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    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

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    Isos

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Isos on Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:15 am

    Peŕrier wrote:Are really 20386s going to have a (cruise) electric propulsion? It is just a breakthrough new!

    If that is the case, and real world tests will be successful, it is the opening of a new era for the russian navy.

    They already have issues with normal propulsion. Don't expect new technologies before at least 10 years.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:18 am

    PapaDragon wrote:Because it's not anti-ship vessel. It is primarily anti-sub platform. And anti-sub missions are primary purpose of Russian surface navy.

    Kh-35 are for basic self-defense. And like Vladimir pointed out keeping lots of UKSK grade missiles loaded costs lots of money. Would be nice to have them but still bit redundant for anti-sub ship.

    And let's not forget that there is enough space on that ship for two anti-sub helicopters, not just one.


    So you need frigate sized ship costing 450 mlns USD  equivalent and get in return what? carrier for 1 helo, 2x Paket NK and 1 towed sonar? it is on level of 20380. Much cheaoer would be use 22160 hulls for same equipment and rle.


    BTW  2 helos? 2 Ka-27  where if  may I ask do you want to fit them?





    hoom wrote:
    Then what precisely task is 20386? it doesn't look like anti ship warfare. ASW? with one optional chopper? then what precisely for this money and size?
    Well still better armed than LCS & probably the FFX.
    But yeah its not like I'm a super fan of it, personally prefer 20385.

    ekhm FFX costs according to wiki ~100mlns not 450 Smile

    as for FCS it is not supposed to chase subs in oceans unlike 20386. FCS is much faster (47kts) and has water jets so its quieter. Thus either something is not mentioned in class description it this class really sucks Smile))


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:19 am

    Peŕrier wrote:Are really 20386s going to have a (cruise) electric propulsion? It is just a breakthrough new!

    If that is the case, and real world tests will be successful, it is the opening of a new era for the russian navy.

    Getting even a standard propulsion working would be new era for Russian Navy...

    hoom

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:00 am

    ekhm FFX costs according to wiki ~100mlns not 450 Smile
    Your numbers are bad.
    LCS costs $450mil -> same cost 20386 would be a bargain.
    FFX is that plus actually useful weapons/sensors, official numbers are talking $950mil.


    as for FCS it is not supposed to chase subs in oceans unlike 20386. FCS is much faster (47kts) and has water jets so its quieter.
    Surface water jets are not quiet.


    Regarding the partial IEP here is the image from earlier in the thread (post 42)

    Personally I don't entirely understand the big deal being made of IEP recently, its not like Diesel-Electric & Turbo-Electric hasn't existed since ~'30s...
    Having the gas turbines directly connected in 20386 does mean it'll be less quiet than fully mechanically independent setup.

    Regarding 2 helicopters this is the multi-mission bay render (also post 42)

    People have suggested a 2nd chopper could be stored in the mission bay but the door isn't tall enough.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:53 am

    hoom wrote:
    ekhm FFX costs according to wiki ~100mlns not 450 Smile
    Your numbers are bad.
    LCS costs $450mil -> same cost 20386 would be a bargain.
    FFX is that plus actually useful weapons/sensors, official numbers are talking $950mil.

    FFX not sure about source of your numbers but as for FCS so Russian navy now needs overpriced ASW ships with moderate ASW a ilities? !!!


    hoom wrote:
    Regarding 2 helicopters this is the multi-mission bay render (also post 42)

    People have suggested a 2nd chopper could be stored in the mission bay but the door isn't tall enough.

    It is but still not enough place for second helo. Isnt it 20ft containers bay? so still point is this is not ASW ship better then 20380. For double price? Ah yes licensed copy S-100 UAV can be carried eventually too.

    Frankly? I am not a big fan of expensive ship with no better capabilities for actually anything than predecessors.

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Peŕrier on Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:00 pm

    More than a second helicopter, I think a permanent provision for a couple of S-100 UAVs, or anything similar, wiuld be ideal for such kind of ship.

    Two medium helicopters are a little too much for a vessel of such size, unless the hull is designed with that as the primary requirement.

    But historically soviet and russian ships never deployed more than a single helicopters in hulls under the 6000 tonnes mark, so I believe it is a specific requirement to have just one onboard of the 20386s as well.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:32 pm

    It is but still not enough place for second helo. Isnt it 20ft containers bay? so still point is this is not ASW ship better then 20380. For double price? Ah yes licensed copy S-100 UAV can be carried eventually too.

    Frankly? I am not a big fan of expensive ship with no better capabilities for actually anything than predecessors.
    I think you misunderstood, I'm saying there is no 2nd helo, the door (at least as rendered there) is too short to move a big chopper through.

