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    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

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    ult

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  ult on Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:27 pm

    It is officially 3400 tons. 109 x 13 meters, 30 knots, 5000 miles. "Corvette".

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:31 pm

    ult wrote:It is officially 3400 tons. 109 x 13 meters, 30 knots, 5000 miles. "Corvette".


    3.4k tons?.

    Is that really a good idea they are having a hard time getting ships going of this size.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:46 pm

    2x4W Uran launchers appear to be standard kit, so that gives a reasonable medium range anti-surface capability. Looks like an export Gepard in this respect. Good enough for Baltic and Black sea deployments, but containerised Kalibre/Oniks to be added if mission requires it.


    ult

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  ult on Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:02 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    ult wrote:It is officially 3400 tons. 109 x 13 meters, 30 knots, 5000 miles. "Corvette".


    3.4k tons?.

    Is that really a good idea they are having a hard time getting ships going of this size.

    The hulls were never a problem. Russia builds 20 000 ton icebreakers.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:17 pm

    ult wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    ult wrote:It is officially 3400 tons. 109 x 13 meters, 30 knots, 5000 miles. "Corvette".


    3.4k tons?.

    Is that really a good idea they are having a hard time getting ships going of this size.

    The hulls were never a problem. Russia builds 20 000 ton icebreakers.

    I have heard this before Icebreaker's aren't military warships these are two different things. Entirely different building procedures.
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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Militarov on Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:18 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    ult wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    ult wrote:It is officially 3400 tons. 109 x 13 meters, 30 knots, 5000 miles. "Corvette".


    3.4k tons?.

    Is that really a good idea they are having a hard time getting ships going of this size.

    The hulls were never a problem. Russia builds 20 000 ton icebreakers.

    I have heard this before Icebreaker's aren't military warships these are two different things. Entirely different building procedures.

    Well yeah, there are huge differences. There is reason why Mistral which is built with majority of civilian standards is cheapest LHD around.

    marat

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  marat on Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:08 pm

    Isos wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:Look carefully. Project 20386 has:

    .Redut up-front (in front of gun)
    .Kh-35 amid ship
    .Kalibr containers in the rear


    Kalibr instead of the helicopter. The two container in one the picture are Kalibr container but smaller ones I think.

    not instead, both sistems could be on ship at same time.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:59 am

    This is the CODLAG propulsion system of the 20386.
    It is completely different from the 20380.



    So, the 30% range increase to 5000 Nautical Miles is understandable.

    I still find it hard to swallow that the displacement is 3400T. That is 1200T heavier than the 20380 dunno

    By the way this is the fast landing boat launching capability of the 20386:

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    George1

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  George1 on Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:46 pm

    Head ship Derzky (Project 20386) laid down

    ST. PETERSBURG, October 28. /TASS/. The Northern Shipyard in St. Petersburg has held the keel-laying ceremony at the site of the construction of a new-type corvette The Derzky (Project 20386), a TASS correspondent reports from the site of the event.

    "Keel-laying is always an exciting event. The Derzky is a logical extension of the 20380 series and a breakthrough into the future. The designers have come up with many new ideas. Such ships are a pride of any fleet," the Russian’ Navy’s deputy commander for armaments, Viktor Bursuk, said at the ceremony.

    Chief adviser to the president of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, Viktor Chirkov, said the new corvette will be multifunctional and capable of addressing tasks "far beyond the near seas."

    "This project incorporates many promising, modular solutions. It is not accidental the Northern Shipyard was selected to build the ship. It is already working on advanced ships of projects 20380/385. The new ship is an extension of the same ideas and design solutions that we offer to the Navy," Chirkov said.

    Project 20386 will have a hull and superstructure having impressive stealth characteristics. It will carry advanced anti-ship and anti-submarine weapons and an air defense system. The 109-meter-long corvette’s displacement is estimated at 3,400 tonnes, and endurance, at 5,000 nautical miles. The crew’s standard strength is 80 officers and men.

    The corvette will be equipped with power plants of Russian manufacture and the newest radar. The Derzky will be able to carry a deck helicopter and drones. It is scheduled to enter duty in 2021.

    Project 20386 is the next model in the family of ships built under project 20380 and 20385.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/909333

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:35 pm

    hoom wrote:
    I gues that following ships in the class will be cheaper as all research costs could be related with first ship in class.
    But the same would have applied to the 20385s.

