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    Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:40 am

    miketheterrible wrote:

    Kh-35 missiles of latest modification can also attack land targets as well as ships.  So that is also an ideal system too.

    But their range is still belów 300km
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:39 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:

    Kh-35 missiles of latest modification can also attack land targets as well as ships.  So that is also an ideal system too.

    But their range is still belów 300km

    They should develop anti-sub version of Kh-35, should be simple enough

    Having Uran launcher compatible anti-sub missile would really give ships some extra flexibility
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Nov 03, 2017 2:00 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:

    Kh-35 missiles of latest modification can also attack land targets as well as ships.  So that is also an ideal system too.

    But their range is still belów 300km

    They should develop anti-sub version of Kh-35, should be simple enough

    Having Uran launcher compatible anti-sub missile would really give ships some extra flexibility

    For this would be enough using rocket torpedoes in Calber containers. Maybe indeed with many Karakurts having something with better AA and antisub protection makes sense. The only question is price. Looks like 22350 is less expensive then 20386.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:37 am

    '
    This image of new Karakurt pretty much solves that UKSK dilemma for Derzkii class. It can easily fit into the slot where Uran launchers are located:

    hoom

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:24 am

    Obviously yes the volume of that slot is more than ample for a UKSK module.
    Whether there is top-weight for it I dunno, as is it looks pretty top-heavy already.

    I still can't think of a really legit reason for its absence in the first place.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:50 pm

    hoom wrote:Obviously yes the volume of that slot is more than ample for a UKSK module.
    Whether there is top-weight for it I dunno, as is it looks pretty top-heavy already.

    I still can't think of a really legit reason for its absence in the first place.

    Price probably, they may want to keep price of first ship in class low
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:31 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    hoom wrote:Obviously yes the volume of that slot is more than ample for a UKSK module.
    Whether there is top-weight for it I dunno, as is it looks pretty top-heavy already.

    I still can't think of a really legit reason for its absence in the first place.

    Price probably, they may want to keep price of first ship in class low

    Not only initial price but operational cost. To keep a full load of missiles constantly on the ready is expensive, even the USN doesn't go to sea with full load-outs unless in wartime.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Isos on Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:00 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    hoom wrote:Obviously yes the volume of that slot is more than ample for a UKSK module.
    Whether there is top-weight for it I dunno, as is it looks pretty top-heavy already.

    I still can't think of a really legit reason for its absence in the first place.

    Price probably, they may want to keep price of first ship in class low

    Not only initial price but operational cost.  To keep a full load of missiles constantly on the ready is expensive, even the USN doesn't go to sea with full load-outs unless in wartime.

    Isn't it the same to store missiles in UKSK or in a storage complexe on land ?
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:08 pm

    Isos wrote:..............

    Isn't it the same to store missiles in UKSK or in a storage complexe on land ?

    Well, missiles stored in warehouse on land don't move and shake with the ship so that might also factor in but this is just guesswork on my part... dunno



    ALSO:

    Navy expects to receive three new project 20386 corvette by 2025

    http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/4756219

    They want 10 overall, looks like Steregushi class will officially be superseded
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:09 pm

    It looks like the RuNavy will stop ordering Pr. 20380 ships.
    Instead they want to concentrate on the Pr. 20386 which they consider much superior.

    However the costs are going to jump.
    Pr.20386 ships will cost each around $450 million.
    While Pr.20380 can be obtained for half that money.
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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:03 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:It looks like the RuNavy will stop ordering Pr. 20380 ships.
    Instead they want to concentrate on the Pr. 20386 which they consider much superior.

    However the costs are going to jump.
    Pr.20386 ships will cost each around $450 million.
    While Pr.20380 can be obtained for half that money.


    Good call

    Yes the price is steeper but specs are also much better and it has better upgrade potential

    20380 had pretty slow production rate anyway so better to invest in quality if you can't get quantity

    Besides it's time to move on to next thing
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:14 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:It looks like the RuNavy will stop ordering Pr. 20380 ships.
    Instead they want to concentrate on the Pr. 20386 which they consider much superior.

    However the costs are going to jump.
    Pr.20386 ships will cost each around $450 million.
    While Pr.20380 can be obtained for half that money.

    does it have golden toilets or what? 450mln for a corvette? BTW wasn't 20386 equipped with Kh-35 instead of Zircons/Kalibrs?

