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    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:41 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:.............
    Well has stated the Derk's are weakly armed for a ship of their size but they weren't built to be frontline combat ships, they basically support vessels. you should not compare them to outright combat ships,

    So kinda like Absalon-class but only smaller?
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:43 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:.............
    Well has stated the Derk's are weakly armed for a ship of their size but they weren't built to be frontline combat ships, they basically support vessels. you should not compare them to outright combat ships,

    So kinda like Absalon-class but only smaller?

    Exactly that.

    I think people think me saying "it's weakly armed" is me saying it's a bad ship no it's not a bad ship for the role it's intended for it's a fine ship.

    Tingsay

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Tingsay on Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:46 pm

    They could've made Derzkii 1000-2000t larger, with more weapons and 2 multi mission bay area openings. Then they could've forgotten about Grigo/Gorshkov/Lider, And make it the backbone of the entire Russian navy and never look back.

    I seriously love this ship. Weapons don't need to sit on the ship all the freaking time. Multi-role and Modular is the future!
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:53 pm

    Tingsay wrote:They could've made Derzkii 1000-2000t larger, with more weapons and 2 multi mission bay area openings. Then they could've forgotten about Grigo/Gorshkov/Lider, And make it the backbone of the entire Russian navy and never look back.

    I seriously love this ship. Weapons don't need to sit on the ship all the freaking time. Multi-role and Modular is the future!

    Even if they did that it would not equal a Gork's weapon count, has stated prior if you want the utility that is going to cost you weaponry, but if you want weapons that is going to cost you utility, you cannot have a ship at like 5k tons that have the Gork weapon count and Derk's utility ability, that simply cannot be done

    You cannot have one ship does it all, that simply compromises the ship trying to jam everything into one package
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Isos on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:06 am

    Again the syndrome of "small ships with a litle more space can replace every other ship" ...

    Derzki is 109m and is a corvette. Gorshkov is a frigate and is much better than a corvette.

    If you make it bigger it becomes a Gorshkov.

    Corvettes are supposed to be smaller with smaller crew and smaller endurence just to be cheaper and easier to operate. They are between Karakurt which will be very limited ships but very cheap to operate and gorshkovs which are expensive to operate and used for other tasks.

    If you have all three in black see fleet and you detect a US ship. You send first coast guards with patrol ship to see what's going on.

    Then you send a karakurt and if it doesn't leave and you know you will need to spend more time watching it, you send a Derzki equiped with kalibrs (if it is a sub you send it with anti sub kalibrs) and call back the karakurt.

    If the US ship start acting stupidly you call back the corvette in a safe zone and send a Gorshkov and the karakurt with some medicines (oniks) to join the derzki and put the medicines in the stupid ship togather.


    If a big ship like a frigate or destroyer does this it will be expensive because it is a bigger ship with bigger engines and bigger crew. Only US navy use 1 type of ship for everything and they soend a lot to use an aegis ship to watch another ship.

    And weapons are not the only thing that matters. Radars on a frigate are generaly better than those on a corvette. For steregouchshy I heard the radar is an updated bigger pantsir radar and it uses only the 40km 9M96 missiles while gorshkov can use the 120km.

    Tingsay

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Tingsay on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:07 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Tingsay wrote:They could've made Derzkii 1000-2000t larger, with more weapons and 2 multi mission bay area openings. Then they could've forgotten about Grigo/Gorshkov/Lider, And make it the backbone of the entire Russian navy and never look back.

    I seriously love this ship. Weapons don't need to sit on the ship all the freaking time. Multi-role and Modular is the future!

    Even if they did that it would not equal a Gork's weapon count, has stated prior if you want the utility that is going to cost you weaponry, but if you want weapons that is going to cost you utility, you cannot have a ship at like 5k tons that have the Gork weapon count and Derk's utility ability, that simply cannot be done

    You cannot have one ship does it all, that simply compromises the ship trying to jam everything into one package

    Ah, but who says Derzkii has to equal Gorshkov's weapon count?
    That's were the modularity comes in. They get "modified" before setting out on a mission meaning a fleet of Derzkiis is a fleet of 3 or more different type of specialized ships. Is Gorshkov going to seriously be using Anti-air, anti-sub, anti-ship, land attack in one mission? Technically they can yes, but how likely? Not likely.