    I mean, maybe there really have been significant issues with the 20385 design & by going for essentially a completely new design for 20386 will actually be much quicker to complete/better ships to operate.

    There have most definitely been huge issues with both 20380 and 20385. Fact that ship costs have not been reduced even this late in the series is one of results of those issues.



    I guess I am significantly biased towards 20385 which is a particularly handsome & well armed light frigate.

    20385 does look pretty but internally it is definitely a mess. Original 20380 ship ''Steregushi'' had neither Redut AA nor UKSK launchers and even then it was not exactly spacious internally.

    Second ship received Redut launchers behind main gun which significantly reduced available internal space.

    And then on top of everything 20385 series received even larger UKSK launchers behind main gun while Redut launchers have been moved behind helicopter hangar.

    Can you imagine what all that has done to interior and to balance of the ship?


    After giving this some thought I have a theory on 20386 series. I believe that their intended role is antisubmarine warfare with anti-air and anti-ship functionally for self protection. Basically they are replacement for Nanuchka class anti-sub corvettes. Question is how many torpedoes do they carry, 4 or 8? Those containers can also hold anti-sub missiles.

    They would be like Type-45 destroyers in Royal Navy. Type-45's role anti air warfare with anti ship and sub systems as a bonus. 20386's has emphasis on anti-sub role with bonus AA and ASh functions.
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:41 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:2x4W Uran launchers appear to be standard kit, so that gives a reasonable medium range anti-surface capability.  Looks like an export Gepard in this respect. Good enough for Baltic and Black sea deployments, but containerised Kalibre/Oniks to be added if mission requires it.


    I'll tell you what it looks like, a very solid step in the right direction.

    They are ridding themselves from obsolete Soviet dinosaurs like evolved Krivaks and other half-assed upgrades. They looked into building a truly innovative, efficient and capable ship with sufficient ocean-going capabilities (unlike 800 t FACs or 2,000 t corvettes). Integrated PESA panels for the SAM system, on a low observability hull. Just brilliant, no need for masts. Going with 2 quads of well-covered and sufficiently good ship killers like the Urans (better than the standard NATO AShM right now). Keeping things realistic, check. Same with having a proven CIWS unit (as most light NATO frigates out there). Ability to carry and store a proper ASW chopper, check. Cherry on the top is the very modern, naval version of the S-350, in the same league as Aster-30.

    Those kalibr containers and potential fitting of Panstir or Palash (big question mark) is a nice bonus.

    In short this boat is amazing and should alarm many folks out there.
    Something tells me that if planned properly this thing can be built in the few dozens.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:43 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:2x4W Uran launchers appear to be standard kit, so that gives a reasonable medium range anti-surface capability.  Looks like an export Gepard in this respect. Good enough for Baltic and Black sea deployments, but containerised Kalibre/Oniks to be added if mission requires it.


    I'll tell you what it looks like, a very solid step in the right direction.

    They are ridding themselves from obsolete Soviet dinosaurs like evolved Krivaks and other half-assed upgrades. They looked into building a truly innovative, efficient and capable ship with sufficient ocean-going capabilities (unlike 800 t FACs or 2,000 t corvettes). Integrated PESA panels for the SAM system, on a low observability hull. Just brilliant, no need for masts. Going with 2 quads of well-covered and sufficiently good ship killers like the Urans (better than the standard NATO AShM right now). Keeping things realistic, check. Same with having a proven CIWS unit (as most light NATO frigates out there). Ability to carry and store a proper ASW chopper, check. Cherry on the top is the very modern, naval version of the S-350, in the same league as Aster-30.

    Those kalibr containers and potential fitting of Panstir or Palash (big question mark) is a nice bonus.

    In short this boat is amazing and should alarm many folks out there.
    Something tells me that if planned properly this thing can be built in the few dozens.

    That would be nice but the question is can Russia get enough of them out quick enough?.

    Looking at Buyan-M's which is three times less tonnage then this ship it's taking them around two years to get them in the fleet and that's the current build rate so they have enough experience building those boats.

    Russia can make fine vessels problem is they get them out so slow that it would take a few decades for them to maybe threaten someone with the amount they could bring.

