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    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette

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    Post  x_54_u43 on Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:47 am

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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:31 am


    Ah so it is CODAG plus electric

    Definitely drastic improvement over what is now standard

    It makes perfect sense​ then for this ship is so lightly equiped, it is a testbed for engine and hull

    No need to install expensive weapons, sonars and radars on such an unproven vessel until you know for certain that core components actually work

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:30 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Ah so it is CODAG plus electric

    Definitely drastic improvement over what is now standard

    It makes perfect sense​ then for this ship is so lightly equiped, it is a testbed for engine and hull

    No need to install expensive weapons, sonars and radars on such an unproven vessel until you know for certain that core components actually work

    COGAG (combined Gas and Gas), since they are 2 gas turbines.

    CODAG means combined Diesel And Gas, like Admiral Gorshkov Frigate.

    Furthermore it is not fully clear to me how does it work for the electric part... apparently it is only a partial electric propulsion with electric engines whose power is one order of magnitude smaller than the gas turbines.

    Corvettes of project 20386 have a gas turbine power plant with partial electric propulsion. It has two M90FR engines produced by Saturn of 27500 HP each and two electric engines of 2200 HP each. Reducers and the gear of the 6RP unit are produced by Zvezda enterprise in St. Petersburg
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:57 am

    French FREMM have also an electric engine. It is mostly for anti sub warfare missions. The engine is less powerfull but produce much less noise than the main ones.

    It also work as emergency engine if the main propulsion breaks so the ship can go home anyway.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:20 am

    Electric has enormous potential for the future... for a very long time the very idea that an electric motor in a car was the future was laughed at and derided by the majority, but the technology gets better and smaller and lighter and cheaper and pretty soon the fastest accelerating car will be electric if it isn't already...

    Power and efficiency will improve and things like EMALS technology will drive things further too with better magnetics and power generation and storage and shifting electric power around a vessel like a star ship in Star Trek...

    I should point out that a conventional motor needs gears and transmission shafts to redirect the mechanical rotation of the motor to the wheels that requires direct linkages.... on very big ships like aircraft carriers those shafts can be enormous and very very heavy and it dictates where the propulsion system has to be to turn the shafts to move the ship. You can run a diesel engine backwards though you usually have to stop it first, but some more complex transmission systems can reverse the shaft direction without having to reverse the motor driving it... with an electric motor you just change the polarity of the current.

    Instead of big heavy propellers on enormous long heavy shafts you can have propeller pods that can rotate 360 degrees to make any size boat so manouverable tugboats become irrelevant... no gearing... no transmission, no drive shafts... the propeller pods contain the motors and the propulsion power generation system can be placed anywhere you like on the vessel... in fact you could have half a dozen different smaller power plants all over the place... a carrier could have the entire deck covered in solar panels if you wanted... with battery packs all over the place in empty spaces that nothing else fits in....
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    Post  hoom on Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:04 pm

    Propably a new version in the pipeline.
    Now thats a version I can get behind Very Happy
    Though I think thats just 16 cells of Redut, 64 missiles is assuming quad-pack 9M100.

    Ah so it is CODAG plus electric
    Direct gas turbine for sprint where noise doesn't really matter, diesel-electric for cruise/ASW work.
    We already discussed that up-thread ages ago.
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    Post  JohninMK on Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:02 pm

    I assume that the red engines are diesels but they don't seem to be connected to the drive system. Are they auxiliary electricity generators?
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    Post  hoom on Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:27 am

    I assume that the red engines are diesels but they don't seem to be connected to the drive system. Are they auxiliary electricity generators?
    Yes red are diesel generators, they power the light green electric motors for low-speed/quiet operation.
    Orange is gas turbines direct connected to the gearbox.

    Here is a pic of the gearbox
    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 14 20386_GEU_01

    Wiki diagram of CODLAG/CODLOG setup
    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 14 CODLAG-diagram
    Most modern frigates etc are using one or the other.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:18 am

    I assume that the red engines are diesels but they don't seem to be connected to the drive system. Are they auxiliary electricity generators?

