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    Development of Ekranoplans

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:17 pm

    These multi-role craft actually will save $ as they can do jobs of MPA/ISR/ASW/S&R aircraft, missile/patrol/transport ships, while hard to detect & destroy. They may carry UUVs/UAVs as well. And they can move between fleets faster by flying over land w/o the need of going via the other seas. In the North & over icy lakes & rivers, they won't need icebreakers.
    Gibraltar
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    Post  Gibraltar on Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:52 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Gibraltar wrote:Very fashinating items but last kind of things to spend big money in a moment of navy extreme needs for modern units in basic roles.


    depending what are extreme needs now? small ASW corvettes? missile ships?

    Carriers, cruisers, destroiers, at least 2 full battle groups + some reserve. Even in best hypotesis they revive the third Kirov and won't need other cruisers for two decades, they need a couple of modern carriers leaving Kuznetsov for mediterranean theatre. And at least 7-8 active modern destroyers. Gorshkov class is an almost already outdated design with only 1 unit in active service. I think they need to complete first their surface fleet and only then dedicate themselfs in exotics crafts
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:22 am

    Carriers, cruisers, destroyers, at least 2 full battle groups + some reserve. Even in best hypothesis they revive the third Kirov and won't need other cruisers for two decades, they need a couple of modern carriers leaving Kuznetsov for Mediterranean theater.
    All those ships take more $ & time to build, maintain & operate than ekranoplans; they don't absolutely need a CBG in the Med. Sea now nor elsewhere in the foreseeable future. For that, their economy must be on a par with Japan's, with global interests to defend.
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Nov 12, 2018 11:57 pm

    Gibraltar wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Gibraltar wrote:Very fashinating items but last kind of things to spend big money in a moment of navy extreme needs for modern units in basic roles.


    depending what are extreme needs now? small ASW corvettes?  missile ships?

    Carriers, cruisers, destroiers, at least 2 full battle groups + some reserve. Even in best hypotesis they revive the third Kirov and won't need other cruisers for two decades, they need a couple of modern carriers leaving Kuznetsov for mediterranean theatre. And at least 7-8 active modern destroyers. Gorshkov class is an almost already outdated design with only 1 unit in active service. I think they need to complete first their surface fleet and only then dedicate themselfs in exotics crafts

    well why would you need carriers when you cannot keep your backyard safe? First of all why dilemma erkanoplanes or ships. Russia needs effective means to detect/destroy subs. US SSBNs are the main navel thereat for Russia not CSGs. Erkanoplanes can (but not only them f course) be a good platform to ASW and SAR operations over Pacific/Arctic seas.

    Cheap in maintenance, faster than helicopters, range like long range aircraft. Why Mediterranean needs CSG? for Syria like wars you dont need anything top. To fight with NATO there? regardless what you gonna send youre dead. If you look for naval confrontation.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:28 am

    The fundamental problem with Ekranoplans is that they operate most efficiently at very low altitudes... which limits their top speed, and their fuel efficiency when using jet engines.

    Very simply for most jet powered aircraft operating at medium to high altitudes means operating in cold thin air where jet engines are much more efficient and the drag is lower so higher speeds are easier to achieve. Also there are no storms at 15 thousand metres while flying at 15 metres there are plenty of storms and indeed freak waves that could spell disaster.

    For any subsonic mission like transport or carrying enormous loads it makes sense, but much of the time a more conventional aircraft design would probably make rather more sense.

    Regarding an MPA design where the aircraft could actually land on the water surface and drop dipping sonar to find enemy vessels that would be a serious money saver because disposable Bouys are expensive because they need a reasonable level of sensitivity... whereas a reusable dipping sonar can be super expensive because it will be reused multiple times...
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:37 pm

    One is sure, there are programs to build ekranoplanes. How they will be used this is another question. SAR/ASW would be most interesting potential applications:

    - enormous range/fuel efficiency more than any aircraft of its size

    - decent speed - much higher than any existing helo - 500-750 km/h

    - can land on water (at least Russian ones could;-)


    SAR to getquick to sinking ship and pick up crew is clear, ASW - torpedos can do nothing against it (not sure about sub-harpoons for something flying with speed 700km/h ;-) ,can have anything torpedos, bombs, buoys...search equipment .