    No better capabilities? A brand new multi-frequency AESA setup, extra SAMs, Kalibr capability, faster top speed, better endurance & multi-mission bay don't count as better capabilities? Suspect
    Edit: think of 20386 as a GP frigate rather than an ASW corvette.


    Last edited by hoom on Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:56 pm

    Pr. 20386 (3400 T) and Pr. 11356 (4000 T) are at about the same price.

    The Pr. 20386 has superior stealth characteristics, newer generation sensors, newer generation SAMs, more advanced technology, more advanced propulsion, smaller crew, lower fuel consumption and better ability to deploy special forces. If the mission requires it, it can also carry containerized KALIBR.

    Pr. 11356 is a fine and capable ship but it is yesterday's ship. Pr. 20386 is tomorrow's ship and the way forward.

    Compared to the Pr. 20380 (2200 T), the Pr.20386 costs about 50% more. Compared to the Pr. 20385 (2500 T), it costs only slightly more. But the Pr. 20386 offers better sea worthiness thanks to its larger displacement.

    The Navy wants to go ahead with the Pr. 20386. If you guys still disagree, please write a letter to the Admirals in the Glavkomand.

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Peŕrier on Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:16 pm

    Very Happy

    Jokes apart, it looks really gorgeus.

    I hope new and detailed renderings will emerge in the near future.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:43 pm

    hoom wrote:
    It is but still not enough place for second helo. Isnt it 20ft containers bay? so still point is this is not ASW ship better then 20380. For double price? Ah yes licensed copy S-100 UAV can be carried eventually too.

    Frankly? I am not a big fan of expensive ship with no better capabilities for actually anything than predecessors.
    I think you misunderstood, I'm saying there is no 2nd helo, the door (at least as rendered there) is too short to move a big chopper through.

    No better capabilities? A brand new multi-frequency AESA setup, extra SAMs, Kalibr capability, faster top speed, better endurance & multi-mission bay don't count as better capabilities? Suspect
    Edit: think of 20386 as a GP frigate rather than an ASW corvette.

    Door is definitely big enough to move chopper through. That bay is supposed to receive different equipment on the fly so door size accommodates that.

    Also, helicopter can't be serviced in that bay, it's too tight, it needs to be moved to the back section for maintenance and checkup.

    Also, they can simultaneously use Ka-27 + Ka-226 combo. One for ASW other for general S&R work. Extra simplicity.

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Peŕrier on Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:15 pm

    Nope, if the rendering is true, back is more cramped than the helo bay, and there would even be no room at all to detach the rotor shaft.

    In the bay at least, opening the roof would enable rotor removal.

    Maybe not that practical but always better than nothing.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:59 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Door is definitely big enough to move chopper through. That bay is supposed to receive different equipment on the fly so door size accommodates that.

    Also, helicopter can't be serviced in that bay, it's too tight, it needs to be moved to the back section for maintenance and checkup.

    Also, they can simultaneously use Ka-27 + Ka-226 combo. One for ASW other for general S&R work. Extra simplicity.


    So far it is either 4 kalibrs or 1 helo . No place fo anything else. Where do you get info about Ka-226?! OK this is only my opinion. I am no admiral IMHO not worth experiment resources it requires.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:59 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:.......
    So far it is either 4 kalibrs or 1 helo . No place fo anything else. Where do you get info about Ka-226?! OK this is only my opinion. I am no admiral IMHO not worth experiment resources it requires.

    You seem to be right. So those ships would be preloaded for either ASW or anti-ship/land attack before departure.

    Still it's a bit wasteful not to simply install bit taller doors, would do wonders for flexibility. As for Ka-226, it was just me being creative.

    And if helicopter is permanently parked there then what's the point of those two containers in the back?


    hoom

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:39 am

    no room at all to detach the rotor shaft.
    yeah looks like it might maybe fit through without the rotor shaft but I presume thats not the sort of thing you would do at sea for storage.

    Still it's a bit wasteful not to simply install bit taller doors, would do wonders for flexibility. As for Ka-226, it was just me being creative.
    I think the limit is the yellow module/container gantry system, probably a Ka-226 would still be too tall.

