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    Project 20836 Corvette

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    AlfaT8
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:27 am

    I've been meaning to ask this for a while, but is the UKSK available for export??

    hoom
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  hoom on Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:32 am

    Via Balancers forum Dersky laid down (should this stuff be in 20380 thread?)


    Reduced to a single AK630 & with even worse traverse No
    No place to add/retrofit Pantsir-M.

    Has anyone seen the AA missile system named?
    The lack of specifying Redut or Stihl-1 (or other? Naval Tor?) is pretty odd I feel.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:33 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Well if this is true that new Pantisr is gonna have 40km range then redut launcher for small ships makes not much sense to me.
    I do not think Palash will be used anymore once Pantsir enters production.

    Apples and oranges. Pantsir is SHORAD, Palash is dedicated CIWS.

    hoom wrote:Via Balancers forum Dersky laid down (should this stuff be in 20380 thread?)
    .........

    Reduced to a single AK630 & with even worse traverse No
    No place to add/retrofit Pantsir-M.

    Has anyone seen the AA missile system named?
    The lack of specifying Redut or Stihl-1 (or other? Naval Tor?) is pretty odd I feel.

    Wow, this thing better be super cheap and fast to build because, as it stands now, it's super weak...

    Although in all honesty it is just one CIWS less than 20380 so maybe they are just tweaking that model?

    AlfaT8
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:19 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    Well if this is true that new Pantisr is gonna have 40km range then redut launcher for small ships makes not much sense to me.
    I do not think Palash will be used anymore once Pantsir enters production.

    Apples and oranges. Pantsir is SHORAD, Palash is dedicated CIWS.

    hoom wrote:Via Balancers forum Dersky laid down (should this stuff be in 20380 thread?)
    .........

    Reduced to a single AK630 & with even worse traverse No
    No place to add/retrofit Pantsir-M.

    Has anyone seen the AA missile system named?
    The lack of specifying Redut or Stihl-1 (or other? Naval Tor?) is pretty odd I feel.

    Wow, this thing better be super cheap and fast to build because, as it stands now, it's super weak...

    Although in all honesty it is just one CIWS less than 20380 so maybe they are just tweaking that model?

    It's got to be, we can only hope they up-gun it later down the line, because as it is now i can only see it serving as a decent air defense corvette (if the Redut claims are true).

    On a further note, who the hell puts the missile in front of the main gun, in all seriousness, what the hell?

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  franco on Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:30 am

    A look at the new 20386 Corvettes;

    https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2016/07/01/project-20386-small-patrol-ships-corvettes/

    According to this article 16 Redut SAM, 8 Uran ShSM and 8 Club-K ShSM or SSM missiles. And size wise at 3500 t, is almost as big as the 11356 and only 1000 t less then the 22350. If so explains the lack of further orders for the 22350 and not bothering to finish the 11356 with Russian engines.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  GarryB on Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:25 am

    Never heard about EMP round but rate of fire is for 76mm - 130 and for 100mm 80. For CIWS role IMHO better is 76mm. Besides 3 calibers isnt best solution for logistics I presume.

    Using guided shells rate of fire is actually a bad thing... guided shells cost more than dumb unguided shells... you don't want or need to fire hundreds at each target... 2-3 at most.

    A 76mm naval HE shell weighs about 6kgs with about 400 grams of actual explosive, a `100mm shell weighs about 16kgs and has 1.5kg of HE.

    The new 100mm gun mounts weigh about the same as the old 76mm gun mounts but have better range and fire power despite having a lower rate of fire.

    I've been meaning to ask this for a while, but is the UKSK available for export??

    I would expect some version of it will as the anti sub Klub and anti ship Klub versions (supersonic and subsonic) are export weapons and I don't know of any other launcher for those weapons.



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    ult
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  ult on Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:27 pm

    It is officially 3400 tons. 109 x 13 meters, 30 knots, 5000 miles. "Corvette".


    SeigSoloyvov
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:29 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    franco wrote:.

    That article is quite obsolete. (good pics though)

    At most they can fit one Club-K container.

    Lack of orders for 22350 is due to engines, they will simply not be ready for couple of more years. They just completed testing stand for turbines.

    11356 is sold to Indians because by the time they are done they might as well move on to 22350 (I still disagree with this sale)

    Engines for 20380/20385/20386 on the other hand are, as of recently, available from local source. Hence the orders for this ship.

