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    Project 20836 Corvette

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    zg18
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    Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  zg18 on Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:48 pm

    Okay, first ship of series Project 20836 "Derzkiy" (bold, daring - eng.) will be laid down on Oct. 28 



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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:10 pm


    They are really building 20836? Awesome!!! thumbsup russia

    And I'm lovin' the name. I think closer translation would be arrogant/petulant which is even cooler.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:54 pm

    zg18 wrote:Okay, first ship of series Project 20836 "Derzkiy" (bold, daring - eng.) will be laid down on Oct. 28 



    What the hell, granted it looks good, but where's the Paket, Kashtan, are those UKSKs or Shtil vls and what's behind the AK-630s an APS??

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  zg18 on Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:09 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    zg18 wrote:Okay, first ship of series Project 20836 "Derzkiy" (bold, daring - eng.) will be laid down on Oct. 28 



    What the hell, granted it looks good, but where's the Paket, Kashtan, are those UKSKs or Shtil vls and what's behind the AK-630s an APS??

    This class of vessels are built with modular approach in mind, each ship will be equipped & armed in accordance with mission, and role of missions/tasks can change.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:16 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    zg18 wrote:Okay, first ship of series Project 20836 "Derzkiy" (bold, daring - eng.) will be laid down on Oct. 28 

    .....

    What the hell, granted it looks good, but where's the Paket, Kashtan, are those UKSKs or Shtil vls and what's behind the AK-630s an APS??

    This is image of export version. RU Navy will be getting full variant but they still haven't shown it. But it will definitely be jacked.

    Remember Karakurts? Original images were also for export version and they had Gibka SAMs. But RN version ended up having naval Pantsir instead.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:54 am

    They don't even have the 20380 series done yet though is that really wise. (some would argue the 20380 are wastes of money doesn't it just require the redoubt missiles?)

    Well more Light Frigates for the Russian Navy I guess.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  Ned86 on Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:25 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:They don't even have the 20380 series done yet though is that really wise. (some would argue the 20380 are wastes of money doesn't it just require the redoubt missiles?)
    Project 20380 "corvettes" are well underestimated ships. I purposely say "corvettes", because they are in fact light frigates by its fire power, just called corvette for political reasons.
    They have powerful anti-aircraft missiles system installed (for example better than Udaloy class, which is consider as Destroyer), as well as Uran missile system which is equivalent to the NATO Harpoon missile, being installed on most NATO ships as main anti-ship weapons.
    Also they have powerful anti-submarine capability too, with PAKET system installed.

    If you compare Project 20380 ships with for example French La Fayette class frigates, you gonna see that Project 20380 is much better ship, because La Fayette miss anti-aircraft missile systems and anti submarine weapons. Still La Fayette is consider modern frigate.

    They build 5 of them by now with another 5 being built plus 2 more Project 20385 with Kalibr missile systems. As far as I remember they originally planed 12 of these ships.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:48 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:They don't even have the 20380 series done yet though is that really wise. (some would argue the 20380 are wastes of money doesn't it just require the redoubt missiles?)

    Well more Light Frigates for the Russian Navy I guess.

    20380 was taking forever. Ukrainian engine cock up and their propensity for self combustion was final nail in the coffin. Once local engines finally became available it simply made more sense to start fresh.

    There was no benefit to sticking with 20380. In all this time production speed was not improving and technology moved on. And those ships were not up to standard to begin with (short range and endurance).

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:22 pm

    Ned86 wrote:Still La Fayette is consider modern frigate.

    Nope. Lafayette was always a badly implemented ''concept ship'' which was dumped on low numbers on the MN just to gain some street cred.
    Sadly for it only some select few Gulf ''navies'' bought it. It was/is a complete failure, waste of tonnage just like RN's batch 2 River class or DM's F125. On the flip side they were all nice jobs programs (aka waste of public money).

    Now what Russia seems to be doing is start small since the early 2010's, build powerful specialised FACs and corvettes in the 500- 2,000+ t range (+sensors suites, engines ans systems) and within a few decades (or less) they will be good to go with frigates (> 3,000 t) and even light destroyers (> 4,500 t).

    The Russian approach seems to have stricken a better balance between ''jobs program'' side and firepower/operational utility. Better than the Brits, Germans and the French. Still decades behind the US and China in terms of industrial capacity and ability.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  wilhelm on Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:22 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Ned86 wrote:Still La Fayette is consider modern frigate.

