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    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Militarov on Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:41 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:It looks like the RuNavy will stop ordering Pr. 20380 ships.
    Instead they want to concentrate on the Pr. 20386 which they consider much superior.

    However the costs are going to jump.
    Pr.20386 ships will cost each around $450 million.
    While Pr.20380 can be obtained for half that money.

    does it have golden toilets or what? 450mln for a corvette?  BTW wasn't 20386 equipped with Kh-35 instead of Zircons/Kalibrs?

    Batch 3, FFX frigates will cost less than that Suspect

    hoom

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:55 am

    does it have golden toilets or what?
    Several reasons:
    Its 3400ton (if the laying down poster was correct) ie about size of Grigorovich bigger -> more expensive.
    Has MFR-90 gas turbines linked to a new partial integrated electric propulsion (electric for the Diesels, direct for the gas turbines) new, exotic propulsion -> more expensive.
    Zaslon new multi-frequency radar/ECM/EW system, hopefully exists & will be in service on 20385 before 20386 finishes but its still got a bunch of new expensive AESA antennae -> more expensive.
    New multi-mission bay, this is arguably cheaper since eg no permanent towed sonar, but if you count the module moving/integration infrastructure & the actual modules (including Calibr missiles in the relevant module) that would = extra cost.
    Maybe a significant effort at stealth as in actual stealthy detail stuff = more expensive.


    A theoretical force mix of 22800 + 20386 + 22350M is arguably better & simpler than 22161 21631 + 20380 + 11356/22350 + Lider.

    Edit: 21631 Embarassed


    Last edited by hoom on Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:32 pm; edited 4 times in total
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:58 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:It looks like the RuNavy will stop ordering Pr. 20380 ships.
    Instead they want to concentrate on the Pr. 20386 which they consider much superior.

    However the costs are going to jump.
    Pr.20386 ships will cost each around $450 million.
    While Pr.20380 can be obtained for half that money.

    does it have golden toilets or what? 450mln for a corvette?  BTW wasn't 20386 equipped with Kh-35 instead of Zircons/Kalibrs?

    Do you realize that 20386 is 50% larger than a 20380?
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:44 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    does it have golden toilets or what? 450mln for a corvette?  BTW wasn't 20386 equipped with Kh-35 instead of Zircons/Kalibrs?

    Do you realize that 20386 is 50% larger than a 20380?

    Yes I do. Its displacement 3,400t less vs ~3600 11356 frigates right?

    Then again fairly weak weaponry for this size. Again if you have to choose helo or module with THAT displacement?
    I must have been misunderstood a concept of modularity.








    hoom wrote:
    does it have golden toilets or what?
    Several reasons:
    Its 3400ton (if the laying down poster was correct) ie about size of Grigorovich bigger -> more expensive.
    Has MFR-90 gas turbines linked to a new partial integrated electric propulsion (electric for the Diesels, direct for the gas turbines) new, exotic propulsion -> more expensive.
    Zaslon new multi-frequency radar/ECM/EW system, hopefully exists & will be in service on 20385 before 20386 finishes but its still got a bunch of new expensive AESA antennae -> more expensive.
    New multi-mission bay, this is arguably cheaper since eg no permanent towed sonar, but if you count the module moving/integration infrastructure & the actual modules (including Calibr missiles in the relevant module) that would = extra cost.
    Maybe a significant effort at stealth as in actual stealthy detail stuff = more expensive.


    A theoretical force mix of 22800 + 20386 + 22350M is arguably better & simpler than 22161 + 20380 + 11356/22350 + Lider.

    Then what precisely task is 20386? it doesn't look like anti ship warfare. ASW? with one optional chopper? then what precisely for this money and size?

    Is 22161 armed variant of 22160?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:24 pm

    Then what precisely task is 20386? it doesn't look like anti ship warfare. ASW? with one optional chopper? then what precisely for this money and size?

    Because it's not anti-ship vessel. It is primarily anti-sub platform. And anti-sub missions are primary purpose of Russian surface navy.

    Kh-35 are for basic self-defense. And like Vladimir pointed out keeping lots of UKSK grade missiles loaded costs lots of money. Would be nice to have them but still bit redundant for anti-sub ship.