    Again, I love this ship Very Happy

    The scenario I stated of a larger Derzkii being the backbone isn't going to work if they don't have larger numbers obviously.


    Last edited by Tingsay on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:08 am

    Tingsay wrote:They could've made Derzkii 1000-2000t larger, with more weapons and 2 multi mission bay area openings. Then they could've forgotten about Grigo/Gorshkov/Lider, And make it the backbone of the entire Russian navy and never look back.
    ..........

    They tried same thing already with Steregushi and Gremashi, it just doesn't work

    They need several different sizes and ranges, no going around it

    Tingsay

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Tingsay on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:11 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Tingsay wrote:They could've made Derzkii 1000-2000t larger, with more weapons and 2 multi mission bay area openings. Then they could've forgotten about Grigo/Gorshkov/Lider, And make it the backbone of the entire Russian navy and never look back.
    ..........

    They tried same thing already with Steregushi and Gremashi, it just doesn't work

    They need several different sizes and ranges, no going around it

    Well, steregushi and gremyaschy don't have the size.

    I stated a "larger" Derzkii

    But that's just me Very Happy
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Isos on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:13 am

    BTW russian ships are far better armed and more armed than french. Just compare a FREMM to a super gorshkov which are the same in length I think or even a smaller gorshkovs

    Tingsay

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Tingsay on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:22 am

    Isos wrote:Again the syndrome of "small ships with a litle more space can replace every other ship" ...

    Derzki is 109m and is a corvette. Gorshkov is a frigate and is much better than a corvette.

    If you make it bigger it becomes a Gorshkov.

    Corvettes are supposed to be  smaller with smaller crew and smaller endurence just to be cheaper and easier to operate. They are between Karakurt which will be very limited ships but very cheap to operate and gorshkovs which are expensive to operate and used for other tasks.

    If you have all three in black see fleet and you detect a US ship. You send first coast guards with patrol ship to see what's going on.

    Then you send a karakurt and if it doesn't leave and you know you will need to spend more time watching it, you send a Derzki equiped with kalibrs (if it is a sub you send it with anti sub kalibrs) and call back the karakurt.

    If the US ship start acting stupidly you call back the corvette in a safe zone and send a Gorshkov and the karakurt with some medicines (oniks) to join the derzki and put the medicines in the stupid ship togather.


    If a big ship like a frigate or destroyer does this it will be expensive because it is a bigger ship with bigger engines and bigger crew. Only US navy use 1 type of ship for everything and they soend a lot to use an aegis ship to watch another ship.

    And weapons are not the only thing that matters. Radars on a frigate are generaly better than those on a corvette. For steregouchshy I heard the radar is an updated bigger pantsir radar and it uses only the 40km 9M96 missiles while gorshkov can use the 120km.

    Your not necessarily disagreeing with me.
    I stated a "larger" Derzii, so basically a Gorshkov(or even larger) with the multi-mission bay area at the back with the new electric propulsion all wrapped up in a stealthy package.
    That would be great for the Russian navy.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:25 am

    Isos wrote:BTW russian ships are far better armed and more armed than french. Just compare a FREMM to a super gorshkov which are the same in length I think or even a smaller gorshkovs

    you mean the La Fayette? that's the only general purpose ship they have side the horizons.

    The Fayette is also way smaller than a Gork.

    The other ships are specialized for anti-sub or Anti-air
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Isos on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:38 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Isos wrote:BTW russian ships are far better armed and more armed than french. Just compare a FREMM to a super gorshkov which are the same in length I think or even a smaller gorshkovs

    you mean the La Fayette? that's the only general purpose ship they have side the horizons.

    The Fayette is also way smaller than a Gork.

