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    Project 20836 Corvette

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    PapaDragon
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:52 pm

    Rmf wrote:if its 120km redut.... but its probably 50 km missiles since radar has 70km guidance. also radars seem low and missiles launch exaust might disturb or damage them if it is close.
    Anyway in my opinion -2 pantcir with 24 missiles and 4*30mm ciws guns is much better for corvete.

    Pantsir is already on small missile boats (22800) so corvette would go with something bigger.

    Although given the size of this thing it is already hard to figure out if it is overgrown corvette or mini frigate.

    flamming_python
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  flamming_python on Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:04 am

    The Steregushchys were expensive for what they were and the Gremyaschys even more so.

    Having a new light corvette with decent range makes sense. If Kalibrs are needed then there are plenty of other vessels with that capability.

    Rmf
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  Rmf on Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:04 pm

    so how many those large containers can it carry? 1? why not space for 2?
    .....and if it has a container then it cant have helicopter onboard?

    old video but very good.
    https://youtu.be/mbUU_9bOcnM?t=51s

    JohninMK
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:51 pm

    Rmf wrote:so how many those large containers can it carry? 1? why not space for 2?
    .....and if it has a container then it cant have helicopter onboard?

    old video but very good.

    Evil Russian propaganda film, just a dream............................oh wait

    franco
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  franco on Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:52 pm

    From the model shown it has room for two containers while still carrying a helicopter.

    Rmf
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  Rmf on Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:59 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rmf wrote:if its 120km redut.... but its probably 50 km missiles since radar has 70km guidance. also radars seem low and missiles launch exaust might disturb or damage them if it is close.
    Anyway in my opinion -2 pantcir with 24 missiles and 4*30mm ciws guns is much better for corvete.

    Pantsir is already on small missile boats (22800) so corvette would go with something bigger.

    Although given the size of this thing it is already hard to figure out if it is overgrown corvette or mini frigate.
    yes i know but 2 main threats low flying airplanes and cruise missiles since that radar horizont is 50-60 meters at 40 km away..... so anyway redut range is further reduced to be comparable to pantcir s .

    hoom
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  hoom on Fri Dec 02, 2016 8:29 am

    Still trying to like this & mostly failing  dunno

    Couple of interesting things via Balancer forum:
    Some people have been modelling the hull with ship design software, either: the given dimensions are correct but the displacement has a typo & should be 2,400t -> 2*MF90 would be crazy high power, or the 3,400t displacement is correct but the dimensions are waterline -> overall dimensions more like proj. 11356 & 2*MF90 is a reasonable power.

    Its a very fine bow, only hits max beam about the rear of the superstructure, unusual but should be good for high-speed.

    Charly015 graphic


    I like the new gun shield & locating it to rear of Redut.
    Amazes me how many designs put missiles so close to the bridge where misfire or combat damage could potentially wipe out the command crew.
    The cost is slightly lower traverse arc for the gun but it's still a pretty good arc, definitely better than 20385.

    I don't like just one AK-630 or even the original 2*, they have poor arcs & a lot of the arc is blocked for the Centaur fire control radar by the funnels.
    It's tempting to think it's just a temp setup for something better later but I see nowhere to put a better point defence like Naval Pantsir, Naval Tor or even a Gibhka without looking really odd & probably being a big CoG issue.

    I still don't like Urans instead of UKSK.
    I want to see a better explanation for the containerised system, from what I've seen of it I think its much more limited than people are assuming

    TheArmenian
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:59 am

    These two videos will help you find some answers:





    Pay close attention of how those motor boats for special forces are launched. The ship can accommodate at least 3 of those.

    This is a true multi purpose ship: Anti air (Redut), anti-ship (Uran + anti-ship Kalibr in container), anti submarine (paket + helicopter), anti land (Kalibr + 100mm) and special forces (fast boats).

    In a package that is stealthy and quiet (CODLAG propulsion).

    SeigSoloyvov
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:25 pm

    The plan is to build 10 of these, so not a bad ship Russia could use more frigates.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  miroslav on Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:04 am

    flamming_python wrote:The Steregushchys were expensive for what they were and the Gremyaschys even more so.

    Having a new light corvette with decent range makes sense. If Kalibrs are needed then there are plenty of other vessels with that capability.

    But isn't that the point of it all, so every corvette can potentially threaten an Murican destroyer. I'm reading the comments and details presented here and it seams to me that there in no valid excuse of not putting an 8 cell vertical launcher in the first place.

