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    Project 20836 Corvette

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    PapaDragon
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:14 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:..................

    That would be nice but the question is can Russia get enough of them out quick enough?.

    Looking at Buyan-M's which is three times less tonnage then this ship it's taking them around two years to get them in the fleet and that's the current build rate so they have enough experience building those boats.

    Russia can make fine vessels problem is they get them out so slow that it would take a few decades for them to maybe threaten someone with the amount they could bring.

    This is russia's Achilles heel. I have always said there cannot be one major power in the world there must be multiple so they can off-set eachother, I hope russia can become a player that can help keep balance.

    We should be looking at construction pace of ships from last decade only. Anything before that falls under or immediately after 90's which is not really accurate benchmark.


    Speed aside, most important thing now is to construct same type of ships in several locations. We already have that with Karakurts, they are built by Pella, Zaliv in Crimea and soon Zelenodolsk.

    Steregushi corvettes (20380) are built in Severnaya and Amur shipyards. I think that 20386 will later also be built in Amur as well. If they are smart they will set up production in three shipyards just like Karakurts.    

    This only leaves Gorshkov frigates. Once those are being constructed in more than one place, Russian Navy will be sitting pretty for long time to come.  


    20386 class might also explain why MoD did not give any contracts for Karakurt boats to any lager capacity shipyards even though they lobbied hard: they wanted them to focus on large vessels while ''non conventional'' shipyards handle smaller stuff. It is pretty smart move.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:20 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:..................

    That would be nice but the question is can Russia get enough of them out quick enough?.

    Looking at Buyan-M's which is three times less tonnage then this ship it's taking them around two years to get them in the fleet and that's the current build rate so they have enough experience building those boats.

    Russia can make fine vessels problem is they get them out so slow that it would take a few decades for them to maybe threaten someone with the amount they could bring.

    This is russia's Achilles heel. I have always said there cannot be one major power in the world there must be multiple so they can off-set eachother, I hope russia can become a player that can help keep balance.

    We should be looking at construction pace of ships from last decade only. Anything before that falls under or immediately after 90's which is not really accurate benchmark.


    Speed aside, most important thing now is to construct same type of ships in several locations. We already have that with Karakurts, they are built by Pella, Zaliv in Crimea and soon Zelenodolsk.

    Steregushi corvettes (20380) are built in Severnaya and Amur shipyards. I think that 20386 will later also be built in Amur as well. If they are smart they will set up production in three shipyards just like Karakurts.    

    This only leaves Gorshkov frigates. Once those are being constructed in more than one shipyard, Russian Navy will be sitting pretty for long time to come.  


    20386 class might also explain why MoD did not give any contracts for Karakurt boats to any lager capacity shipyards even though they lobbied hard: they wanted them to focus on large vessels while ''non conventional'' shipyards handle smaller stuff. It is pretty smart move.

    I did look at production rates hence the Buyan-M most numerous type of new generation surface ship. two years for a ship of that size? that's not good.
    Aren't Karakut's only being built in two shipyards?. One in Crimea and three in another.

    We will have to see really, how this will go Russia has had a hard time building vessels of that tonnage in short order. Two years is a suitable time for a ship of that size, three is pushing it and if they go into four or more welp. They got problems.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:24 am

    On a side note anyone got any pics of the Gremyashchiy-class corvette?. The real ship?.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:12 am

    You know, i honestly like this new design, from what i can see its possible that this ship can hold 2 UKSK launchers side by side, on top of that, if they were to further expand the design to a larger frigate size, they would only need to widen the gap enough to put multiple UKSKs side by side vertically, depending on the expansion i can see 4, 6 or even 8 UKSKs being installed, this could also be further expanded when we enter cruiser size, also place S-500s as well, in short this looks like a very flexible design.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  hoom on Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:22 am

    On a side note anyone got any pics of the Gremyashchiy-class corvette?. The real ship?.
    It's not even launched yet so just in-build pics.
    https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2016/05/24/new-stealth-warship-gremyashchy-class-corvettes-project-20385-russia/ has about as much as I've seen.
    Should look like this complete


    its possible that this ship can hold 2 UKSK launchers side by side
    Could have but didn't, instead
    Going with 2 quads of well-covered and sufficiently good ship killers like the Urans (better than the standard NATO AShM right now)
    just as NATO is putting into service a new generation of longer ranged/stealthy &/or faster AShM dunno

    potential fitting of Panstir or Palash (big question mark) is a nice bonus.
    Look at the thing, where could they put those? Nowhere, not possible except maybe up on the top of that very tall superstructure where it'd be a big CoG issue & look really fuckin weird.