    The deal you speak of has to do with different ships no?. They will build 2 more locally for India and 2 within India.

    I don't know really. They did say that engines for Indian ships will be built in Russia. They were pretty specific about it actually, so that is new.

    Another thing, there is no way these new corvettes will be replacing Gorshkov frigates. Gorshkovs have literally twice as many weapons and at least twice the range and endurance.


    It's part of the weapons deal for India one of the packages of the deal with the S-400's. It never said they are giving India the two remaining ones and it also said four not three.

    Going by what I read, four separate ships will be built for them the current three will still be fielded for the BSF.

    No Gorshkov's will be sent to the BSF to supplement the lost 11356's, so the russian navy seems to have decided may has well just wait rather then have to rebuild the hulls anyway.

    I do agree they will not stop building Gorshkov's, I have friend in the Canadian Intel area and my own american ones whose job it is to look into these matters and they would say the samething.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:31 pm

    ult wrote:It is officially 3400 tons. 109 x 13 meters, 30 knots, 5000 miles. "Corvette".


    3.4k tons?.

    Is that really a good idea they are having a hard time getting ships going of this size.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:46 pm

    2x4W Uran launchers appear to be standard kit, so that gives a reasonable medium range anti-surface capability. Looks like an export Gepard in this respect. Good enough for Baltic and Black sea deployments, but containerised Kalibre/Oniks to be added if mission requires it.


    ult
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  ult on Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:02 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    ult wrote:It is officially 3400 tons. 109 x 13 meters, 30 knots, 5000 miles. "Corvette".


    3.4k tons?.

    Is that really a good idea they are having a hard time getting ships going of this size.

    The hulls were never a problem. Russia builds 20 000 ton icebreakers.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:17 pm

    ult wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    ult wrote:It is officially 3400 tons. 109 x 13 meters, 30 knots, 5000 miles. "Corvette".


    3.4k tons?.

    Is that really a good idea they are having a hard time getting ships going of this size.

    The hulls were never a problem. Russia builds 20 000 ton icebreakers.

    I have heard this before Icebreaker's aren't military warships these are two different things. Entirely different building procedures.

    Militarov
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  Militarov on Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:18 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    ult wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    ult wrote:It is officially 3400 tons. 109 x 13 meters, 30 knots, 5000 miles. "Corvette".


    3.4k tons?.

    Is that really a good idea they are having a hard time getting ships going of this size.

    The hulls were never a problem. Russia builds 20 000 ton icebreakers.

    I have heard this before Icebreaker's aren't military warships these are two different things. Entirely different building procedures.

    Well yeah, there are huge differences. There is reason why Mistral which is built with majority of civilian standards is cheapest LHD around.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  marat on Fri Oct 28, 2016 7:08 pm

    Isos wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:Look carefully. Project 20386 has:

    .Redut up-front (in front of gun)
    .Kh-35 amid ship
    .Kalibr containers in the rear


    Kalibr instead of the helicopter. The two container in one the picture are Kalibr container but smaller ones I think.

    not instead, both sistems could be on ship at same time.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  hoom on Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:24 am

    I've been meaning to ask this for a while, but is the UKSK available for export??
    The Indian Talwar class have 3S14E ie export UKSK.
    The last two Rajput class as well as Shivalik, Kolkata & new Visakhapatnam classes have presumably same.

    Apparently 20386 will have CODLOG with 2* M90FR turbines rather than all diesels of the previous 2038x ships.
    Nearly the size of 11356 but with weaker armament, 20bln Rubles is not cheap (I think 19bln for the latest 3* Buyan-M?), while that engine setup makes sense I still don't see that it makes sense as a whole.
    Why is it even counted in the 2038x series? Its got a new bigger hull, new superstructure, different engines, different electronics & different weaponry, almost entirely new.

    Edit: Essen was 13.6bln at order...and 20385 was supposedly too expensive.


    Last edited by hoom on Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total

    AlfaT8
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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:42 am

    hoom wrote:
    I've been meaning to ask this for a while, but is the UKSK available for export??
    The Indian Talwar class have 3S14E ie export UKSK.
    The last two Rajput class as well as Shivalik, Kolkata & new Visakhapatnam classes have presumably same.