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:55 am

    does it have golden toilets or what?
    Several reasons:
    Its 3400ton (if the laying down poster was correct) ie about size of Grigorovich bigger -> more expensive.
    Has MFR-90 gas turbines linked to a new partial integrated electric propulsion (electric for the Diesels, direct for the gas turbines) new, exotic propulsion -> more expensive.
    Zaslon new multi-frequency radar/ECM/EW system, hopefully exists & will be in service on 20385 before 20386 finishes but its still got a bunch of new expensive AESA antennae -> more expensive.
    New multi-mission bay, this is arguably cheaper since eg no permanent towed sonar, but if you count the module moving/integration infrastructure & the actual modules (including Calibr missiles in the relevant module) that would = extra cost.
    Maybe a significant effort at stealth as in actual stealthy detail stuff = more expensive.


    A theoretical force mix of 22800 + 20386 + 22350M is arguably better & simpler than 22161 21631 + 20380 + 11356/22350 + Lider.

    Edit: 21631 Embarassed


    Last edited by hoom on Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:32 pm; edited 4 times in total
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:58 am

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:It looks like the RuNavy will stop ordering Pr. 20380 ships.
    Instead they want to concentrate on the Pr. 20386 which they consider much superior.

    However the costs are going to jump.
    Pr.20386 ships will cost each around $450 million.
    While Pr.20380 can be obtained for half that money.

    does it have golden toilets or what? 450mln for a corvette?  BTW wasn't 20386 equipped with Kh-35 instead of Zircons/Kalibrs?

    Do you realize that 20386 is 50% larger than a 20380?
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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:44 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    does it have golden toilets or what? 450mln for a corvette?  BTW wasn't 20386 equipped with Kh-35 instead of Zircons/Kalibrs?

    Do you realize that 20386 is 50% larger than a 20380?

    Yes I do. Its displacement 3,400t less vs ~3600 11356 frigates right?

    Then again fairly weak weaponry for this size. Again if you have to choose helo or module with THAT displacement?
    I must have been misunderstood a concept of modularity.








    hoom wrote:
    does it have golden toilets or what?
    Several reasons:
    Its 3400ton (if the laying down poster was correct) ie about size of Grigorovich bigger -> more expensive.
    Has MFR-90 gas turbines linked to a new partial integrated electric propulsion (electric for the Diesels, direct for the gas turbines) new, exotic propulsion -> more expensive.
    Zaslon new multi-frequency radar/ECM/EW system, hopefully exists & will be in service on 20385 before 20386 finishes but its still got a bunch of new expensive AESA antennae -> more expensive.
    New multi-mission bay, this is arguably cheaper since eg no permanent towed sonar, but if you count the module moving/integration infrastructure & the actual modules (including Calibr missiles in the relevant module) that would = extra cost.
    Maybe a significant effort at stealth as in actual stealthy detail stuff = more expensive.


    A theoretical force mix of 22800 + 20386 + 22350M is arguably better & simpler than 22161 + 20380 + 11356/22350 + Lider.

    Then what precisely task is 20386? it doesn't look like anti ship warfare. ASW? with one optional chopper? then what precisely for this money and size?

    Is 22161 armed variant of 22160?
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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:24 pm

    Then what precisely task is 20386? it doesn't look like anti ship warfare. ASW? with one optional chopper? then what precisely for this money and size?

    Because it's not anti-ship vessel. It is primarily anti-sub platform. And anti-sub missions are primary purpose of Russian surface navy.

    Kh-35 are for basic self-defense. And like Vladimir pointed out keeping lots of UKSK grade missiles loaded costs lots of money. Would be nice to have them but still bit redundant for anti-sub ship.

    And let's not forget that there is enough space on that ship for two anti-sub helicopters, not just one.


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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:30 pm

    Is 22161 armed variant of 22160?
    Oops, I meant Project 21631 Embarassed

    Then what precisely task is 20386? it doesn't look like anti ship warfare. ASW? with one optional chopper? then what precisely for this money and size?
    Well still better armed than LCS & probably the FFX.
    But yeah its not like I'm a super fan of it, personally prefer 20385.

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Peŕrier on Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:05 am

    Are really 20386s going to have a (cruise) electric propulsion? It is just a breakthrough new!

    If that is the case, and real world tests will be successful, it is the opening of a new era for the russian navy.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Isos on Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:15 am

    Peŕrier wrote:Are really 20386s going to have a (cruise) electric propulsion? It is just a breakthrough new!

    If that is the case, and real world tests will be successful, it is the opening of a new era for the russian navy.

    They already have issues with normal propulsion. Don't expect new technologies before at least 10 years.
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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:18 am

    PapaDragon wrote:Because it's not anti-ship vessel. It is primarily anti-sub platform. And anti-sub missions are primary purpose of Russian surface navy.

