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    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:46 pm

    These ships are are supposed to be configured for each mission type beforehand. But not for every single type of mission simultaneously.

    Anti-air and CIVS setup are fixed.

    There is standard anti-sub functionality with Paket-M and anti-ship with Uran.

    Everything else depends on mission type.

    Anti-sub ability is expanded by adding helicopter (this would be most frequently used option).

    Or

    Heavy duty anti-ship or land attack option is added by loading Kalibr/Oniks container.


    I think that after using Steregushi corvettes for a while they noticed that they spend most of their time looking for subs and with Gremashi being tight on space and expensive Navy decided to keep Uran as standard anti-ship option and go with modular approach for stuff they don't do as often (land attack and large scale anti-ship warfare)

    IMO land attack is something these ships are least likely to ever do.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:24 pm

    /\ /\ /\
    I generally agree with the above.

    Don't forget the special operations missions with the special motor boats.

    The area below the flight deck on this class is very spacious for the size of the vessel. That area can be used for a number of things.
    All we know thus far is that it can hold a mix of helicopter/Kalibr containers/assault boats/variable depth towed sonar.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:27 pm

    Indeed they used land attack cruise missiles from corvettes in Syria but then when their larger ships all have UKSK launchers then the need for using corvettes for such missions is greatly reduced if not eliminated.

    They seem to be upgrading their larger vessels with newer electronics and sensors, so when they are running low on Granits and Shipwrecks then I rather suspect the existing launch tubes will get liners for Onyx and Calibr...

    Personally I think the best thing they could do is develop a container that can operate afloat in the ocean... put a few on a container ship and sail past an enemy coastline and drop a container or 5 into the water to sink to the bottom... do it in the middle of the night and make sure the gaps are filled by morning and then after a month or two or after a fixed period of time have one float to the surface and launch its missiles and self destruct and then permanently sink... rinse and repeat...

    The current systems have missiles but there is no reason why some can't have torpedos or self deploying sea mines...
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    Rmf

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Rmf on Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:24 pm

    not so fast , this have larger displacement , there seems to be room around that big calibr container i wonder why they didnt widen the rear part of corvette bit more so 2 containers can be stored.... this way you can have 4 caliber missiles OR helicopter ,only.
    second those uran is lenghty yet seems small in the superstructure ,and onyx is 3m more. there was room for onyx there mid part of ship , so why uran? 8 onyx beats urans every time.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:12 am

    The gap in the superstructure means you could either have two quad launchers for Uran angled and sitting on top of the deck firing sideways, or you could fit a UKSK launcher there that fills the hull to the keel that pretty much blocks movement from the front to the rear of the ship... you can't walk through the UKSK tubes...

    Uran is already good enough... and likely cheap enough.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:12 pm

    Here's some stuff about the Zaslon (Barrier) radar system (I think it didn't get linked previously?)
    http://www.zaslon.com/ru/node/55

    Yandex Translate wrote:Multifunctional radar complex rlk MF "Barrier" is intended for:


    • lighting air, surface and electronic environment of the active channels of the radar X and S bands and passive channels in the L, S, C, X, Ku bands of wavelengths with the coordination of their work is adaptive to the current situation and priorities of the vehicle;
    • setting jamming (in X, Ku frequency bands) and the control means of the passive jamming;
    • the issuance of CO to weapon control systems;
    • control of ship gun mounts.

    Additionally, MF rlk "Barrier" may provide radio monitoring in HF and VHF ranges of wavelengths.

    MF radar complex "Zaslon" provides the following tasks

    • Search, detection and tracking of air targets, small low-flying targets, surface targets, shore objectives Radiocontrast.
    • Automatic recognition and classification of targets.
    • Detection of radiation sources, recognition of classes and types of radio-emitting, including in the far zone.
    • Assessment and analysis of radio electronic situation, the definition of coordinates of sources of interference.
    • Active electronic countermeasures.
    • Control means passive jamming.
    • Weapon control.
    • Information support in the interests of the flying fighter, attack aircraft, deck-based helicopter, performing a patrol and search and rescue tasks.
    • Automated health monitoring and Troubleshooting.
    • Documenting the results of information processing, developed solutions and status of interfaced systems.
    • Training personnel in a simulated environment.

    The use of MF in RFCs "Barrier" electronic scanning days, special modes and algorithms review of capture and tracking of targets ensures fast response time, high throughput, high precision targeting, and therefore, the opportunity of effective use of the capabilities of the interfaced systems.