    I believe that their intended role is antisubmarine warfare with anti-air and anti-ship functionally for self protection. Basically they are replacement for Nanuchka class anti-sub corvettes. Question is how many torpedoes do they carry, 4 or 8?
    I think you meant Grisha class?
    The whole 2038x line have a strong ASW tilt with large bow sonar & towed array. Packet launchers are 2* quad.
    20385 has the extra from UKSK with ASW version of Calibr, maybe 20386 can shoot them from containerised Calibr but it looks like thats at the expense of the chopper which you wouldn't want to lose on an ASW mission.
    22160 lacks the sonar but at least keeps the containerised Calibr separate from helicopter.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:46 am

    @hoom

    You are right, I meant to say Grisha class. I always get lost in cold war era naval terminology.

    And if they really do have 2x4 torpedoes then we just figured out main purpose of these ships. In that case Uran AShM launchers are there just for self-defense.

    Also, containerised missiles and helicopter are not mutually exclusive, they just can't be used simultaneously because they need access to same deck hatch.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  hoom on Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:56 am

    I don't think you'd want to go out hunting subs with Paket though, its 324mm with only 1.4km range @50kt (20km @30kt) even called an Anti-torpedo, chopper launched torps & ASW Calibr should be the main ASW weapon.

    Also present on the other 2038x ships so not special to the new design.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:24 am

    Some updates on the 20380, 20385 and 20386 classes

    The main gun on the 20386 is an upgraded A-190 100mm. Some rumors about faster rate and increased range, but nothing confirmed. It is stealthier than its predecessor for sure.
    The 20386 can be described as a mini-ZUMWALT class destroyer. It is the stealthiest surface ship of the Ru Navy.

    Construction of the first Pr. 20385 (Gremyashy) is proceeding. Powerplant is now fitted and the ship will likely be launched early in 2017 and enter service in 2018.

    Construction the Pr. 20380 Retivy is proceeding well. The shipyard has received the diesel units, they will be fitted to the ship.

    In the Pacific, Amur shipyard is completing the tests on the Sovershenny. The Navy intends to commission the ship before end of year (don't know if they make it on time).
    1 or 2 month old photo of Sovershenny during Demagnetization.


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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  hoom on Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:50 am

    1 or 2 month old photo of Sovershenny during Demagnetization.
    Looking much better than the shots back in Sept Smile

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:39 pm


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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  Rmf on Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:43 pm

    and that picture summerises everything thats wrong with ship.....

    just 1 ak-630 on top? no duet?
    why didnt they put at least naval sosna there.... ak-630 is 9 tonns and naval sosna 7,5t.

    it seems that smaller containers can be used as placeholder for smaller unmanned UAVs according to some news.
    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/s-100/

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:47 pm

    Rmf wrote:and that picture summerises everything thats wrong with ship.....

    just 1 ak-630 on top? no duet?
    why didnt they put at least naval sosna there.... ak-630 is 9 tonns and naval sosna 7,5t.

    it seems that smaller containers can be used as placeholder for smaller unmanned UAVs according to some news.
    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/s-100/

    There will be two CIWS systems on it. Has for the rest we wont know until they start building the ship

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:53 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Rmf wrote:and that picture summerises everything thats wrong with ship.....

    just 1 ak-630 on top? no duet?
    why didnt they put at least naval sosna there.... ak-630 is 9 tonns and naval sosna 7,5t.

    it seems that smaller containers can be used as placeholder for smaller unmanned UAVs according to some news.
    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/s-100/

    There will be two CIWS systems on it. Has for the rest we wont know until they start building the ship

    Yup, every data says two CIWS's

    Initial Karakurt CGI showed AK-630 and it ended up with naval Pantsir. These early images are just for show.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:39 am

    PapaDragon wrote:

    My desktop screensaver.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  Rmf on Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:12 pm

    i think its wrong to call this a corvette , its the size of krivak frigate....

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:22 pm

    Rmf wrote:i think its wrong to call this a corvette , its the size of krivak frigate....

    Gorshkov is frigate even though it easily qualifies as destroyer and Zumvalt is destroyer even though it is practically full scale cruiser or battlecruiser.

    This is new era with new rules it seems.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:26 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rmf wrote:i think its wrong to call this a corvette , its the size of krivak frigate....

    Gorshkov is frigate even though it easily qualifies as destroyer and Zumvalt is destroyer even though it is practically full scale cruiser or battlecruiser.

    This is new era with new rules it seems.  