    This is russia's Achilles heel. I have always said there cannot be one major power in the world there must be multiple so they can off-set eachother, I hope russia can become a player that can help keep balance.
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    Rmf

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Rmf on Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:19 pm

    well looking at it , mind i admit i dont have correct dimensions , that space where uran launchers are is a complete waste , you could fit many uksk tubes ,or redut ,or naval thor missiles, right there!!
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:14 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:..................

    That would be nice but the question is can Russia get enough of them out quick enough?.

    Looking at Buyan-M's which is three times less tonnage then this ship it's taking them around two years to get them in the fleet and that's the current build rate so they have enough experience building those boats.

    Russia can make fine vessels problem is they get them out so slow that it would take a few decades for them to maybe threaten someone with the amount they could bring.

    This is russia's Achilles heel. I have always said there cannot be one major power in the world there must be multiple so they can off-set eachother, I hope russia can become a player that can help keep balance.

    We should be looking at construction pace of ships from last decade only. Anything before that falls under or immediately after 90's which is not really accurate benchmark.


    Speed aside, most important thing now is to construct same type of ships in several locations. We already have that with Karakurts, they are built by Pella, Zaliv in Crimea and soon Zelenodolsk.

    Steregushi corvettes (20380) are built in Severnaya and Amur shipyards. I think that 20386 will later also be built in Amur as well. If they are smart they will set up production in three shipyards just like Karakurts.    

    This only leaves Gorshkov frigates. Once those are being constructed in more than one place, Russian Navy will be sitting pretty for long time to come.  


    20386 class might also explain why MoD did not give any contracts for Karakurt boats to any lager capacity shipyards even though they lobbied hard: they wanted them to focus on large vessels while ''non conventional'' shipyards handle smaller stuff. It is pretty smart move.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:20 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:..................

    That would be nice but the question is can Russia get enough of them out quick enough?.

    Looking at Buyan-M's which is three times less tonnage then this ship it's taking them around two years to get them in the fleet and that's the current build rate so they have enough experience building those boats.

    Russia can make fine vessels problem is they get them out so slow that it would take a few decades for them to maybe threaten someone with the amount they could bring.

    This is russia's Achilles heel. I have always said there cannot be one major power in the world there must be multiple so they can off-set eachother, I hope russia can become a player that can help keep balance.

    We should be looking at construction pace of ships from last decade only. Anything before that falls under or immediately after 90's which is not really accurate benchmark.


    Speed aside, most important thing now is to construct same type of ships in several locations. We already have that with Karakurts, they are built by Pella, Zaliv in Crimea and soon Zelenodolsk.

    Steregushi corvettes (20380) are built in Severnaya and Amur shipyards. I think that 20386 will later also be built in Amur as well. If they are smart they will set up production in three shipyards just like Karakurts.    

    This only leaves Gorshkov frigates. Once those are being constructed in more than one shipyard, Russian Navy will be sitting pretty for long time to come.  


    20386 class might also explain why MoD did not give any contracts for Karakurt boats to any lager capacity shipyards even though they lobbied hard: they wanted them to focus on large vessels while ''non conventional'' shipyards handle smaller stuff. It is pretty smart move.

    I did look at production rates hence the Buyan-M most numerous type of new generation surface ship. two years for a ship of that size? that's not good.
    Aren't Karakut's only being built in two shipyards?. One in Crimea and three in another.

    We will have to see really, how this will go Russia has had a hard time building vessels of that tonnage in short order. Two years is a suitable time for a ship of that size, three is pushing it and if they go into four or more welp. They got problems.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Oct 30, 2016 12:24 am

    On a side note anyone got any pics of the Gremyashchiy-class corvette?. The real ship?.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Oct 30, 2016 1:12 am

    You know, i honestly like this new design, from what i can see its possible that this ship can hold 2 UKSK launchers side by side, on top of that, if they were to further expand the design to a larger frigate size, they would only need to widen the gap enough to put multiple UKSKs side by side vertically, depending on the expansion i can see 4, 6 or even 8 UKSKs being installed, this could also be further expanded when we enter cruiser size, also place S-500s as well, in short this looks like a very flexible design.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:22 am

    On a side note anyone got any pics of the Gremyashchiy-class corvette?. The real ship?.
    It's not even launched yet so just in-build pics.
    https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2016/05/24/new-stealth-warship-gremyashchy-class-corvettes-project-20385-russia/ has about as much as I've seen.
    Should look like this complete


    its possible that this ship can hold 2 UKSK launchers side by side
    Could have but didn't, instead
    Going with 2 quads of well-covered and sufficiently good ship killers like the Urans (better than the standard NATO AShM right now)
    just as NATO is putting into service a new generation of longer ranged/stealthy &/or faster AShM dunno

    potential fitting of Panstir or Palash (big question mark) is a nice bonus.
    Look at the thing, where could they put those? Nowhere, not possible except maybe up on the top of that very tall superstructure where it'd be a big CoG issue & look really fuckin weird.