    And let's not forget that there is enough space on that ship for two anti-sub helicopters, not just one.


    hoom

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:30 pm

    Is 22161 armed variant of 22160?
    Oops, I meant Project 21631 Embarassed

    Then what precisely task is 20386? it doesn't look like anti ship warfare. ASW? with one optional chopper? then what precisely for this money and size?
    Well still better armed than LCS & probably the FFX.
    But yeah its not like I'm a super fan of it, personally prefer 20385.

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Peŕrier on Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:05 am

    Are really 20386s going to have a (cruise) electric propulsion? It is just a breakthrough new!

    If that is the case, and real world tests will be successful, it is the opening of a new era for the russian navy.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Isos on Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:15 am

    Peŕrier wrote:Are really 20386s going to have a (cruise) electric propulsion? It is just a breakthrough new!

    If that is the case, and real world tests will be successful, it is the opening of a new era for the russian navy.

    They already have issues with normal propulsion. Don't expect new technologies before at least 10 years.
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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:18 am

    PapaDragon wrote:Because it's not anti-ship vessel. It is primarily anti-sub platform. And anti-sub missions are primary purpose of Russian surface navy.

    Kh-35 are for basic self-defense. And like Vladimir pointed out keeping lots of UKSK grade missiles loaded costs lots of money. Would be nice to have them but still bit redundant for anti-sub ship.

    And let's not forget that there is enough space on that ship for two anti-sub helicopters, not just one.


    So you need frigate sized ship costing 450 mlns USD  equivalent and get in return what? carrier for 1 helo, 2x Paket NK and 1 towed sonar? it is on level of 20380. Much cheaoer would be use 22160 hulls for same equipment and rle.


    BTW  2 helos? 2 Ka-27  where if  may I ask do you want to fit them?





    hoom wrote:
    Then what precisely task is 20386? it doesn't look like anti ship warfare. ASW? with one optional chopper? then what precisely for this money and size?
    Well still better armed than LCS & probably the FFX.
    But yeah its not like I'm a super fan of it, personally prefer 20385.

    ekhm FFX costs according to wiki ~100mlns not 450 Smile

    as for FCS it is not supposed to chase subs in oceans unlike 20386. FCS is much faster (47kts) and has water jets so its quieter. Thus either something is not mentioned in class description it this class really sucks Smile))


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:19 am

    Peŕrier wrote:Are really 20386s going to have a (cruise) electric propulsion? It is just a breakthrough new!

    If that is the case, and real world tests will be successful, it is the opening of a new era for the russian navy.

    Getting even a standard propulsion working would be new era for Russian Navy...

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Peŕrier on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:32 am

    Old. all-TAG powerplants never gave any problem to soviet ships.

    The problems arose with late generation steam turbines (Sovremennji and Kuznetsov) and with present day diesel cruising engines.

    Actually, some low speed Wartsilia derived engines, russian industry simply doesn't have any specific naval diesel engine.

    They opted before sanctions for MTU diesel engines, then they resorted either to dometsic diesel powerplants born for different roles, or for chinese derivative of 70ies diesel engines.

    Mechanically decoupling the engines from the propulsion is the key to get almost any conceivable diesel engine useful in naval propulsion, because without the mechanical stress and requirements anything could work just fine.

    Electric propulsion is not only fancy because you can get rid of expensive and critical reduction gear: it enable almost anything to become a powersource because no stress at all is sent to the electric generating sets.

    It is a game changer, nothing less.

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:00 am

    ekhm FFX costs according to wiki ~100mlns not 450 Smile
    Your numbers are bad.
    LCS costs $450mil -> same cost 20386 would be a bargain.
    FFX is that plus actually useful weapons/sensors, official numbers are talking $950mil.


    as for FCS it is not supposed to chase subs in oceans unlike 20386. FCS is much faster (47kts) and has water jets so its quieter.
    Surface water jets are not quiet.


    Regarding the partial IEP here is the image from earlier in the thread (post 42)

    Personally I don't entirely understand the big deal being made of IEP recently, its not like Diesel-Electric & Turbo-Electric hasn't existed since ~'30s...
    Having the gas turbines directly connected in 20386 does mean it'll be less quiet than fully mechanically independent setup.

