Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 8098
    Points : 8184
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 Empty Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:09 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Essentially, they sound very unsure on this boat.  That is the reason for all delay.  Engines being a big part of it.

    They are unsure?

    They are unsure about it now after designing it, ordering it, paying for it, laying it down and two years into construction?

    This is the same crowd that (according to some here) will soon build several fleets of nuclear aircraft carriers and destroyers? No

    I assume first CVN be named ''RS Unsure''? Razz

    Losers...


    miketheterrible wrote:They should have ordered more of the Grigorovich class frigates instead.  They build those fast and they could simply upgrade it with Redut if really needed.

    Same problem as with 20386: engines.

    How do you build Grigorevich corvette wen you are ''unsure'' about stinking frigate?
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 1912
    Points : 1902
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 Empty Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:16 pm

    They should have ordered more of the Grigorovich class frigates instead. They build those fast and they could simply upgrade it with Redut if really needed.
    I've said that for a long time: finish off the BSF 6* & order another 6* at least nominally for Pacific.

    11356 does everything 20386 is supposed to do for similar size/cost and can do it simultaneously vs having to swap in/out containers that may or not exist.

    I really don't see Shtil-1 as a disadvantage, same missile is just going into service on Buk-M3.

    Only real issue is the engine/gearbox but they're going to need to get that sorted anyway to finish the existing order & it makes much more sense to do it for a bigger order than for just a couple.


    Edit: I'd like to also see a bunch more basic 20380 to make sure there are enough modern ASW ships to provide decent coverage/replace old Grishas.
    I've been thinking maybe build with Pantsir-M & the 22800 mast instead of Furke-Redut.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 8098
    Points : 8184
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 Empty Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:48 pm

    hoom wrote:......
    Edit: I'd like to also see a bunch more basic 20380 to make sure there are enough modern ASW ships to provide decent coverage/replace old Grishas.
    I've been thinking maybe build with Pantsir-M & the 22800 mast instead of Furke-Redut.


    Using 20380 as replacment for Grishas is overkill

    It would be better, cheaper and quicker to add bow and towed sonar to Bykov-class and arm them with torpedo containers

    20380 is for heavier work
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 1912
    Points : 1902
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 Empty Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:14 am

    No 20380 was going to replace Grishas in the initial plan.
    Not 1 for 1 obviously but because of various issues they never came out in the kind of numbers intended.

    I should also say it'll be interesting to see how the last few 20380s currently on order turn out, they're supposed to have (at least part of) the Zaslon/Barrier radar system but still 20380 rather than 85/86.
    On the one hand Zaslon is pretty expensive & currently still unproven -> risky, on the other hand more ships with it is better for economy of scale & it should let the 9M96es actually work properly.

    Important point of 20380 is existing domestic engines are appropriate & in production.

    Edit: thanks to the mod who found the proper thread & moved posts thumbsup
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 949
    Points : 990
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 31
    Location : portugal

    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 Empty Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  dino00 on Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:31 am

    At the same time, the Northern Shipyard will dock large blocks of the corvette of the project 20386. It will receive its name in honor of the military brig of the Russian fleet Mercury, whose feat will be 190 years old in May,” the minister added.
    He clarified that the frigates, landing ships and the frigate "are planned to be incorporated into the Navy until 2025."

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6311143
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 8098
    Points : 8184
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 Empty Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:09 pm

    dino00 wrote:At the same time, the Northern Shipyard will dock large blocks of the corvette of the project 20386. It will receive its name in honor of the military brig of the Russian fleet Mercury, whose feat will be 190 years old in May,” the minister added.
    He clarified that the frigates, landing ships and the frigate "are planned to be incorporated into the Navy until 2025."

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6311143

    I don't get it, what does he mean by "dock large blocks"?
    dino00
    dino00

    Posts : 949
    Points : 990
    Join date : 2012-10-12
    Age : 31
    Location : portugal

    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 Empty Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  dino00 on Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:13 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    dino00 wrote:At the same time, the Northern Shipyard will dock large blocks of the corvette of the project 20386. It will receive its name in honor of the military brig of the Russian fleet Mercury, whose feat will be 190 years old in May,” the minister added.
    He clarified that the frigates, landing ships and the frigate "are planned to be incorporated into the Navy until 2025."

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6311143

    I don't get it, what does he mean by "dock large blocks"?