    MF radar complex "Zaslon" has considerable potential for modernization, in the construction of its component parts is the possibility of changes in the composition of the equipment and tasks depending on the target destination of the ship. Possible MLF rlk "Barrier" are adapted to perform various functions in battle circuits.
    Someone on Balancer forum says there is a test setup on the shore of lake Lagoda but indicated it's far from ready.
    Pretty sure this same system is intended for 20385 also.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:11 pm

    For those who didn't see them previously:
    Page of good pics of the 20386 model at IMDS 2015 http://nevskii-bastion.ru/20386-imds-2015/


    Again from IMDS 2015 this time pics of Zaslon radars http://bastion-karpenko.ru/zaslon-mvms-2015/


    They quote detection of 1m^2 RCS at only 75km, seems kinda short?
    All the multi-frequency integrated ECM/jamming etc capability is a bit wasted with a relatively short detection range, maybe a more simple (& cheaper) system would have sufficed?

    Edit: found this regarding the range thing http://paralay.iboards.ru/viewtopic.php?p=482514&sid=e7daaed26265869f1da7a26de39eddfb#p482514
    Google translate wrote:if ESR = 1kv.m. at 75km, the EPR = 10kv.m. 75 * 1.78 = 133,5km ... if ESR = 0,1kv.m is 75 / 1.78 = 42,1km ... if the EPR = 0.01 42.1 / 1.78 = 23, 7 km
    I have no idea if the maths is correct but if so 0.01m^2 at 23.7km will be further than radar horizon so I guess that's adequate for picking up a sea skimmer as soon as it crosses the radar horizon.

    hoom

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    20386 is using nearly the same radar setup as 20385 except superstructure mounted in 20386.

    Post  hoom on Wed Feb 08, 2017 4:39 pm

    20386 is using nearly the same radar setup as 20385 except superstructure mounted in 20386.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  George1 on Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:49 pm

    Construction of second project 20386 corvette to start in 2018

    The new corvette may be equipped with Kalibr missiles

    ST. PETERSBURG, June 28. /TASS/. The construction of the second project 20386 corvette is planned to start in 2018 in St. Petersburg, Director General of the Almaz Central Marine Design Bureau, Alexander Shlyakhtenko, told TASS.

    "There are such plans for the next year," he said, answering a question on the construction terms for the second ship.

    Read also
    Russian hi-tech firm to unveil concept of new corvette armed with 24 cruise missiles

    As he put it, the new project 20386 differs a lot from the basic project 20380: its seakeeping performance and habitability have been improved. "This is a totally new step: the project’s habitability has been improved. It has an amazing modularity, which concerns everything, mainly armaments. We can incorporate a diving system, mine-disposal weapons and antisubmarine weapons into it," he enumerated.

    Shlyakhtenko added that the new corvette may be equipped with Kalibr missiles.

    The construction of the pilot ship of the series - the Derzky - started at the end of 2016 at the Northern Shipyard. It is expected to be delivered to the fleet in 2021.

    Russian Navy Deputy Commander-in-Chief Viktor Bursuk earlier said that the Russian Navy plans to receive more than 10 corvettes of the new 20386 project.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/953705

    hoom

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:39 am

    20386 3d CAD interior


    Whole heap more Gremy launching pics http://foto-i-mir.ru/20385-gremyaschiy-170630-1/ & http://foto-i-mir.ru/20385-gremyaschiy-170630-2/
    Poster


    2nd ship in progress?


    chicken

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  chicken on Mon Jul 03, 2017 7:15 am

    hoom wrote:20386 3d CAD interior



    If I recall, the bow VLS is UKSK, and there's supposedly Redut VLS beside the helicoptar pad. But I can't find it. Any chance the front is Redut and there's no UKSK but Uran behind the superstructure?

    hoom

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:41 am

    20385 has UKSK forward, Redut on the sides aft of the hangar.
    20386 has Redut forward, Uran in that slot in the middle, Kalibr via containers through the hatch aft.
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    PapaDragon

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    20386 3d CAD interior

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jul 03, 2017 3:07 pm

    hoom wrote:20385 has UKSK forward, Redut on the sides aft of the hangar.
    20386 has Redut forward, Uran in that slot in the middle, Kalibr via containers through the hatch aft.

    They said that second 20386 should be fitted with UKSK. There should be plenty of space to squeeze them in that middle slot where Uran currently is
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Isos on Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:59 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    hoom wrote:20385 has UKSK forward, Redut on the sides aft of the hangar.
    20386 has Redut forward, Uran in that slot in the middle, Kalibr via containers through the hatch aft.

    They said that second 20386 should be fitted with UKSK. There should be plenty of space to squeeze them in that middle slot where Uran currently is

    It can have it in a container under the deck. Uran is a cheap solution for anti shipping.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:55 pm

    Isos wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    hoom wrote:20385 has UKSK forward, Redut on the sides aft of the hangar.
    20386 has Redut forward, Uran in that slot in the middle, Kalibr via containers through the hatch aft.