    Regarding 2 helicopters this is the multi-mission bay render (also post 42)

    People have suggested a 2nd chopper could be stored in the mission bay but the door isn't tall enough.

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Peŕrier on Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:53 am

    Electric propulsion has been more and more times applied to surface ships in the past, but the small powers available in the electric motors of the past never enabled it to go beyond niche applications, such as auxiliary propulsion to be used in mine hunting or ASW.

    Nowadays, electric propulsion is available in both compact and powerful sets, and it brings a lot of advantages: because thermal engines are no longer mechanically connected to axis and screws, any location in the hull could be chosen to place them, you could either have very few generator sets or several smaller ones increasing redundancy, emergency electric generators could provide electric power even for propulsion in an total failover and viceversa, electric engines have torques far greater than thermal ones granting both greater accelerations and decelerations, electric engines are almost noiseless on themselves so you could switch off all the thermal engines except one or two small and totally sound insulated, and perform a really silent small speed ASW hunt leaving a sub little chance to know your course and position.

    And of course, electric propulsion makes a large electric power generation capacity available to the ship, that will be almost mandatory if direct energy weapons will become successful.
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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:53 am

    hoom wrote:
    ekhm FFX costs according to wiki ~100mlns not 450 Smile
    Your numbers are bad.
    LCS costs $450mil -> same cost 20386 would be a bargain.
    FFX is that plus actually useful weapons/sensors, official numbers are talking $950mil.

    FFX not sure about source of your numbers but as for FCS so Russian navy now needs overpriced ASW ships with moderate ASW a ilities? !!!


    hoom wrote:
    Regarding 2 helicopters this is the multi-mission bay render (also post 42)

    People have suggested a 2nd chopper could be stored in the mission bay but the door isn't tall enough.

    It is but still not enough place for second helo. Isnt it 20ft containers bay? so still point is this is not ASW ship better then 20380. For double price? Ah yes licensed copy S-100 UAV can be carried eventually too.

    Frankly? I am not a big fan of expensive ship with no better capabilities for actually anything than predecessors.

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Peŕrier on Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:00 pm

    More than a second helicopter, I think a permanent provision for a couple of S-100 UAVs, or anything similar, wiuld be ideal for such kind of ship.

    Two medium helicopters are a little too much for a vessel of such size, unless the hull is designed with that as the primary requirement.

    But historically soviet and russian ships never deployed more than a single helicopters in hulls under the 6000 tonnes mark, so I believe it is a specific requirement to have just one onboard of the 20386s as well.

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Peŕrier on Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:05 pm

    Just a second tought: in the rendering above (that about the propulsion plant) are the red engines the diesel generator, the green the electric engines and the orange are the gas turbines?
    With the the reduction gears represented in blu, if I am right.

    Does it have active stabilisation fins or just fixed ones?

    From the rendering, I would say they are active ones, but obviously no shaft is rendered so it could be I am plainly and plenty wrong.

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:32 pm

    It is but still not enough place for second helo. Isnt it 20ft containers bay? so still point is this is not ASW ship better then 20380. For double price? Ah yes licensed copy S-100 UAV can be carried eventually too.

    Frankly? I am not a big fan of expensive ship with no better capabilities for actually anything than predecessors.
    I think you misunderstood, I'm saying there is no 2nd helo, the door (at least as rendered there) is too short to move a big chopper through.

    No better capabilities? A brand new multi-frequency AESA setup, extra SAMs, Kalibr capability, faster top speed, better endurance & multi-mission bay don't count as better capabilities? Suspect
    Edit: think of 20386 as a GP frigate rather than an ASW corvette.


    Last edited by hoom on Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:56 pm

    Pr. 20386 (3400 T) and Pr. 11356 (4000 T) are at about the same price.

    The Pr. 20386 has superior stealth characteristics, newer generation sensors, newer generation SAMs, more advanced technology, more advanced propulsion, smaller crew, lower fuel consumption and better ability to deploy special forces. If the mission requires it, it can also carry containerized KALIBR.

    Pr. 11356 is a fine and capable ship but it is yesterday's ship. Pr. 20386 is tomorrow's ship and the way forward.

    Compared to the Pr. 20380 (2200 T), the Pr.20386 costs about 50% more. Compared to the Pr. 20385 (2500 T), it costs only slightly more. But the Pr. 20386 offers better sea worthiness thanks to its larger displacement.