    Aldo I am still not sure, will every ship have 8 subsonic AS missiles, a helicopter AND a quad Kalibr launcher, can this be use to fire the Onix AS missile, if so then this is pretty impressive for a 105m long ship no mater what.

    hoom
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  hoom on Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:27 am

    Pay close attention of how those motor boats for special forces are launched. The ship can accommodate at least 3 of those
    Yes but look closely at the container handling system, lengths, positions & think how you would go about shuffling the containers.

    The containerised Calibr uses 40ft, the only image I've seen with a 40ft container has it in the hangar.
    Container Calibr requires at least 1* 20ft container too.


    The assumption people are making is that you can fit & shuffle around 2* 40ft Calibr containers as well as the 20ft, a helicopter & towed sonar.
    I'm not convinced that there is room to shuffle 40ft containers in the boat launch section, might just be enough room but I think it's more likely that its only 1* 40ft & it stays in the hangar -> exclusive of chopper.
    If you can shuffle it may be at expense of the towed sonar as well as chopper.

    Here's some other pics




    This one shows a trolley type system for moving containers but also shows the doors to the hangar opening inwards to the boat-deck -> would be a huge impediment to shuffling 40ft containers.



    We know 22160 can handle both 2* container Calibr + Helicopter because it is explicitly shown in the models, 2* hatches & the telescopic chopper hangar is forward on the main deck.

    GarryB
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:34 am

    Think of the Kalibrs in the containers as a plan b alternative.

    90% of the time the Urans will be more than enough and the space the containers occupy can be used for other things...

    If they need a massive attack of cruise missiles they could simply use a container ship.

    Sometimes it will be useful to have a few extra tubes of missiles in which case meeting a container ship mid ocean to transfer a container or two on board would be fairly straight forward, but most of the time the existing weapons should be more than enough.

    Keep in mind that guided 100mm shells could certainly deal with anti ship missiles in the forward arc and Redut can reportedly include the new Morfei IIR guided fire and forget SAM as well as the larger missiles of the S-350 family.


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    hoom
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  hoom on Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:38 pm

    So I've been reading this http://www.oborona.ru/includes/periodics/navy/2015/0625/140716058/detail.shtml
    Makes some pretty interesting points.

    I didn't really get the point of partial-electric power but it's for quiet low speed ASW/anti-mine work (definitely something that 20380/5 don't do), switch in the gas turbines for high speed where you're going to be noisy anyway.

    Talks a bunch about optimising the crew areas & other interior bits for reduced crew work -> crew reduction.

    Definitely they see the hangar as part of the multi-mode volume so I think is likely that certain loadouts are at the expense of the chopper.
    Apparently the lift is also intended to make shore side loading/unloading of not only multi-mission stuff but normal ship stores/ammo which is pretty interesting.

    Long fine bow is definitely for better speed/wave-piercing.

    PapaDragon
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:46 pm

    These ships are are supposed to be configured for each mission type beforehand. But not for every single type of mission simultaneously.

    Anti-air and CIVS setup are fixed.

    There is standard anti-sub functionality with Paket-M and anti-ship with Uran.

    Everything else depends on mission type.

    Anti-sub ability is expanded by adding helicopter (this would be most frequently used option).

    Or

    Heavy duty anti-ship or land attack option is added by loading Kalibr/Oniks container.


    I think that after using Steregushi corvettes for a while they noticed that they spend most of their time looking for subs and with Gremashi being tight on space and expensive Navy decided to keep Uran as standard anti-ship option and go with modular approach for stuff they don't do as often (land attack and large scale anti-ship warfare)

    IMO land attack is something these ships are least likely to ever do.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:24 pm

    /\ /\ /\
    I generally agree with the above.

    Don't forget the special operations missions with the special motor boats.

    The area below the flight deck on this class is very spacious for the size of the vessel. That area can be used for a number of things.
    All we know thus far is that it can hold a mix of helicopter/Kalibr containers/assault boats/variable depth towed sonar.

    GarryB
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:27 pm

    Indeed they used land attack cruise missiles from corvettes in Syria but then when their larger ships all have UKSK launchers then the need for using corvettes for such missions is greatly reduced if not eliminated.

    They seem to be upgrading their larger vessels with newer electronics and sensors, so when they are running low on Granits and Shipwrecks then I rather suspect the existing launch tubes will get liners for Onyx and Calibr...