    And if helicopter is permanently parked there then what's the point of those two containers in the back?
    Point is the towed array, boats & containers are all replaceable with modules to do other stuff: air/sea/sub drones, missiles, diving stuff, emergency gear, minesweeping gear, just supplies to extend endurance/drop off somewhere, whatever you can fit in a container.
    Unlike LCS, 20386 will always have a decent base capability without container modules.
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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:23 pm

    hoom wrote:...................
    Point is the towed array, boats & containers are all replaceable with modules to do other stuff: air/sea/sub drones, missiles, diving stuff, emergency gear, minesweeping gear, just supplies to extend endurance/drop off somewhere, whatever you can fit in a container.
    Unlike LCS, 20386 will always have a decent base capability without container modules.


    Another question:

    If this ship is loaded with UKSK container and without helicopter does it have any methods of targeting submarines it detects?

    Also, Uran launchers are equipped with Kh-35 missiles. Are there any indications that they might be developing some new ordinance for Uran launchers like supersonic Anti-ship missiles or anti-sub missiles?

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Peŕrier on Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:35 pm

    yeah looks like it might maybe fit through without the rotor shaft but I presume thats not the sort of thing you would do at sea for storage

    No, I didn't meant the helicopter gas to be stored without its rotor.

    I meant that in case maintainance work in the transmission would be required, It would not possibile ti remove the rotor shaft, unless opening the roof to grant the required clearance.

    Any other maintenance work, blades' detachment as well, could be performed without too much fuss.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Isos on Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:34 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    hoom wrote:...................
    Point is the towed array, boats & containers are all replaceable with modules to do other stuff: air/sea/sub drones, missiles, diving stuff, emergency gear, minesweeping gear, just supplies to extend endurance/drop off somewhere, whatever you can fit in a container.
    Unlike LCS, 20386 will always have a decent base capability without container modules.


    Another question:

    If this ship is loaded with UKSK container and without helicopter does it have any methods of targeting submarines it detects?

    Also, Uran launchers are equipped with Kh-35 missiles. Are there any indications that they might be developing some new ordinance for Uran launchers like supersonic Anti-ship missiles or anti-sub missiles?

    There is already a torpedo missile for Kalibr family. So yes it could target a submarine if it carries uksk.

    Uran are for cheap vessels as a self defence system. Vital ships will all get uksk so it is unliklely they develop new missiles. Unless if export countries like vietnam or india who use uran in big numbers want something new.
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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:57 pm

    Isos wrote:................
    There is already a torpedo missile for Kalibr family. So yes it could target a submarine if it carries uksk.

    I know about that, what I mean was could vessel without helicopter or torpedo UKSK fight off submarine somehow?

    Isos wrote:......Uran are for cheap vessels as a self defence system. Vital ships will all get uksk so it is unliklely they develop new missiles. Unless if export countries like vietnam or india who use uran in big numbers want something new.

    Yes but those launchers will be in use for decades on quite a few ships and at some point Kh-35 will be long in the tooth so developing something new that fits Uran launcher should be prudent.
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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:21 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Another question:

    If this ship is loaded with UKSK container and without helicopter does it have any methods of targeting submarines it detects?

    Also, Uran launchers are equipped with Kh-35 missiles. Are there any indications that they might be developing some new ordinance for Uran launchers like supersonic Anti-ship missiles or anti-sub missiles?

    Then only answer I can see is UAV gizmos in 2 extra 20ft containers
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Isos on Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:53 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:................
    There is already a torpedo missile for Kalibr family. So yes it could target a submarine if it carries uksk.

    I know about that, what I mean was could vessel without helicopter or torpedo UKSK fight off submarine somehow?


    They have SIGMA management system so they should be able to get informations from other plateforms.


    Isos wrote:......Uran are for cheap vessels as a self defence system. Vital ships will all get uksk so it is unliklely they develop new missiles. Unless if export countries like vietnam or india who use uran in big numbers want something new.

    Yes but those launchers will be in use for decades on quite a few ships and at some point Kh-35 will be long in the tooth so developing something new that fits Uran launcher should be prudent.

    I don't think they will. UKSK is Worth the money, Urans not really. Kh-35 is good enough for small battles and specially that now NATO frigates are more and more armed with CIWS as main anti air defence. What they should do is develop a new anti ship missiles for their helicopter. Kh-35 can be used by ka-32 but it's a big missiles and they don't operate ka-32. Something smaller and faster would be better. And their kamovs can already deliver torpedos.



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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:27 pm

    There are Armchair Admirals and there are real Admirals.

    The real Admirals of the RuNavy classify the ships by Ranks.

    The Pr.20386 ships are not first rank ships. The first rank surface ships are the Kuznetsov, Pyotr Veliky, Nakhimov, Slava class cruisers.
    The Udaloy and Sovremenny destroyers are 2nd rank ships, so is the Gorshkov.
    I don't know how they will classify the Pr. 20386, probably 3rd rank.
    Do not think of this class of ships as the spearhead of the navy.