    The other ships are specialized for anti-sub or Anti-air

    Not la fayette. The horizon class. Only 32 VLS for 16 aster 15 and 16 for aster 30 or cruise missiles + 8 exocet. Gorshkov is smaller and has 16 kalibr + 32 redut.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Isos on Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:42 am

    Your not necessarily disagreeing with me.
    I stated a "larger" Derzii, so basically a Gorshkov(or even larger) with the multi-mission bay area at the back with the new electric propulsion all wrapped up in a stealthy package.
    That would be great for the Russian navy. b

    They have plenty of designs for biger ships. No need for a new one.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:04 am

    Isos wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Isos wrote:BTW russian ships are far better armed and more armed than french. Just compare a FREMM to a super gorshkov which are the same in length I think or even a smaller gorshkovs

    you mean the La Fayette? that's the only general purpose ship they have side the horizons.

    The Fayette is also way smaller than a Gork.

    The other ships are specialized for anti-sub or Anti-air

    Not la fayette. The horizon class. Only 32 VLS for 16 aster 15 and 16 for aster 30 or cruise missiles + 8 exocet. Gorshkov is smaller and has 16 kalibr + 32 redut.

    Um what? they have a 48 cell dude....plus 8 anti ship missiles, plus two 76mm guns, torp tubes,

    The horizon was also built to be an Anti-Air frigate mainly so they put more anti-air missiles on it then anything, I think that was stupid sure but the horizon's vastly defeats the Gork in Anti-air ability

    I know what ship you mean and yeah the FREMM has much more weaponry than a Derk

    Even the British  Type 23 frigate has more weapons, so does the Chinese Type 054A frigate and i know someone will say "it's not a frigate" it's the size of a frigate so I will call it a frigate

    I am sorry to people here but the derk is under armed for its size that is simply not debatable.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Isos on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:43 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:



    Um what? they have a 48 cell dude....plus 8 anti ship missiles, plus two 76mm guns, torp tubes,

    The horizon was also built to be an Anti-Air frigate mainly so they put more anti-air missiles on it then anything, I think that was stupid sure but the horizon's vastly defeats the Gork in Anti-air ability

    I know what ship you mean and yeah the FREMM has much more weaponry than a Derk

    Even the British  Type 23 frigate has more weapons, so does the Chinese Type 054A frigate and i know someone will say "it's not a frigate" it's the size of a frigate so I will call it a frigate

    I am sorry to people here but the derk is under armed for its size that is simply not debatable.

    Yeah sorry I was talking about the Aquitaine class which is more known in france under the name FREMM.

    I'm talking about gorshkov which is a real frigate and a decent size. More weapons than a FREMM. Horizon are destroyer by nato standards btw. So gorshkov which is smaller is better armed.

    You can compare derzki to a Gowind which is French big corvette 102m while derzki is 109m according to wiki instead of taking frigates like type 23 or type 054A for your comparison  just so that numbers are good for your arguments.

    Gowind is also a small frigates by your standard. 102m for 2500 t. Compare that with derzki and you will see russian ships are better armed.

    So in terms of armements :
    Gorshkov 》 FREMM
    Derzki 》 gowind
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:50 am

    Isos wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Isos wrote:BTW russian ships are far better armed and more armed than french. Just compare a FREMM to a super gorshkov which are the same in length I think or even a smaller gorshkovs

    you mean the La Fayette? that's the only general purpose ship they have side the horizons.

    The Fayette is also way smaller than a Gork.

    The other ships are specialized for anti-sub or Anti-air

    Not la fayette. The horizon class. Only 32 VLS for 16 aster 15 and 16 for aster 30 or cruise missiles + 8 exocet. Gorshkov is smaller and has 16 kalibr + 32 redut.

    Um what? they have a 48 cell dude....plus 8 anti ship missiles, plus two 76mm guns, torp tubes,

    The horizon was also built to be an Anti-Air frigate mainly so they put more anti-air missiles on it then anything, I think that was stupid sure but the horizon's vastly defeats the Gork in Anti-air ability

    I know what ship you mean and yeah the FREMM has much more weaponry than a Derk

    Even the British  Type 23 frigate has more weapons, so does the Chinese Type 054A frigate and i know someone will say "it's not a frigate" it's the size of a frigate so I will call it a frigate

    I am sorry to people here but the derk is under armed for its size that is simply not debatable.

    Yeah sorry I was talking about the Aquitaine class which more known in france by FREMM.

    I'm talking about gorshkov which is a real frigate and a decent size. More weapons than a FREMM. Horizon are destroyer by nato standards btw.