    Personally I think the best thing they could do is develop a container that can operate afloat in the ocean... put a few on a container ship and sail past an enemy coastline and drop a container or 5 into the water to sink to the bottom... do it in the middle of the night and make sure the gaps are filled by morning and then after a month or two or after a fixed period of time have one float to the surface and launch its missiles and self destruct and then permanently sink... rinse and repeat...

    The current systems have missiles but there is no reason why some can't have torpedos or self deploying sea mines...


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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  Rmf on Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:24 pm

    not so fast , this have larger displacement , there seems to be room around that big calibr container i wonder why they didnt widen the rear part of corvette bit more so 2 containers can be stored.... this way you can have 4 caliber missiles OR helicopter ,only.
    second those uran is lenghty yet seems small in the superstructure ,and onyx is 3m more. there was room for onyx there mid part of ship , so why uran? 8 onyx beats urans every time.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  GarryB on Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:12 am

    The gap in the superstructure means you could either have two quad launchers for Uran angled and sitting on top of the deck firing sideways, or you could fit a UKSK launcher there that fills the hull to the keel that pretty much blocks movement from the front to the rear of the ship... you can't walk through the UKSK tubes...

    Uran is already good enough... and likely cheap enough.


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    hoom
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  hoom on Mon Dec 05, 2016 1:12 pm

    Here's some stuff about the Zaslon (Barrier) radar system (I think it didn't get linked previously?)
    http://www.zaslon.com/ru/node/55

    Yandex Translate wrote:Multifunctional radar complex rlk MF "Barrier" is intended for:


    • lighting air, surface and electronic environment of the active channels of the radar X and S bands and passive channels in the L, S, C, X, Ku bands of wavelengths with the coordination of their work is adaptive to the current situation and priorities of the vehicle;
    • setting jamming (in X, Ku frequency bands) and the control means of the passive jamming;
    • the issuance of CO to weapon control systems;
    • control of ship gun mounts.

    Additionally, MF rlk "Barrier" may provide radio monitoring in HF and VHF ranges of wavelengths.

    MF radar complex "Zaslon" provides the following tasks

    • Search, detection and tracking of air targets, small low-flying targets, surface targets, shore objectives Radiocontrast.
    • Automatic recognition and classification of targets.
    • Detection of radiation sources, recognition of classes and types of radio-emitting, including in the far zone.
    • Assessment and analysis of radio electronic situation, the definition of coordinates of sources of interference.
    • Active electronic countermeasures.
    • Control means passive jamming.
    • Weapon control.
    • Information support in the interests of the flying fighter, attack aircraft, deck-based helicopter, performing a patrol and search and rescue tasks.
    • Automated health monitoring and Troubleshooting.
    • Documenting the results of information processing, developed solutions and status of interfaced systems.
    • Training personnel in a simulated environment.

    The use of MF in RFCs "Barrier" electronic scanning days, special modes and algorithms review of capture and tracking of targets ensures fast response time, high throughput, high precision targeting, and therefore, the opportunity of effective use of the capabilities of the interfaced systems.

    MF radar complex "Zaslon" has considerable potential for modernization, in the construction of its component parts is the possibility of changes in the composition of the equipment and tasks depending on the target destination of the ship. Possible MLF rlk "Barrier" are adapted to perform various functions in battle circuits.
    Someone on Balancer forum says there is a test setup on the shore of lake Lagoda but indicated it's far from ready.
    Pretty sure this same system is intended for 20385 also.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  hoom on Tue Dec 06, 2016 1:11 pm

    For those who didn't see them previously:
    Page of good pics of the 20386 model at IMDS 2015 http://nevskii-bastion.ru/20386-imds-2015/


    Again from IMDS 2015 this time pics of Zaslon radars http://bastion-karpenko.ru/zaslon-mvms-2015/


    They quote detection of 1m^2 RCS at only 75km, seems kinda short?
    All the multi-frequency integrated ECM/jamming etc capability is a bit wasted with a relatively short detection range, maybe a more simple (& cheaper) system would have sufficed?

    Edit: found this regarding the range thing http://paralay.iboards.ru/viewtopic.php?p=482514&sid=e7daaed26265869f1da7a26de39eddfb#p482514
    Google translate wrote:if ESR = 1kv.m. at 75km, the EPR = 10kv.m. 75 * 1.78 = 133,5km ... if ESR = 0,1kv.m is 75 / 1.78 = 42,1km ... if the EPR = 0.01 42.1 / 1.78 = 23, 7 km
    I have no idea if the maths is correct but if so 0.01m^2 at 23.7km will be further than radar horizon so I guess that's adequate for picking up a sea skimmer as soon as it crosses the radar horizon.

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