    Just looking at the photo at the top of this page the pinky red things are the diesel engines, which I assume just generate electric power, the orange are the gas turbines which are directly connected to the transmission which is blue, and the green are the electric motors which are also connected to the transmission, so the diesels would just be there to generate electricity to run the electric motors, while the gas turbines power the propellers through the transmission but I would assume could also turn the electric motors to generate electricity on board to run the electrics. The electric motors can turn the transmission to run the props but would get electrical power from the diesels to do so... I don't think there would be a run silent mode where only the electric motors run... you would either be diesel electric like a train or gas turbine like a helicopter... the diesels are fuel efficient but generally scalable power... the fact that there are three diesel engines shows they can have three cruise speed options... low speed standard speed and high speed with one, two or three diesels running at the same time, but generally the gas turbines generate the most direct power and are for high speed operations... often together with the diesels at the same time for max performance.
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    Post  hoom on Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:46 am

    I don't think there would be a run silent mode where only the electric motors run
    Point is the diesels can be really well isolated from the structure since they only need to connect to the hull with some cables/pipes & the electric motors won't transmit significant noise to the shafts/gearbox.

    I had mis-remembered the diagram though  Embarassed  
    I was thinking the electric motors were directly on the prop-shafts so they could clutch off at the gearbox entry & run without gearbox noise/vibrations.
    Since electric motors are running via gearbox quietness will depend on gearbox quality.
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    Post  Isos on Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:42 am

    hoom wrote:
    I don't think there would be a run silent mode where only the electric motors run
    Point is the diesels can be really well isolated from the structure since they only need to connect to the hull with some cables/pipes & the electric motors won't transmit significant noise to the shafts/gearbox.

    I had mis-remembered the diagram though  Embarassed  
    I was thinking the electric motors were directly on the prop-shafts so they could clutch off at the gearbox entry & run without gearbox noise/vibrations.
    Since electric motors are running via gearbox quietness will depend on gearbox quality.

    FREMM propulsion. Electric engine is at mid-ship and can work alone until 14 knots in a silent mode to hunt submarine. That's why this class has the best ASW capability with a french sonar which is the best available in the world.

    Project 20836 Mercury-class modular Corvette - Page 14 1-figu10
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    Post  hoom on Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:52 am

    Yes thats the setup I thought they were doing for 20386, shame they're not No
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    Post  flamming_python on Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:14 pm

    JohninMK wrote:I assume that the red engines are diesels but they don't seem to be connected to the drive system. Are they auxiliary electricity generators?

    Yes as Hoom said, they are generators. Actually aggregates, consisting of a diesel engine (the part on the left with the visible pistons), turning a generator via their drive chafts (the part on the right).
    You can see the pipes leading up from them, those are the exhausts. You will also have pipes for providing water, lubrication fluid and fuel, as well as cables for the output electricity; although some of that stuff will be tucked away/hidden.

    They'll be used to provide auxillary and emergency power. An aggregate of that size can generate at least 200kW

    I worked with them while in the Navy so I know Cool
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:37 am

    Awesome...

    So would I be right in assuming that if they had the electric motors directly attached to the shafts they would not need gears or a transmission.... and in fact they could attach the propellers to the electric motors like the electric generators are directly attached to the diesels so the electric engines and propellers could be in pods hung below the keel that could be rotated 360 degrees so no need for rudders at all.

    I remember seeing one of their icebreakers that was designed so it could reverse into really thick ice with its propeller pods running backwards so the enormous blades chopped up the ice to make it easier for the ship to operate in heavier ice packs...

    Transmissions and gears are needed for internal combustion engines because the speed they run at (ie RPM) cannot equate to the speed of the wheels ( on a car or truck or bus or train) or the screws (on a plane or ships or subs) most of the time. Gears and transmission boxes and shafts allow the speed of the wheels and screws to be more effectively managed no matter what the RPM of the "engine" whether petrol engine, diesel engine, or gas turbine engine.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:59 am

    So russian navy ordered 10 new Steregoushchy and not Mercury for the pacific fleet.
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    Post  JohninMK on Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:43 am

    GarryB wrote:Awesome...

    So would I be right in assuming that if they had the electric motors directly attached to the shafts they would not need gears or a transmission.... and in fact they could attach the propellers to the electric motors like the electric generators are directly attached to the diesels so the electric engines and propellers could be in pods hung below the keel that could be rotated 360 degrees so no need for rudders at all.

    Just like electric cars. A motor on every driven wheel, 2 or 4. Does away with gearboxes, drive shaft, prop shafts. Starting to arrive on slower less heavy ships like car ferries in Norway with a small diesel as a generator.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:45 am

    Well the thing is that modularity and serial production is one thing, but sometimes conditions make certain features more desirable than others.