    You can compare derzki to a Gowind which is French big corvette 102m while derzki is 109m according to wiki instead of take frigates like type 23 or type 054A just so that numbers are good for your arguments.

    Gowind is also a small frigates by your standard. 102m for 2500 t.

    and the Gowind class is much better weapons wise. 1 76mm, 2 CIWS, 16AA missiles, eight anti ship, 2 triple torp tubes plus one chopper.

    The derk is also 1.1k times EMPTY displacement then it will be over 1.5 when they fully loaded the Derk out.

    So the ship you stated is better weapons wise while being smaller. The dark cannot have all it's weapon it must pick and choose. I consider ships about over 3k tons frigates, I would still consider the Gowind a corvette a big one yes but still a corvette

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:13 am

    I know what ship you mean and yeah the FREMM has much more weaponry than a Derk

    Even the British Type 23 frigate has more weapons
    Suspect more weapons but both are much bigger ships, in weapons/ton Derski would be far ahead.

    Aquitaine is 7000ton ie twice the size of 20386, has 16* Aster 15 (equivalent to 9M96 50-60km), single rotating PESA, 16* SCALP (presumably can be extra Asters instead), 8* Exocet, single 76mm gun, 2* twin torp tubes & a chopper.
    Type 23 is 5000ton, has 32* Sea Wolf (~10km point defense SAM), meh radar, 8* Harpoon, single 113mm gun, 2* twin torps & a chopper.
    Gowind 2500ton has 16* MICA (20km point defense SAM), 8* Exocet, single 76mm gun, 2* triple torps & a chopper.
    Derski is 3400ton, has 16* 9M96 (up to 64* 9M100 point defense) , brand new multi-frequency fixed face AESA, 8* Kh35, 4* Kalibr, single 100mm gun, 2* quad paket torps, 1 chopper (not same time as Kalibr) & whatever fits in the multi-mission bay.
    Gorshkov is Type 23 size & the best armed of the lot.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:37 am

    Its absolutely criminal to install X-35s instead of fully integrated UKSKs on any newly built Russian ship. Also given the extremely slow buildtimes, absolutely all vessels in the Russian navy should be multirole, not with shitty interchangable modules like the LCS and derzkiy.


    The Gremyaschiis are already far superior to the derzkiys because they have integrated UKSK, are cheaper, and also have equal ASW capability.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:41 am

    The hate for Kh-35 makes no sense. Kh-35U is the standard Kh-35 missile of the Russian armed forces, which is both anti ship and ground attack missile. As far as I am aware, the Kalibr is only anti ground with other models of Kaliber for anti ship.

    Kh-35U is rather a solid missile and ideal for ground launchers, sea launchers and even launching from aircrafts.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:45 am

    miketheterrible wrote:The hate for Kh-35 makes no sense.  Kh-35U is the standard Kh-35 missile of the Russian armed forces, which is both anti ship and ground attack missile.  As far as I am aware, the Kalibr is only anti ground with other models of Kaliber for anti ship.

    Kh-35U is rather a solid missile and ideal for ground launchers, sea launchers and even launching from aircrafts.

    No, the 3M54 and the P-800 are standards. The X-35 is a relic from the late 80s. Just because its much better than the harpoon doesnt make it good for the RuN which has much more massive requirements(havve ASHMs that have a high chance of penetrating the AA of a carrier battlegroup with a dozen missiles). The RuN shouldnt compare itsself with NATO missiles. NATO can just spam 100s of harpoons every sortie and doesnt need good missiles.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  miketheterrible on Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:48 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:The hate for Kh-35 makes no sense.  Kh-35U is the standard Kh-35 missile of the Russian armed forces, which is both anti ship and ground attack missile.  As far as I am aware, the Kalibr is only anti ground with other models of Kaliber for anti ship.

    Kh-35U is rather a solid missile and ideal for ground launchers, sea launchers and even launching from aircrafts.

    No, the 3M54 and the P-800 are standards. The X-35 is a relic from the late 80s. Just because its much better than the harpoon doesnt make it good for the RuN which has much more massive requirements(havve ASHMs that have a high chance of penetrating the AA of a carrier battlegroup with a dozen missiles). The RuN shouldnt compare itsself with NATO missiles. NATO can just spam 100s of harpoons every sortie and doesnt need good missiles.

