the problem of EU is to hand Ukraine to a foreign power and will compound the treason of 1991. At the very least, all the territory that is under the historical description "Novorossiya", from Kharkov to Odessa, is Russia, and not less so than Crimea or all the land from Kazan to Vladivostok, and Rostov, Azov and all Kuban. Is the expansion begun by Ivan IV valid, yet that under Catherine the Great invalid? It cannot be that Krasnodar is Russian yet Odessa is not.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  franco on Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:36 pm

    Interfax News 20:05
    Over 20 people killed in hostilities in DPR in Nov, 3 of them civilians - DPR ombudsman's office

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  franco on Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:08 pm

    Interesting side notes on the Ukrainian missile tests. Out of 16 S.300 PT and PS missiles launched, at least two had to self destruct.
    300 PT and PS grade SAM missiles have not been made in years. Both are past due their shelf life and have to be rebuilt to get life extensions. This testing by the Ukrainians was to check if these life extensions performed by them without parts and assistance from the Russians would work. So a 87.5% success rate was achieved.

    As a side note, these S.300PS systems being given to Belarus and other allies are arriving with missiles after receiving 5 year life extensions. And those left in Russia also require life extensions or retirement. Another reason the S.400 is needed asap.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  Khepesh on Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:29 pm

    There have been a lot more flashmobs, in Ukraine, Donbass and Russia. Not going to make habit of posting all of them, just this latest one from Blagoveshchensk in Amur as it is one of the best renditions of Ukranian song, "You lied to me" that I have heard, and singing is in fact led by professional singer. In the last few days there has been poison injected into this phenomena by some questioning the motives, even locations and suggesting there are fakes. Well, oligarchs and politicians have money and power and don't like "the people" when they act "out of control" with the "wrong message"......

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  auslander on Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:34 pm

    For those who don't understand Russian, here's one that has partial subtitles for this song and another version, both by Kuban Kossak Choir.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtQybtRlLuk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdPvaIXxm4Q

    This phenomenon of spontaneous singing starting in Ukraine and spreading across both Ukraine and Russia has to be driving TPTB in Ukraine nuts as most are sung in Russian. However, at this time for reasons we all understand Porky will not send in his goons to break up the singing and gathering. That being said in some that my lass has been watching you can see the fear in some passersby as they scurry away from the event. I don't have links to what she's watching but there's a bunch of them now.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  auslander on Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:00 pm

    live in Moldova, heck of a crowd, been singing for a while:

    http://uncle-vania.ga

    Link to almost 20 minutes of song in Moldova train station.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_ckdVjvSck

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:37 pm

    auslander wrote:For those who don't understand Russian, here's one that has partial subtitles for this song and another version, both by Kuban Kossak Choir.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtQybtRlLuk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdPvaIXxm4Q

    This phenomenon of spontaneous singing starting in Ukraine and spreading across both Ukraine and Russia has to be driving TPTB in Ukraine nuts as most are sung in Russian. However, at this time for reasons we all understand Porky will not send in his goons to break up the singing and gathering. That being said in some that my lass has been watching you can see the fear in some passersby as they scurry away from the event. I don't have links to what she's watching but there's a bunch of them now.

    this is grand! The people are finally expressing their anger over Kiev's junta. But we all know singing wont lead to anything. Just oligarchs hiring goons to make more people mysteriously fall out a window.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  kvs on Sun Dec 04, 2016 11:42 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:
    auslander wrote:For those who don't understand Russian, here's one that has partial subtitles for this song and another version, both by Kuban Kossak Choir.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtQybtRlLuk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdPvaIXxm4Q

    This phenomenon of spontaneous singing starting in Ukraine and spreading across both Ukraine and Russia has to be driving TPTB in Ukraine nuts as most are sung in Russian. However, at this time for reasons we all understand Porky will not send in his goons to break up the singing and gathering. That being said in some that my lass has been watching you can see the fear in some passersby as they scurry away from the event. I don't have links to what she's watching but there's a bunch of them now.

    this is grand!  The people are finally expressing their anger over Kiev's junta.  But we all know singing wont lead to anything.  Just oligarchs hiring goons to make more people mysteriously fall out a window.

    The problem for the turdi-garchs is that their social engineering experiment is likely to undergo a phase transition. They can intimidate individuals and even
    groups of individuals, but they cannot intimidate the whole population at once. Revolutions, real ones, are associated with such phase transitions. A
    spontaneous alignment of mindset among the masses.

    However, as noted above the population is still deluded since they drank the propaganda koolaid and liked the taste. So now they are waiting for
    the Maidan "revolution" to succeed. They can wait for the rest of time. But reality is rapidly seeping in as the economy swirls the toilet bowl
    and there is an epic non-delivery on all the promises. Also, barking at Russia gets old and the current junta has been a one-note Johnny in this
    regard. The current Kiev junta is indeed a sick joke. They can extol Hitler, but their regime is a mud hut side show compared to what Germany
    had in the 1930s.

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  Cowboy's daughter on Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:32 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    auslander wrote:For those who don't understand Russian, here's one that has partial subtitles for this song and another version, both by Kuban Kossak Choir.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtQybtRlLuk

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdPvaIXxm4Q

    This phenomenon of spontaneous singing starting in Ukraine and spreading across both Ukraine and Russia has to be driving TPTB in Ukraine nuts as most are sung in Russian. However, at this time for reasons we all understand Porky will not send in his goons to break up the singing and gathering. That being said in some that my lass has been watching you can see the fear in some passersby as they scurry away from the event. I don't have links to what she's watching but there's a bunch of them now.

    this is grand!  The people are finally expressing their anger over Kiev's junta.  But we all know singing wont lead to anything.  Just oligarchs hiring goons to make more people mysteriously fall out a window.

    I saw the first two, but not the last two mentioned /posted. Thanks guys! They're grand! cheers

    Cowboy's daughter
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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  Cowboy's daughter on Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:39 am

    Patrick Lancaster ‏@PLnewstoday 6h6 hours ago

    #Ukraine near Kiev: 5 police officers have been shot and killed by other police officers in a assumed case of "mistaken identity"

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    Re: The Situation in the Ukraine. #26

    Post  Sponsored content Today at 12:54 pm


      Current date/time is Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:54 pm