    I believe that their intended role is antisubmarine warfare with anti-air and anti-ship functionally for self protection. Basically they are replacement for Nanuchka class anti-sub corvettes. Question is how many torpedoes do they carry, 4 or 8?
    I think you meant Grisha class?
    The whole 2038x line have a strong ASW tilt with large bow sonar & towed array. Packet launchers are 2* quad.
    20385 has the extra from UKSK with ASW version of Calibr, maybe 20386 can shoot them from containerised Calibr but it looks like thats at the expense of the chopper which you wouldn't want to lose on an ASW mission.
    22160 lacks the sonar but at least keeps the containerised Calibr separate from helicopter.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Oct 30, 2016 4:46 am

    @hoom

    You are right, I meant to say Grisha class. I always get lost in cold war era naval terminology.

    And if they really do have 2x4 torpedoes then we just figured out main purpose of these ships. In that case Uran AShM launchers are there just for self-defense.

    Also, containerised missiles and helicopter are not mutually exclusive, they just can't be used simultaneously because they need access to same deck hatch.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:56 am

    I don't think you'd want to go out hunting subs with Paket though, its 324mm with only 1.4km range @50kt (20km @30kt) even called an Anti-torpedo, chopper launched torps & ASW Calibr should be the main ASW weapon.

    Also present on the other 2038x ships so not special to the new design.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Oct 30, 2016 10:24 am

    Some updates on the 20380, 20385 and 20386 classes

    The main gun on the 20386 is an upgraded A-190 100mm. Some rumors about faster rate and increased range, but nothing confirmed. It is stealthier than its predecessor for sure.
    The 20386 can be described as a mini-ZUMWALT class destroyer. It is the stealthiest surface ship of the Ru Navy.

    Construction of the first Pr. 20385 (Gremyashy) is proceeding. Powerplant is now fitted and the ship will likely be launched early in 2017 and enter service in 2018.

    Construction the Pr. 20380 Retivy is proceeding well. The shipyard has received the diesel units, they will be fitted to the ship.

    In the Pacific, Amur shipyard is completing the tests on the Sovershenny. The Navy intends to commission the ship before end of year (don't know if they make it on time).
    1 or 2 month old photo of Sovershenny during Demagnetization.

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Nov 01, 2016 1:39 pm

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    Rmf

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Rmf on Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:43 pm

    and that picture summerises everything thats wrong with ship.....

    just 1 ak-630 on top? no duet?
    why didnt they put at least naval sosna there.... ak-630 is 9 tonns and naval sosna 7,5t.

    it seems that smaller containers can be used as placeholder for smaller unmanned UAVs according to some news.
    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/s-100/
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:47 pm

    Rmf wrote:and that picture summerises everything thats wrong with ship.....

    just 1 ak-630 on top? no duet?
    why didnt they put at least naval sosna there.... ak-630 is 9 tonns and naval sosna 7,5t.

    it seems that smaller containers can be used as placeholder for smaller unmanned UAVs according to some news.
    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/s-100/

    There will be two CIWS systems on it. Has for the rest we wont know until they start building the ship
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:53 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Rmf wrote:and that picture summerises everything thats wrong with ship.....

    just 1 ak-630 on top? no duet?
    why didnt they put at least naval sosna there.... ak-630 is 9 tonns and naval sosna 7,5t.

    it seems that smaller containers can be used as placeholder for smaller unmanned UAVs according to some news.
    http://bastion-karpenko.ru/s-100/

    There will be two CIWS systems on it. Has for the rest we wont know until they start building the ship

    Yup, every data says two CIWS's

    Initial Karakurt CGI showed AK-630 and it ended up with naval Pantsir. These early images are just for show.

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