    The Navy wants to go ahead with the Pr. 20386. If you guys still disagree, please write a letter to the Admirals in the Glavkomand.

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Peŕrier on Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:16 pm

    Very Happy

    Jokes apart, it looks really gorgeus.

    I hope new and detailed renderings will emerge in the near future.
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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:43 pm

    hoom wrote:
    It is but still not enough place for second helo. Isnt it 20ft containers bay? so still point is this is not ASW ship better then 20380. For double price? Ah yes licensed copy S-100 UAV can be carried eventually too.

    Frankly? I am not a big fan of expensive ship with no better capabilities for actually anything than predecessors.
    I think you misunderstood, I'm saying there is no 2nd helo, the door (at least as rendered there) is too short to move a big chopper through.

    No better capabilities? A brand new multi-frequency AESA setup, extra SAMs, Kalibr capability, faster top speed, better endurance & multi-mission bay don't count as better capabilities? Suspect
    Edit: think of 20386 as a GP frigate rather than an ASW corvette.

    Door is definitely big enough to move chopper through. That bay is supposed to receive different equipment on the fly so door size accommodates that.

    Also, helicopter can't be serviced in that bay, it's too tight, it needs to be moved to the back section for maintenance and checkup.

    Also, they can simultaneously use Ka-27 + Ka-226 combo. One for ASW other for general S&R work. Extra simplicity.

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Peŕrier on Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:15 pm

    Nope, if the rendering is true, back is more cramped than the helo bay, and there would even be no room at all to detach the rotor shaft.

    In the bay at least, opening the roof would enable rotor removal.

    Maybe not that practical but always better than nothing.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:59 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Door is definitely big enough to move chopper through. That bay is supposed to receive different equipment on the fly so door size accommodates that.

    Also, helicopter can't be serviced in that bay, it's too tight, it needs to be moved to the back section for maintenance and checkup.

    Also, they can simultaneously use Ka-27 + Ka-226 combo. One for ASW other for general S&R work. Extra simplicity.


    So far it is either 4 kalibrs or 1 helo . No place fo anything else. Where do you get info about Ka-226?! OK this is only my opinion. I am no admiral IMHO not worth experiment resources it requires.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:59 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:.......
    So far it is either 4 kalibrs or 1 helo . No place fo anything else. Where do you get info about Ka-226?! OK this is only my opinion. I am no admiral IMHO not worth experiment resources it requires.

    You seem to be right. So those ships would be preloaded for either ASW or anti-ship/land attack before departure.

    Still it's a bit wasteful not to simply install bit taller doors, would do wonders for flexibility. As for Ka-226, it was just me being creative.

    And if helicopter is permanently parked there then what's the point of those two containers in the back?


    hoom

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:39 am

    no room at all to detach the rotor shaft.
    yeah looks like it might maybe fit through without the rotor shaft but I presume thats not the sort of thing you would do at sea for storage.

    Still it's a bit wasteful not to simply install bit taller doors, would do wonders for flexibility. As for Ka-226, it was just me being creative.
    I think the limit is the yellow module/container gantry system, probably a Ka-226 would still be too tall.

    And if helicopter is permanently parked there then what's the point of those two containers in the back?
    Point is the towed array, boats & containers are all replaceable with modules to do other stuff: air/sea/sub drones, missiles, diving stuff, emergency gear, minesweeping gear, just supplies to extend endurance/drop off somewhere, whatever you can fit in a container.
    Unlike LCS, 20386 will always have a decent base capability without container modules.
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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:23 pm

    hoom wrote:...................
    Point is the towed array, boats & containers are all replaceable with modules to do other stuff: air/sea/sub drones, missiles, diving stuff, emergency gear, minesweeping gear, just supplies to extend endurance/drop off somewhere, whatever you can fit in a container.
    Unlike LCS, 20386 will always have a decent base capability without container modules.


    Another question:

    If this ship is loaded with UKSK container and without helicopter does it have any methods of targeting submarines it detects?

    Also, Uran launchers are equipped with Kh-35 missiles. Are there any indications that they might be developing some new ordinance for Uran launchers like supersonic Anti-ship missiles or anti-sub missiles?

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