    Apparently 20386 will have CODLOG with 2* M90FR turbines rather than all diesels of the previous 2038x ships.
    Nearly the size of 11356 but with weaker armament, 20bln Rubles is not cheap (I think 19bln for the latest 3* Buyan-M?), while that engine setup makes sense I still don't see that it makes sense as a whole.
    Why is it even counted in the 2038x series? Its got a new bigger hull, new superstructure, different engines, different electronics & different weaponry, almost entirely new.

    Good to hear.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Oct 29, 2016 9:59 am

    This is the CODLAG propulsion system of the 20386.
    It is completely different from the 20380.



    So, the 30% range increase to 5000 Nautical Miles is understandable.

    I still find it hard to swallow that the displacement is 3400T. That is 1200T heavier than the 20380 dunno

    By the way this is the fast landing boat launching capability of the 20386:


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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  marat on Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:28 am

    hoom wrote:
    I've been meaning to ask this for a while, but is the UKSK available for export??
    The Indian Talwar class have 3S14E ie export UKSK.
    The last two Rajput class as well as Shivalik, Kolkata & new Visakhapatnam classes have presumably same.

    Apparently 20386 will have CODLOG with 2* M90FR turbines rather than all diesels of the previous 2038x ships.
    Nearly the size of 11356 but with weaker armament, 20bln Rubles is not cheap (I think 19bln for the latest 3* Buyan-M?), while that engine setup makes sense I still don't see that it makes sense as a whole.
    Why is it even counted in the 2038x series? Its got a new bigger hull, new superstructure, different engines, different electronics & different weaponry, almost entirely new.

    Edit: Essen was 13.6bln at order...and 20385 was supposedly too expensive.

    I gues that following ships in the class will be cheaper as all research costs could be related with first ship in class.

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    Project 20836

    Post  hoom on Sat Oct 29, 2016 11:44 am

    I gues that following ships in the class will be cheaper as all research costs could be related with first ship in class.
    But the same would have applied to the 20385s.

    I mean, maybe there really have been significant issues with the 20385 design & by going for essentially a completely new design for 20386 will actually be much quicker to complete/better ships to operate.
    But I'm very sceptical  Suspect
    I guess I am significantly biased towards 20385 which is a particularly handsome & well armed light frigate.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  George1 on Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:42 pm

    I made a separate thread for 20386 project since it looks different from 20380/20385. Unless you prefer to merge it with 20380 thread


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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  George1 on Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:46 pm

    Head ship Derzky (Project 20386) laid down

    ST. PETERSBURG, October 28. /TASS/. The Northern Shipyard in St. Petersburg has held the keel-laying ceremony at the site of the construction of a new-type corvette The Derzky (Project 20386), a TASS correspondent reports from the site of the event.

    "Keel-laying is always an exciting event. The Derzky is a logical extension of the 20380 series and a breakthrough into the future. The designers have come up with many new ideas. Such ships are a pride of any fleet," the Russian’ Navy’s deputy commander for armaments, Viktor Bursuk, said at the ceremony.

    Chief adviser to the president of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, Viktor Chirkov, said the new corvette will be multifunctional and capable of addressing tasks "far beyond the near seas."

    "This project incorporates many promising, modular solutions. It is not accidental the Northern Shipyard was selected to build the ship. It is already working on advanced ships of projects 20380/385. The new ship is an extension of the same ideas and design solutions that we offer to the Navy," Chirkov said.

    Project 20386 will have a hull and superstructure having impressive stealth characteristics. It will carry advanced anti-ship and anti-submarine weapons and an air defense system. The 109-meter-long corvette’s displacement is estimated at 3,400 tonnes, and endurance, at 5,000 nautical miles. The crew’s standard strength is 80 officers and men.

    The corvette will be equipped with power plants of Russian manufacture and the newest radar. The Derzky will be able to carry a deck helicopter and drones. It is scheduled to enter duty in 2021.

    Project 20386 is the next model in the family of ships built under project 20380 and 20385.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/909333



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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Oct 29, 2016 3:35 pm

    hoom wrote:
    I gues that following ships in the class will be cheaper as all research costs could be related with first ship in class.
    But the same would have applied to the 20385s.

    I mean, maybe there really have been significant issues with the 20385 design & by going for essentially a completely new design for 20386 will actually be much quicker to complete/better ships to operate.

    There have most definitely been huge issues with both 20380 and 20385. Fact that ship costs have not been reduced even this late in the series is one of results of those issues.