    They said that second 20386 should be fitted with UKSK. There should be plenty of space to squeeze them in that middle slot where Uran currently is

    It can have it in a container under the deck. Uran is a cheap solution for anti shipping.

    I know but they want to replace Uran with UKSK like they did with Gremashi class. Container remains as a bonus.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:53 am

    UKSK means anti sub as well as anti ship and land attack weapons so it is also more flexible.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Wed Jul 05, 2017 4:07 pm

    via Balancer 'how to fix 20386' Laughing

    hoom

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:15 am

    Pics of the 20386 model from IMDS http://foto-i-mir.ru/20386-imds-2017/




    A few changes as well as the round radar dome in the tripod:
    Much better firing arcs for the AK-630s (& 2 of them)
    Bit more superstructure above the bridge windows
    Perhaps more interesting is to count the radar rectangles forward vs aft, the big horizontal bottom one isn't there on the rear Shocked
    Actually I checked older model & that is same, but the HD render has it both ends.
    So I'm thinking that may represent a surface radar which would then be probably what the similar panels on Karakurt are for.
    But then the 20385 mast has them both front & back

    Technically doesn't preclude it being a surface radar & just a cost saving removing rear panels from the newer designs (but why not also remove the rear ones from 20385?)

    Edit: 2015 model pics here for comparison http://nevskii-bastion.ru/20386-imds-2015/
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    George1

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  George1 on Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:02 am

    Article on 20386 project (half corvette/half frigate)

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/173847.html
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 02, 2017 1:37 pm

    George1 wrote:Article on 20386 project (half corvette/half frigate)

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/173847.html

    I only glanced trough this but judging from last paragraph author sounds like someone strangled his cats because of this ship.

    Or am I interpreting it wrong?

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  miroslav on Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:53 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    George1 wrote:Article on 20386 project (half corvette/half frigate)

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/173847.html

    I only glanced trough this but judging from last paragraph author sounds like someone strangled his cats because of this ship.

    Or am I interpreting it wrong?

    He is mostly right on all the points (my look on it as well).

    1. The anti ship weapons system is not adequate for a ship of that size (frigate), maybe for an 65 - 80 m corvette/FAC but not for an 105-110 m frigate, especially considering the idea that all combat ships should have a UKSK launcher (that was the whole point from the beginning).
    2. Increase from 12 to 16 SAM missile is not much (compared to the basic 20380).
    3. It has a 76 mm main gun not a 100 mm one.
    4. A single Pantsir (or equivalent) module would be better that 2 AK630, but it is still OK that it has an artillery based CIWS, if it turns out that it will have only one AK630, than it's SHIT in that way as well.
    5. It has to chose between a Helicopter and a 4 long range missile container carrier, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE AND OUTRIGHT IDIOTIC, without a helicopter it cant carry out effective anti submarine operation, and with just 4 long range missile of the Kalibr family it cant do much offensively, THIS IS THE REASON IT SHOULD HAVE HAD A REAL UKSK LAUNCHER IN THE FIRST PLACE, then most other problems would not mater.

    Perceived positives:
    1. It has a many new technologies -> long testing phase with not that many bangs for the given bucks as the Muricans would say.
    2. Modular design ->  not at the expense of main fire power and lets not forget that Russia NEEDS COMBAT SHIPS, meaning ships that can sink other ships, escort convoys etc. Russia does not have the means or the resources to waste them on stuff that cant to the basic tasks effectively.
    3. Supports special operations missions -> not at the expense of main fire power.
    4. More endurance -> useless if it's not coupled with adequate main fire power.
    5. Cost effective -> based on entirely on the word of politicians.
    6. It looks futuristic -> has nothing to do with actual effectiveness.
    7. Its stealth -> its shit, the type that sits on an asphalt road roasted by the hot July sun.


    Conclusion: The 20385 and ESPECIALLY THE 11356 are far better ships, able to do the main tasks far more efficiently.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:21 pm

    I rearranged your post so I can answer more elegantly, hope you don't mind.

    First, I am neither praising nor criticizing this ship because nobody really knows what it will contain. Just look at early images and specs for Karakurt and then compare it to what is actually built. Quite a few improvements.  

    So I will need to see this thing first before making a proper opinion.

    miroslav wrote:....
    He is mostly right on all the points (my look on it as well).

    1. The anti ship weapons system is not adequate for a ship of that size (frigate), maybe for an 65 - 80 m corvette/FAC but not for an 105-110 m frigate, especially considering the idea that all combat ships should have a UKSK launcher (that was the whole point from the beginning).

    5. It has to chose between a Helicopter and a 4 long range missile container carrier, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE AND OUTRIGHT IDIOTIC, without a helicopter it cant carry out effective anti submarine operation, and with just 4 long range missile of the Kalibr family it cant do much offensively, THIS IS THE REASON IT SHOULD HAVE HAD A REAL UKSK LAUNCHER IN THE FIRST PLACE, then most other problems would not mater.