    Kh-35 are for basic self-defense. And like Vladimir pointed out keeping lots of UKSK grade missiles loaded costs lots of money. Would be nice to have them but still bit redundant for anti-sub ship.

    And let's not forget that there is enough space on that ship for two anti-sub helicopters, not just one.


    So you need frigate sized ship costing 450 mlns USD  equivalent and get in return what? carrier for 1 helo, 2x Paket NK and 1 towed sonar? it is on level of 20380. Much cheaoer would be use 22160 hulls for same equipment and rle.


    BTW  2 helos? 2 Ka-27  where if  may I ask do you want to fit them?





    hoom wrote:
    Then what precisely task is 20386? it doesn't look like anti ship warfare. ASW? with one optional chopper? then what precisely for this money and size?
    Well still better armed than LCS & probably the FFX.
    But yeah its not like I'm a super fan of it, personally prefer 20385.

    ekhm FFX costs according to wiki ~100mlns not 450 Smile

    as for FCS it is not supposed to chase subs in oceans unlike 20386. FCS is much faster (47kts) and has water jets so its quieter. Thus either something is not mentioned in class description it this class really sucks Smile))


    Last edited by GunshipDemocracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:19 am

    Peŕrier wrote:Are really 20386s going to have a (cruise) electric propulsion? It is just a breakthrough new!

    If that is the case, and real world tests will be successful, it is the opening of a new era for the russian navy.

    Getting even a standard propulsion working would be new era for Russian Navy...

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:00 am

    ekhm FFX costs according to wiki ~100mlns not 450 Smile
    Your numbers are bad.
    LCS costs $450mil -> same cost 20386 would be a bargain.
    FFX is that plus actually useful weapons/sensors, official numbers are talking $950mil.


    as for FCS it is not supposed to chase subs in oceans unlike 20386. FCS is much faster (47kts) and has water jets so its quieter.
    Surface water jets are not quiet.


    Regarding the partial IEP here is the image from earlier in the thread (post 42)

    Personally I don't entirely understand the big deal being made of IEP recently, its not like Diesel-Electric & Turbo-Electric hasn't existed since ~'30s...
    Having the gas turbines directly connected in 20386 does mean it'll be less quiet than fully mechanically independent setup.

    Regarding 2 helicopters this is the multi-mission bay render (also post 42)

    People have suggested a 2nd chopper could be stored in the mission bay but the door isn't tall enough.
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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:53 am

    hoom wrote:
    ekhm FFX costs according to wiki ~100mlns not 450 Smile
    Your numbers are bad.
    LCS costs $450mil -> same cost 20386 would be a bargain.
    FFX is that plus actually useful weapons/sensors, official numbers are talking $950mil.

    FFX not sure about source of your numbers but as for FCS so Russian navy now needs overpriced ASW ships with moderate ASW a ilities? !!!


    hoom wrote:
    Regarding 2 helicopters this is the multi-mission bay render (also post 42)

    People have suggested a 2nd chopper could be stored in the mission bay but the door isn't tall enough.

    It is but still not enough place for second helo. Isnt it 20ft containers bay? so still point is this is not ASW ship better then 20380. For double price? Ah yes licensed copy S-100 UAV can be carried eventually too.

    Frankly? I am not a big fan of expensive ship with no better capabilities for actually anything than predecessors.

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  Peŕrier on Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:00 pm

    More than a second helicopter, I think a permanent provision for a couple of S-100 UAVs, or anything similar, wiuld be ideal for such kind of ship.

    Two medium helicopters are a little too much for a vessel of such size, unless the hull is designed with that as the primary requirement.

    But historically soviet and russian ships never deployed more than a single helicopters in hulls under the 6000 tonnes mark, so I believe it is a specific requirement to have just one onboard of the 20386s as well.

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    Re: Project 20836 Derzkii-class Corvette/Frigate

    Post  hoom on Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:32 pm

    It is but still not enough place for second helo. Isnt it 20ft containers bay? so still point is this is not ASW ship better then 20380. For double price? Ah yes licensed copy S-100 UAV can be carried eventually too.

    Frankly? I am not a big fan of expensive ship with no better capabilities for actually anything than predecessors.
    I think you misunderstood, I'm saying there is no 2nd helo, the door (at least as rendered there) is too short to move a big chopper through.

    No better capabilities? A brand new multi-frequency AESA setup, extra SAMs, Kalibr capability, faster top speed, better endurance & multi-mission bay don't count as better capabilities? Suspect
    Edit: think of 20386 as a GP frigate rather than an ASW corvette.


    Last edited by hoom on Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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