    Which DD you comparing it to and why exactly?.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  George1 on Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:30 pm

    Τoday we have multirole ships of small, mediuma or heavy class. I dont think that frigate, destroyer, cruiser has any meaning in modern era. All depend on the capacity of missiles of the ship


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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  GarryB on Sun Nov 06, 2016 1:36 am

    Good point George... with improvements in AESA radars and SAMs and with universal missile launchers like UKSK and vessel in the Russian Navy can pretend to be a destroyer or cruiser even when they are a corvette.

    What surprises me is that the space where there are two quad angled launchers for Uran, they could have put a UKSK launcher with much bigger missiles.

    The only issue is the depth of such launchers would effect the design of the ship down several decks but I think if they only put in one 8 tube launcher there should be space at each side to walk around the launchers to get to the front or rear of the ship...

    this design seems to have the maximum internal space for systems and equipment with its enormous box like structure. Fitting embedded antennas for AESA radars and other sensors is the best compromise for low RCS and situational awareness too.


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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:42 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rmf wrote:i think its wrong to call this a corvette , its the size of krivak frigate....

    Gorshkov is frigate even though it easily qualifies as destroyer and Zumvalt is destroyer even though it is practically full scale cruiser or battlecruiser.

    This is new era with new rules it seems.  

    Which DD you comparing it to and why exactly?.

    Sovremennyy size-wise but capability-wise it is way superior. Doesn't lag too much behind Udaloi as well.

    Ant it outguns both of them.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  Rmf on Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:10 am

    but why redut in front of the gun, not behind it like it is a usual setup?

    and if the claims of new pantsir-m are true and has 40km range missiles, why bother.
    put 2 naval pantcir there and you have good medium and close AA you want, with many more missiles ,then no need for redut nore a gun and no dedicated ciws - freeing lot of internal space  ,and no need for troublesome poliment aesa since pantcir has his own radar.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:21 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    Rmf wrote:i think its wrong to call this a corvette , its the size of krivak frigate....

    Gorshkov is frigate even though it easily qualifies as destroyer and Zumvalt is destroyer even though it is practically full scale cruiser or battlecruiser.

    This is new era with new rules it seems.  

    Which DD you comparing it to and why exactly?.

    Sovremennyy size-wise but capability-wise it is way superior. Doesn't lag too much behind Udaloi as well.

    Ant it outguns both of them.

    Then I don't feel that's a fair assessment has comparing it to ships way past their peak point.

    I thought you where comparing it to modern DD's not old soviet classes

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  Isos on Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:00 pm

    GarryB wrote:Good point George... with improvements in AESA radars and SAMs and with universal missile launchers like UKSK and vessel in the Russian Navy can pretend to be a destroyer or cruiser even when they are a corvette.

    What surprises me is that the space where there are two quad angled launchers for Uran, they could have put a UKSK launcher with much bigger missiles.

    The only issue is the depth of such launchers would effect the design of the ship down several decks but I think if they only put in one 8 tube launcher there should be space at each side to walk around the launchers to get to the front or rear of the ship...

    this design seems to have the maximum internal space for systems and equipment with its enormous box like structure. Fitting embedded antennas for AESA radars and other sensors is the best compromise for low RCS and situational awareness too.

    They are planning to use them in closed seas like Black sea and Baltic sea so Urans are enough. They are very capable missiles which can attack all ships operating there, with their range covering all the area. No need for UKSK which are already on gorshkovs, grigorovichs, subs, new corvettes...

    These corvettes are a cheap replacement of their soviet era antiship corvettes. They don't need to be multi role. The hangar for the container is a cheap solution for making them multi role, if needed. I don't think they will sistematicly carry Klub-K, maybe never ...

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Nov 06, 2016 2:24 pm

    Rmf wrote:but why redut in front of the gun, not behind it like it is a usual setup?

    and if the claims of new pantsir-m are true and has 40km range missiles, why bother.
    put 2 naval pantcir there and you have good medium and close AA you want, with many more missiles ,then no need for redut nore a gun and no dedicated ciws - freeing lot of internal space  ,and no need for troublesome poliment aesa since pantcir has his own radar.

    My guess is because container space and hangar in the back. It's a lot of empty space so they moved gun towards center of the ship to improve balance. Besides it's hardly first ship to have missiles in front of a gun.

    As for Pantsir, yes it is good but Redut is far superior and good Aesa radar is always handy. Besides, it may get Pantsir yet on top of everything.

    And Redut launchers mean better upgrade potential down the road.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  Rmf on Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:18 pm

    if its 120km redut.... but its probably 50 km missiles since radar has 70km guidance. also radars seem low and missiles launch exaust might disturb or damage them if it is close.
    Anyway in my opinion -2 pantcir with 24 missiles and 4*30mm ciws guns is much better for corvete.

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