    2. Modular design ->  not at the expense of main fire power and lets not forget that Russia NEEDS COMBAT SHIPS, meaning ships that can sink other ships, escort convoys etc. Russia does not have the means or the resources to waste them on stuff that cant to the basic tasks effectively.....

    Main purpose of Russian surface navy is to go after enemy subs. They will never be able to stand up to surface navy the size of American one and they know it.

    Helicopter is main armament here, not guns or missiles because helicopter is most effective anti-sub tool.

    And they did say that later ships will be getting UKSK. Which leads me to next point:

    miroslav wrote:.....
    4. A single Pantsir (or equivalent) module would be better that 2 AK630, but it is still OK that it has an artillery based CIWS, if it turns out that it will have only one AK630, than it's SHIT in that way as well.....

    Like I said at the begining we don't know what final product will look like and even more importantly, we don't know what next hull will have because they have proven history of making changes to serial ships:

    Steregushi went from having Kashtan on first ship to Redut AA on all others.

    Karakurt went from having AK630 on first two to Pantsir on third one.

    Two new Molonyas were totally redesigned without even a peep in the news.

    miroslav wrote:
    Perceived positives:
    1. It has a many new technologies -> long testing phase with not that many bangs for the given bucks as the Muricans would say....

    They need to start putting new stuff somewhere at some point. Probably why Steregushi and Gremashi are still built in parallel to this one. But time marches on.

    Probably reason for light armament on first one, too much new stuff at once can be problematic.

    miroslav wrote:...
    2. Increase from 12 to 16 SAM missile is not much (compared to the basic 20380).
    3. It has a 76 mm main gun not a 100 mm one.....

    Guns are glorified decorations at this point unless we are talking about 120mm or larger ones because that is something that can use more advanced guided munitions.

    Trimming down the gun in order to fit more AA missiles is excellent decision in my book.

    miroslav wrote:
    4. More endurance -> useless if it's not coupled with adequate main fire power.

    This is actually really important because Russian Navy needs more long range ships since majority of newly built ones are short range.

    miroslav wrote:....
    Conclusion: The 20385 and ESPECIALLY THE 11356 are far better ships, able to do the main tasks far more efficiently.

    11356 is larger but not exactly better ship. It only has one UKSK system which is really light for vessel of that size and it relies on torpedoes for anti-sub work instead of missiles. Also 24 Shtil missiles is inferior to 16 Redut missiles especially for ship this big. Sonar and radars are not top shelf models either.  

    20385 has good armament but it is simply overstuffed. Original 20380 had Kashtan which was replaced with Redut. That took up lots of internal space. And then when they added UKSK and moved Redut in the back they probably erased any internal space still available. This had to have downsides.



    Long story short: wait and see. We still don't know what will this ship be like. I'll form opinion later.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:33 pm

    Russian navy can actually go up against most western ships because most western ships are rather poorly equipped for anti ship rolls in comparison to the rest of their navy and their ability to hit land targets. As well, Russia has quite the arsenal of long range anti ship supersonic missiles, something a lot or most western ships lack. Having anti ship capabilities is very important too. But it becomes rather hard to be able to integrate all of them into a ship of this size. I would think at least.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:35 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Russian navy can actually go up against most western ships because most western ships are rather poorly equipped for anti ship rolls in comparison to the rest of their navy and their ability to hit land targets.  As well, Russia has quite the arsenal of long range anti ship supersonic missiles, something a lot or most western ships lack.  Having anti ship capabilities is very important too.  But it becomes rather hard to be able to integrate all of them into a ship of this size.  I would think at least.

    US surface ships cannot destroy Russian cities. Subs can. Hence priority is on anti-sub work.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:43 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:Russian navy can actually go up against most western ships because most western ships are rather poorly equipped for anti ship rolls in comparison to the rest of their navy and their ability to hit land targets.  As well, Russia has quite the arsenal of long range anti ship supersonic missiles, something a lot or most western ships lack.  Having anti ship capabilities is very important too.  But it becomes rather hard to be able to integrate all of them into a ship of this size.  I would think at least.

    US surface ships cannot destroy Russian cities. Subs can. Hence priority is on anti-sub work.

    yes, that makes sense. I am just saying though that Russian ships having antiship capabilities is also very important. It is all about trying to fit all that into one ship. Which I think Grigorovich did. but I have to verify that one myself.

    I know with Redut they want to utilize all aspects - short, medium and long range air defense. What about Shtil-1 though? That is rather very capable, used widely in China, and could also have relatively long range missiles too, no?

    Kh-35 missiles of latest modification can also attack land targets as well as ships. So that is also an ideal system too.

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