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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:29 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Isos wrote:................
    There is already a torpedo missile for Kalibr ..............
    ......

    Isos wrote:......Uran are for cheap vessels as a self defence system. Vital ships will all get uksk so it is unliklely they develop new missiles. Unless if export countries like vietnam or india who use uran in big numbers want something new.

    Yes but those launchers will be in use for decades on quite a few ships and at some point Kh-35 will be long in the tooth so developing something new that fits Uran launcher should be prudent.

    Regarding Kh-35 Uran. It is one of the best subsonic anti-ship missiles (if not the best). Range of latest version of 260 km is sufficient for most (if not all) naval battles in Baltic and Black Seas. Like all Russian/Soviet Anti-ship missiles it has anti-land strike mode.
    It is not supersonic version of Kalibr or Onyx or upcoming Zircon. But it is very compact, flies very low, is faster than most other subsonic missiles. It is deadly against NATO ships that even have CIWS. By the way, Gun-based CIWS are not as great as advertised, they are a desperate last ditch attempt to save a ship who's SAMs have missed to intercept the AShM.

    Anyways, the Pr.20386's main missions will not be Anti-ship warfare. Leave that to the Karakurts and other vessels. There are many other missions to do in a Navy.

    Regarding ASW, the pr.20386 will use Paket torpedos and Ka-27 helicopters.
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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:31 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:

    Another question:

    If this ship is loaded with UKSK container and without helicopter does it have any methods of targeting submarines it detects?

    Also, Uran launchers are equipped with Kh-35 missiles. Are there any indications that they might be developing some new ordinance for Uran launchers like supersonic Anti-ship missiles or anti-sub missiles?

    Then only answer  I can see is UAV gizmos in 2 extra 20ft containers

    I knew you could think straight when you are not drunk Laughing

    The multi-use under deck space will also be used for unmanned warfare (UAVs and Robot submarines) of various types. This type of warfare is going to be very popular and interesting in the coming years and decades. As I mentioned in a previous post, the pr.20386 is designed for the future.

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:03 pm


    I was thinking about it a bit and it just occurred to me that load-out of these ship would actually be determined by where they operate at that particular time. Basically they will have two modes:

    1) Missions close to Russia: in this case these ships will operate alone and their primary mission will be anti-sub work which mean that they will be carrying ASW helicopter while space behind it will be reserved for support and maintenance of that helicopter (weapons, fuel, spare parts, etc...)  

    2) Missions further away from Russia: in this case they will operate as part of groups of vessels which would include larger ships like Udalois, Gorshkovs or Super-Gorshkovs which already have one or two ASW helicopters available each. In this case 20386s would forgo all anti-sub equipment as they wouldn't need it because other vessels would providing protection from submarines (and usually they would also have friendly submarine tagging along as well)

    For these missions  they would carry UKSK container while space behind would be used to store extra supplies needed to keep up with these other long-range ships for longer periods of time without need to return to port.



    TheArmenian wrote:...Anyways, the Pr.20386's main missions will not be Anti-ship warfare. Leave that to the Karakurts and other vessels....

    Agreed in full.

    And now that you mentioned Karakurts, paring 20386 with one or two Karakurts and maybe even Kilo submarine would make for excellent small naval units. 20386 handles anti-sub and anti-air work while Karakurts handle anti-ship part. Kilos do their standard thing.

    They perfectly complement each other.



    TheArmenian wrote:.............The multi-use under deck space will also be used for unmanned warfare (UAVs and Robot submarines) of various types. This type of warfare is going to be very popular and interesting in the coming years and decades. As I mentioned in a previous post, the pr.20386 is designed for the future.

    Correct, we all missed that part. Those two side-bays are ideal for deploying underwater drones. They were definitely thinking ahead with these ships.

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:35 am

    They were definitely thinking ahead with these ships.
    More like looking at LCS, taking the good ideas, fixing the stupid & customising relevant to Russian domestic needs.

    The big concerns are:
    Its expensive when 20385 was already considered too expensive. (but as before if you consider it relative to Frigate classes it looks better)
    Will the Zaslon radar system actually emerge & work properly/with 9M96 (&/or 9M96 actually eventually work properly depending on what the actual issue is).
    Currently the only actual known container module being developed is Kalibr & a working example of that hasn't actually been demonstrated yet.
    New novel propulsion system.
    The hullshape is actually pretty novel, does have some risk.

    To a certain extent though I still think just building more 11356 could be quicker & more effective for similar price.

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