    What I mean is that right now the Russian Army has decided on four vehicle families... Armata heavy tracked, Kurganets medium tracked, Boomerang medium wheeled, and Typhoon light wheeled and they are going to develop those families and expand them to pretty much replace all their existing vehicle types within reason... ie you wont see Yars on any of them as it is just too big, but they can replace all the MTLB based vehicles and BMP and BMD based vehicles and BTR based vehicles in their forces.

    However for the arctic they have shown they prefer DT-10 and other two part articulated vehicles for that region because with the powered articulated joint that transfers power to the rear catapillar tracks it means they can self recover if they fall through the ice into the sea water which single hulled vehicles can't do generally...

    That means basing APCs or IFV or even artillery vehicles on the border with Georgia might be Armata or Kurganets or Boomerang or Typhoon... but in the far north it will be DT-30 based platform.

    What I am saying is that the Steregoushchy might be the standard Corvette for most places in Russia, but the Mercury might be optimised... perhaps for shallow waters and rivers like the Caspian sea, or perhaps good in colder weather for the far north perhaps...

    If they make an order for the Mercury boats for a specific location we might have an idea in that regard... maybe they want them in the Baltics or BlackSea/Med?
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    Post  Azi on Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:53 am

    Isos wrote:So russian navy ordered 10 new Steregoushchy and not Mercury for the pacific fleet.
    Steregoushchy are finished and ready, Mercury is being build and will be a testbed. RuN don't try to build castles in the air. But Mercury is the successor to Steregoushchy! Mercury is a better design...more VLS, more modularity, more "stealth", more endurance!

    Let's see what will happen Wink
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:Well the thing is that modularity and serial production is one thing, but sometimes conditions make certain features more desirable than others.

    What I mean is that right now the Russian Army has decided on four vehicle families... Armata heavy tracked, Kurganets medium tracked, Boomerang medium wheeled, and Typhoon light wheeled and they are going to develop those families and expand them to pretty much replace all their existing vehicle types within reason... ie you wont see Yars on any of them as it is just too big, but they can replace all the MTLB based vehicles and BMP and BMD based vehicles and BTR based vehicles in their forces.

    However for the arctic they have shown they prefer DT-10 and other two part articulated vehicles for that region because with the powered articulated joint that transfers power to the rear catapillar tracks it means they can self recover if they fall through the ice into the sea water which single hulled vehicles can't do generally...

    That means basing APCs or IFV or even artillery vehicles on the border with Georgia might be Armata or Kurganets or Boomerang or Typhoon... but in the far north it will be DT-30 based platform.

    What I am saying is that the Steregoushchy might be the standard Corvette for most places in Russia, but the Mercury might be optimised... perhaps for shallow waters and rivers like the Caspian sea, or perhaps good in colder weather for the far north perhaps...

    If they make an order for the Mercury boats for a specific location we might have an idea in that regard... maybe they want them in the Baltics or BlackSea/Med?
    actually i believe having seen a diagramma that shows that the Mercury has better rough sea capability and can operate in worst conditions than the 20380/20385, making it more apt for occasional blue sea operations than its smaller older cousins
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    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:46 pm

    Isos wrote:So russian navy ordered 10 new Steregoushchy and not Mercury for the pacific fleet.
    The Pacific shipyard that is currently building the Steregushy class ships has size and technical restrictions. The larger Mercury can not be built there. Even the Gremyashy cannot be built there.
    They have to either invest in the shipyard heavily and loose production capacity for some time or keep the shipyard working by ordering more Steregushys. They are going with the second option.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:19 pm

    Isos wrote:So russian navy ordered 10 new Steregoushchy and not Mercury for the pacific fleet.

    They can't order a ship that is still under construction and hasn't even been tested yet especially if local shipyard is incapable of building ships that advanced to begin with

    Also do you have the news that they officially placed the order or are they still just talking about it?

    I only read about them considering it not ordering it
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    Post  Isos on Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:43 pm

    Not yet ordered.
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    Post  franco on Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:34 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:So russian navy ordered 10 new Steregoushchy and not Mercury for the pacific fleet.

    They can't order a ship that is still under construction and hasn't even been tested yet especially if local shipyard is incapable of building ships that advanced to begin with

    Also do you have the news that they officially placed the order or are they still just talking about it?

    I only read about them considering it not ordering it

    Order is for 4 only. Some Admiral or Shipyard executive said they needed 10 or could get 10.
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    Post  marat on Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:40 pm

    So they ordered 4 new? On top of those 4 which are already ordered? (2 delivered)
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    Post  franco on Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:16 pm

    marat wrote:So they ordered 4 new? On top of those 4 which are already ordered? (2  delivered)

    Just original 4 so far.

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