    Attack version? this depends on what navy needs. Imagine with 8 ZIrcons and can get to position 600km away form shore base in 1 hr or less. 22800 needs for thsi 10-12 hours with max speed.



    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:59 pm

    It can also lay mines, destroy mines, drop/pick up SF & patrol/enforce EEZs. In the Antarctic, it can fly over its icy coast & glaciers faster with more cargo than planes between stations.
    Cyberspec
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:27 am

    The general direktor of "NPP Radar mmc" talking about heavy ekranoplans under the development with max take off weight of up to 800t...sorry no subs available but there are some animations...apart from the usual military applications, they can be used for SAR, Firefighting and so on

    magnumcromagnon
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    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:50 am

    Cyberspec wrote:The general direktor of "NPP Radar mmc" talking about heavy ekranoplans under the development with max take off weight of up to 800t...sorry no subs available but there are some animations...apart from the usual military applications, they can be used for SAR, Firefighting and so on


    Correction Cyberspec...they were talking about a max payload of 800 tons not max take off weight. Wink The new max payload is now 1,000 tons, and the max take off weight is 2,500 tons. Shocked


    At the same time, the company did not specify which project was in question. Previously, she led the development of the Be-2500 superheavy seaplane with a planned maximum payload of up to 1000 tons, a maximum take-off weight of 2500 tons, a wingspan of 125.5 m, a length of 115.5 m, a maximum speed of 800 km and a predicted flight range of 16,000 km.

    Development of Ekranoplans - Page 5 1570180043_132

    https://topwar.ru/163186-vodnyj-monstr-al-masdar-ocenilo-novuju-amfibiju-berieva.html
    kvs
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    Post  kvs on Sun Oct 06, 2019 3:06 am

    The concept is cool, but I have questions about its practicality. One of the reasons from flying high is to avoid the planetary boundary
    layer (PBL) turbulence and the convective turbulence. Unless the ekranoplan is massive like a large cruise ship, it will be bounced around
    quite a bit to the point that under conditions it can crash. I am assuming they are going to fly over land and not just water, this implies
    all sorts of thermal plumes that are not there over water. (The PBL is thinner over water bodies than over land).

    High altitude (above tropopause) dirigibles carrying 10,000+ tons seem like a better path to develop. A dirigible should be able to
    ascend almost vertically and can reduce its exposure to extreme wind effects.

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:37 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Cyberspec wrote:The general direktor of "NPP Radar mmc" talking about heavy ekranoplans under the development with max take off weight of up to 800t...sorry no subs available but there are some animations...apart from the usual military applications, they can be used for SAR, Firefighting and so on


    Correction Cyberspec...they were talking about a max payload of 800 tons not max take off weight. Wink The new max payload is now 1,000 tons, and the max take off weight is 2,500 tons. Shocked


    They are two different projects... one from the 80s with max takeoff weight 2500 tons, and the new one with max takeoff weight at 800-1000 tons.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:26 pm

    I agree with KVS... on paper the Ekranoplans seem like a good idea with the very low drag, but when you factor in that jet engines are less effective at the very low altitudes these aircraft have to fly, and that the air is much thicker limiting top speed as well as engine efficiency... not to mention having to fly through the weather... which can be a serious issue too in some places... I think enormous airships could be rather more promising.

    We have made great strides in design and technology and issues like fire can be reduced simply by purging the air between the internal bags of lifting hydrogen gas with nitrogen, and using fuel cell technology to convert between lifting gas and water ballast.... and with electric motor propulsion and battery technology or even hydrogen fuelled gas turbine engines and all electric drives and even solar panels... you could make it very cheap to run.

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