    What?

    Kh-35 is a rather cheap missile and can be used more loosely than the other missiles. 3M54 is Kalibr, and we have not really seen in in use for antiship rolls as far as i am aware due to it not being much different than Kh-35. Onyx/Yakhont missiles I don't think are used on smaller ships so thats not much for discussion.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:54 am

    miketheterrible wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:The hate for Kh-35 makes no sense.  Kh-35U is the standard Kh-35 missile of the Russian armed forces, which is both anti ship and ground attack missile.  As far as I am aware, the Kalibr is only anti ground with other models of Kaliber for anti ship.

    Kh-35U is rather a solid missile and ideal for ground launchers, sea launchers and even launching from aircrafts.

    No, the 3M54 and the P-800 are standards. The X-35 is a relic from the late 80s. Just because its much better than the harpoon doesnt make it good for the RuN which has much more massive requirements(havve ASHMs that have a high chance of penetrating the AA of a carrier battlegroup with a dozen missiles). The RuN shouldnt compare itsself with NATO missiles. NATO can just spam 100s of harpoons every sortie and doesnt need good missiles.

    What?

    Kh-35 is a rather cheap missile and can be used more loosely than the other missiles.  3M54 is Kalibr, and we have not really seen in in use for antiship rolls as far as i am aware due to it not being much different than Kh-35.  Onyx/Yakhont missiles I don't think are used on smaller ships so thats not much for discussion.
    The UKSK can fit the P-800. Russian firgates and the Gremyaschy also have the software to target with them.

    The 3M54 is land attack variant? Are you serious? Haven't you read about kalibr missile FAMILY? The 3M54 is a 2 stage supersonic missile completely superior to the X-35 in every possible way. The 3M14 is the land attack variant.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:59 am

    Seig,

    You forgot that Derzky has 8 x Kh-35 Uran as standard equipment.

    So, let's redo your comparison with Grigorovich:

    Gun Armament
    1 x 100mm for both ships. But the Derzky's gun is of a newer generation.
    2 x 30mm Gatlings fro both ships. Grigorovich does not have Kashtan, it uses same 30mm guns.

    So as far as gunnery is concerned the two ships are equal.

    Anti-air
    Redut for Derzky and Shtil for Grigorovich

    Redut is more modern and capable. So, advantage is for Derzky.

    Anti-ship
    8x URAN for Derzky. 8 x KALIBR for Grigorovich
    But, in addition to URAN, Derzky can also carry KALIBR in containers too (at the expense of other equipment)

    There may be a Grigorovich advantage, but it is a moot one.

    Anti-sub
    Both carry the same helicopter.
    Traditional 533mm Tubes and RBUs for Grigorovich. Modern PAKET for Derzky.
    Depending on the threat, advantage can be with either vessel. ASW capability will be based more on detection capability.

    It is a draw in this department.

    Landing/raiding and special missions
    Grigorovich relies on traditional craft. Derzky has more advanced deployment craft.
    Derzky will also have UAVs (armed) and robot submarines which Grigorovich does not.

    Advantage Derzky.

    Overall conclusion
    The smaller (3400 T) Derzky is not inferior to Grigorovich (4000 T) in terms of weaponry.

    Add the ingredients of superior stealth, better radars, better propulsion and smaller crew... and Derzky is the outright winner.

    Note to everyone

    A lot of posters are focusing too much on having UKSKs. They think that having UKSKs makes a ship great and not having UKSKs makes a ship poorly armed. Not true.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:47 am

    UKSKs are a massively superior no matter how much you deny it. The uran containers cant carry anti-sub missiles. The derzky by default has poor anti-ship capability and almost nonexistent long range ASW capability without UKSKs.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Isos on Thu Feb 22, 2018 9:27 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:UKSKs are a massively superior no matter how much you deny it. The uran containers cant carry anti-sub missiles. The derzky by default has poor anti-ship capability and almost nonexistent long range ASW capability without UKSKs.

    They have the container kalibr if they need kalibr missiles.

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