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    Question Thread: Russian Army

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    GarryB

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    Re: Question Thread: Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:59 am

    The original Kornet was about 5.5km range during daylight and about 3-4km at night due to the performance of the thermal night vision viewer.

    The new model has two missiles... one fitted with an anti armour HEAT warhead with a range of about 8.5km and a one with a thermobaric (HE) warhead with a range of 10km.

    The real question is the performance of the control system and missiles... could the old missiles perform better in the newer launcher... it is certainly unlikely the old launcher could guide the new missiles to their max range, but could the old missiles reach further with better optics and improved guidance system of the newer launcher?
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    medo

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    Re: Question Thread: Russian Army

    Post  medo on Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:23 am

    GarryB wrote:The original Kornet was about 5.5km range during daylight and about 3-4km at night due to the performance of the thermal night vision viewer.

    The new model has two missiles... one fitted with an anti armour HEAT warhead with a range of about 8.5km and a one with a thermobaric (HE) warhead with a range of 10km.

    The real question is the performance of the control system and missiles... could the old missiles perform better in the newer launcher... it is certainly unlikely the old launcher could guide the new missiles to their max range, but could the old missiles reach further with better optics and improved guidance system of the newer launcher?

    The original thermal imager for portable launcher is quite old technology now. New thermal imagers now have far longer range than the old ones and using old Kornet missile on the new launcher on Tigr-M Will enable it to use at max range both day and night. AFAIK new Kornet-D on Tigr-M doesn't have any limitations in night use. Thermal imager in Pantsir also see target at 20 km range. Of course it depend on the size of target and contrast behind it. But there is a good question, if portable Kornet launcher got newer thermal imager or they still receive the old one.
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    dino00

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    Re: Question Thread: Russian Army

    Post  dino00 on Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:00 pm

    But the 5.5km range is from kornet E(export), and the 8.5 and 10 km are for kornet EM (also export) i would think the domestic version would have increased range.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Question Thread: Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:52 am

    I have never seen domestic model ranges for any model Kornet.

    I don't know if they are different or not...

    Note downgraded export models are standard for many makers of weapons, Russia and the Soviet Union included, but since the 2000s most customers that bought Russian stuff bought from the Russian military or joint developed, so they weren't getting the downgraded export models... in fact the UAE got up to date Pantsirs better than anything offered to the Russian military previously... simply because they paid for the better components.

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    dino00

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    Re: Question Thread: Russian Army

    Post  dino00 on Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:24 am

    GarryB wrote:I have never seen domestic model ranges for any model Kornet.

    I don't know if they are different or not...

    Note downgraded export models are standard for many makers of weapons, Russia and the Soviet Union included, but since the 2000s most customers that bought Russian stuff bought from the Russian military or joint developed, so they weren't getting the downgraded export models... in fact the UAE got up to date Pantsirs better than anything offered to the Russian military previously... simply because they paid for the better components.


    Garry
    About the pantsir Mindstorm had explained years ago, and was the only version that made sense, that UAE didn`t get a version better than Russian army, but just better than the one they will get...
    Kornet is a tricky thing...there is nothing about the domestic version, but if the export version have that range, the domestic has to be better
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    GarryB

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    Re: Question Thread: Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:41 am

    About the pantsir Mindstorm had explained years ago, and was the only version that made sense, that UAE didn`t get a version better than Russian army, but just better than the one they will get...

    The Russian military were happy with Pantsir. It was the UAE that demanded and paid for each component to be upgraded to Pantsir-S1 level.

    Kornet is a tricky thing...there is nothing about the domestic version, but if the export version have that range, the domestic has to be better

    Why?

    The Su-30MKI is way better than the Su-30M, which is not that much more than an Su-27UB with minor upgrades.

    The Su-30MKI introduced a lot of new technology... from lots of countries.

    Sometimes the technology was available from Russian sources but the international equipment was better and sometimes the Russian stuff was better but was not for export...

    The development of the Su-30MKI with the Indians actually taught the people at Sukhoi about new ideas and new features for their planes... likely encouraging them to make the Su-35 even better than it would be if they had just sold Su-30s.

    I suspect the only longer ranged Kornet-M would be air launched models.. especially from UAVs where their lack of trailing wires and supersonic speed would be of enormous benefit.

    I understand that they do have export models with reduced performance, but I have never seen an "extended range" domestic model for anti tank guided missiles... I mean Sagger has a range of 3km... the upgraded Malyutka-2 also has a range of 3km... surely considering its age they could release the domestic 4km range model... or whatever its range is...

    The advantage of the Konkurs and faggot was that they had better range and simpler better guidance, but they are given export ranges of 4km and 2.5km respectively.

    Are you suggesting that all these models had longer range domestic models that are still so secret that their new upgrades for export still don't match the domestic models range performance?

    I suspect the ranges were the same and the actual difference was launchers and electronics that were better in the domestic models at the time.
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    dino00

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    Re: Question Thread: Russian Army

    Post  dino00 on Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:24 pm

    It they don`t have kornet with greater range why export a missile with 10km range... Why don`t stop just at 5 or 6 km.
    The Russians have domestic missilles that they don`t show for a long time (kh-101)
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    Hole

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    Re: Question Thread: Russian Army

    Post  Hole on Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:32 pm

    10km is only good against air targets. 5 - 6km is optimal against ground targets. In most enviroments you won´t see any further.
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    medo

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    Re: Question Thread: Russian Army

    Post  medo on Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:05 pm

    Hole wrote:10km is only good against air targets. 5 - 6km is optimal against ground targets. In most enviroments you won´t see any further.

    Depends on the environment, where you use them. SAA successfully use new Tigr-M based Kornet missiles at 8 to 10 km range against terrorist targets in northern Hama, what was very painful for terrorists as SAA destroy terrorist concentrations behind front line, where they are getting ready for offensive operation.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Question Thread: Russian Army

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:41 am

    It they don`t have kornet with greater range why export a missile with 10km range... Why don`t stop just at 5 or 6 km.

    That is a feature of the system and part of the reasons it sells so well...

    Let me ask you why produce two types of the same weapon so that the domestic model is slightly better?

    Do you think if the Ukrainian regime gets a hold of some that the pro Russian Ukrainians will be OK because their missiles reach 1km further and penetrate 10cm more armour?

    Whether it reaches 8.5km or 10km or 12km it is a very capable and dangerous system and they are fairly careful as to whom they sell to.

    But at the end of the day you can't stop enemy forces getting something that will be dangerous against you.

    Rather than a range issue I would expect the domestic Kornet to have a better IR system with better algorithms for more precise inflight control of the missile to the target... it would make them more useful in actually finding targets in the first place and getting hits on target.

    The Russians have domestic missilles that they don`t show for a long time (kh-101)

    Quite true but in the case of cruise missiles there are international agreements that limit the range and warhead weight of exported missiles... hense Yakhont/Brahmos don't have the range of Onyx despite being based on its design.

    10km is only good against air targets. 5 - 6km is optimal against ground targets. In most enviroments you won´t see any further.

    There would be a lot of exceptions of course but clever use of terrain could allow positioning on a hillside that overlooks a long valley the enemy might need to drive down where targets can be engaged at extended range. Indeed the whole point of long range ATGMs is to use them where there range is useful.

    If it is in an urban area where you can't see more than 500m then RPG-29 makes more sense, or in the case of 2km visibility limits then the lighter cheaper more mobile Metis-M1 makes more sense.


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