    I have no clue Cool
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 1398
    Points : 1392
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 Empty Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  LMFS on Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:50 pm

    From the English version of TASS:

    "Alongside this the Northern Shipyard will couple two major hull units of the project 20386 corvette. It will be named after the military brig The Merkuriy, whose heroic feat will turn 190 in May," Shoigu said.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1052802

    Reads to me like too big blocks of a modular ship
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 1912
    Points : 1902
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 Empty Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Thu Apr 11, 2019 1:34 pm

    Yes reads as joining together blocks.
    It would be nice if they're done almost completely fitted out but the pic posted earlier appears to just show typical empty shell.

    I think really very little actual construction has been happening, probably waiting on various systems/fniishing parts of the design.


    Was just looking up the new namesake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_brig_Mercury, pretty interesting battle & damn big shoes to fill.
    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 800px-Aivazovsky%2C_Brig_Mercury_Attacked_by_Two_Turkish_Ships_1892
    Caught with no wind by two Turkish ships of the line (110 gun & 74 gun!) it (with only 18 guns) refused to surrender, rigged the magazine to blow up & decided to fight to the last, somehow managed to disable both & get away  Shocked

    Its smaller 12 gun predecessor similarly successfully captured a 44 gun Swedish frigate https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BA%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B9_(%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80)
    LMFS
    LMFS

    Posts : 1398
    Points : 1392
    Join date : 2018-03-03

    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 Empty Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  LMFS on Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:35 pm

    Crazy feat indeed!
    avatar
    hoom

    Posts : 1912
    Points : 1902
    Join date : 2016-05-06

    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 Empty Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:10 pm

    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3620778.html
    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 6784155_original
    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 6784499_original
    Confirmed empty steel...
    Rodion_Romanovic
    Rodion_Romanovic

    Posts : 342
    Points : 342
    Join date : 2015-12-30

    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 Empty Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:13 pm

    A relatively old article (20/03/2019), quite critical about project 20386.

    https://topwar.ru/155697-korvet-20386-prodolzhenie-afery.html

    It is true that is very expensive, compared to the other projects. Maybe they can use it as a testing platform for new technologies or.concept, so that they will not have delays like the first gorshkov for new ships.

    Anyway, we have already discussed in the forum, but the russian navy will probably benefit from a not too expensive corvette optimised for antisub operations.

    If it is true what they mention in the article about reduts system needs for radar and other systems, it could be worth instead to put in ships smaller then a frigate (or in upgrades of old ships) either the modernised naval tor or shtil (naval buk) systems, maybe in conjunction with kashtan or pantsir gun/missile system.

    In this case they could do a relatively cheaper antisub corvette around 2000 tons based on a simplified 20380/20385 or on an upgraded gepard class since they already mastered the construction of those ship classes.

    Or, if they need a bigger endurance for antisub operation they could think again at the grigorovich class (if they can build them with russian engines) which has double the range and endurance compared with 20380 or gepard class.

    The indians are building a large asw corvette, but, in order to have a decent endurance, they ended up having a ship with a displacement similar to a grigorovich class and the srmament of a grisha class (it is basically a overgrown grisha class with an helicopter)

    Note:
    the reason the admiral grigorovic frigates were relatively "cheap" was because they used proven "older" systems and older electronicts, sensors and radars, with less capabilities than the new ones (but not always the best and more expensive system is the ideal, since if pared with relatively short range weapons, it can not use the full potential anyway.

    Big_Gazza
    Big_Gazza

    Posts : 1555
    Points : 1557
    Join date : 2014-08-25
    Location : Melbourne, Australia

    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 Empty Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Big_Gazza on Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:38 pm

    Meh, we've heard all of this before.  Criticism of the lead units of all Russian naval vessels always inflates the cost by lumping the R&D and retooling & design familiarisation costs onto the lead unit.  Subsequent units will be cheaper once the yards are used to the build and get their sht together.
    PapaDragon
    PapaDragon

    Posts : 8098
    Points : 8184
    Join date : 2015-04-26
    Location : Fort Evil, Serbia

    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 Empty Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:41 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:...In this case they could do a relatively cheaper antisub corvette around 2000 tons based on a simplified 20380/20385 or on an upgraded gepard class since they already mastered the construction of those ship classes....

    If they need cheap and simple ship it's the easiest thing in the world. I can design them a warship that will not cost more than 200k, just don't expect it to be any good



    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:...Or, if they need a bigger endurance for antisub operation they could think again at the grigorovich class (if they can build them with russian engines) which has double the range and endurance compared with 20380 or gepard class...

    There will never again be Grigorevich-class

    It's dead and forgotten


    Sponsored content

    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate - Page 9 Empty Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Jul 20, 2019 1:59 am