    I guess I am significantly biased towards 20385 which is a particularly handsome & well armed light frigate.

    20385 does look pretty but internally it is definitely a mess. Original 20380 ship ''Steregushi'' had neither Redut AA nor UKSK launchers and even then it was not exactly spacious internally.

    Second ship received Redut launchers behind main gun which significantly reduced available internal space.

    And then on top of everything 20385 series received even larger UKSK launchers behind main gun while Redut launchers have been moved behind helicopter hangar.

    Can you imagine what all that has done to interior and to balance of the ship?


    After giving this some thought I have a theory on 20386 series. I believe that their intended role is antisubmarine warfare with anti-air and anti-ship functionally for self protection. Basically they are replacement for Nanuchka class anti-sub corvettes. Question is how many torpedoes do they carry, 4 or 8? Those containers can also hold anti-sub missiles.

    They would be like Type-45 destroyers in Royal Navy. Type-45's role anti air warfare with anti ship and sub systems as a bonus. 20386's has emphasis on anti-sub role with bonus AA and ASh functions.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Oct 29, 2016 5:41 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:2x4W Uran launchers appear to be standard kit, so that gives a reasonable medium range anti-surface capability.  Looks like an export Gepard in this respect. Good enough for Baltic and Black sea deployments, but containerised Kalibre/Oniks to be added if mission requires it.


    I'll tell you what it looks like, a very solid step in the right direction.

    They are ridding themselves from obsolete Soviet dinosaurs like evolved Krivaks and other half-assed upgrades. They looked into building a truly innovative, efficient and capable ship with sufficient ocean-going capabilities (unlike 800 t FACs or 2,000 t corvettes). Integrated PESA panels for the SAM system, on a low observability hull. Just brilliant, no need for masts. Going with 2 quads of well-covered and sufficiently good ship killers like the Urans (better than the standard NATO AShM right now). Keeping things realistic, check. Same with having a proven CIWS unit (as most light NATO frigates out there). Ability to carry and store a proper ASW chopper, check. Cherry on the top is the very modern, naval version of the S-350, in the same league as Aster-30.

    Those kalibr containers and potential fitting of Panstir or Palash (big question mark) is a nice bonus.

    In short this boat is amazing and should alarm many folks out there.
    Something tells me that if planned properly this thing can be built in the few dozens.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Oct 29, 2016 6:43 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:2x4W Uran launchers appear to be standard kit, so that gives a reasonable medium range anti-surface capability.  Looks like an export Gepard in this respect. Good enough for Baltic and Black sea deployments, but containerised Kalibre/Oniks to be added if mission requires it.


    I'll tell you what it looks like, a very solid step in the right direction.

    They are ridding themselves from obsolete Soviet dinosaurs like evolved Krivaks and other half-assed upgrades. They looked into building a truly innovative, efficient and capable ship with sufficient ocean-going capabilities (unlike 800 t FACs or 2,000 t corvettes). Integrated PESA panels for the SAM system, on a low observability hull. Just brilliant, no need for masts. Going with 2 quads of well-covered and sufficiently good ship killers like the Urans (better than the standard NATO AShM right now). Keeping things realistic, check. Same with having a proven CIWS unit (as most light NATO frigates out there). Ability to carry and store a proper ASW chopper, check. Cherry on the top is the very modern, naval version of the S-350, in the same league as Aster-30.

    Those kalibr containers and potential fitting of Panstir or Palash (big question mark) is a nice bonus.

    In short this boat is amazing and should alarm many folks out there.
    Something tells me that if planned properly this thing can be built in the few dozens.

    That would be nice but the question is can Russia get enough of them out quick enough?.

    Looking at Buyan-M's which is three times less tonnage then this ship it's taking them around two years to get them in the fleet and that's the current build rate so they have enough experience building those boats.

    Russia can make fine vessels problem is they get them out so slow that it would take a few decades for them to maybe threaten someone with the amount they could bring.

    This is russia's Achilles heel. I have always said there cannot be one major power in the world there must be multiple so they can off-set eachother, I hope russia can become a player that can help keep balance.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  Rmf on Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:19 pm

    well looking at it , mind i admit i dont have correct dimensions , that space where uran launchers are is a complete waste , you could fit many uksk tubes ,or redut ,or naval thor missiles, right there!!

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