    Nope. Lafayette was always a badly implemented ''concept ship'' which was dumped on low numbers on the MN just to gain some street cred.
    Sadly for it only some select few Gulf ''navies'' bought it. It was/is a complete failure, waste of tonnage just like RN's batch 2 River class or DM's F125. On the flip side they were all nice jobs programs (aka waste of public money).

    Nope.

    First of all, Singapore and Taiwan both operate variants of the La Fayette Class, as does France. None of these are "Gulf navies".
    20 vessels commissioned over a 13 year period, with 15 exported new build vessels is not a "complete failure" or a "waste of tonnage", and a "waste of public money" by anybodies definition.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:25 am

    zg18 wrote:Okay, first ship of series Project 20836 "Derzkiy" (bold, daring - eng.) will be laid down on Oct. 28 



    Guys there's something else bothering me about this ship, whats with the lack of radar, or are they built into the ship, like that triangular angled front looking like it's a radar?

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  hoom on Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:24 am

    Yes, the radars are the squares built into the corners of the superstructure a-la Burkes.
    Presumably is the same set that's supposed to be going on 20385.

    I'm in the 'but why?' crowd on this.
    It doesn't seem to bring anything that 20380/20385 don't bring, has some quite odd design choices.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Oct 25, 2016 11:41 am

    hoom wrote:Yes, the radars are the squares built into the corners of the superstructure a-la Burkes.
    Presumably is the same set that's supposed to be going on 20385.

    I'm in the 'but why?' crowd on this.
    It doesn't seem to bring anything that 20380/20385 don't bring, has some quite odd design choices.

    Right off the bat I would say low radar signature because only thing that matters in war is stealth according to modern western naval doctrine.  Cool

    But seriously, 20385 was created because 20380 design was found to be lacking and, like I said already, production speeds were disastrous and not improving even decade later. Range and endurance would be advantage of new design like it was with 20385 over 20380.

    But there is a point when upgrading is no longer feasible and starting fresh makes more sense.

    Also, we still don't know exact size of this thing but most likely it is slightly bigger than 20380 which brings us to internal arrangement. There are pics around and it is very different to old ones.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  Luq man on Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:24 pm

    Project 20386.

    Detailed Pictures from Naval Analyses #twitter:





    Also extensive information in this article:
    https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2016/07/01/project-20386-small-patrol-ships-corvettes/

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:19 pm

    hoom wrote:Yes, the radars are the squares built into the corners of the superstructure a-la Burkes.
    Presumably is the same set that's supposed to be going on 20385.

    I'm in the 'but why?' crowd on this.
    It doesn't seem to bring anything that 20380/20385 don't bring, has some quite odd design choices.

    From the photos:

    1. It has a lower radar signature (as Papadragon said)
    2. It has better internal arrangements (as the dragon said as well)
    3. It has everything that 20380 has plus Kalibr
    4. It has better speed boat launching abilities (for special operations)
    5. It has newer generation radar and other electronics
    6. It is probably easier to build
    7. It looks less top heavy (with helicopter and other heavy stuff like torpedoes moved lower), hence better seaworthiness

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  wilhelm on Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:33 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    wilhelm wrote:First of all, Singapore and Taiwan both operate variants of the La Fayette Class, as does France. None of these are "Gulf navies

    Nope.

    Formidable =/= La Fayette
    Derivative =/= Variant

    welcome

    Apart a few odd vessels in France, Saudi (even those were quite different) and ROC (most similar hull)  the whole project was a failure. Naked vessels wasting tonnage as I said. A fancy, overpriced 80s design that lead nowhere and died in the early 00s. Sold badly too.

    "Sold badly", eh?
    Come now KG, so you made a post that was a bit silly, and instead of just taking it on the chin, you dig a deeper hole? dunno
    Give us a list of classes over 3500 tons since the first La Fayette (note, it is TWO words, the La being a prefix) that has been exported more as a first build, not a 20 to 30 year old hand me down?
    I can't think of many, but I'm sure you can......?

    EDIT: Off topic, so no point in continuing.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  KiloGolf on Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:10 pm

    wilhelm wrote:"Sold badly", eh?
    Come now KG, so you made a post that was a bit silly, and instead of just taking it on the chin, you dig a deeper hole? dunno
    Give us a list of classes over 3500 tons since the first La Fayette (note, it is TWO words, the La being a prefix) that has been exported more as a first build, not a 20 to 30 year old hand me down?
    I can't think of many, but I'm sure you can......?

    EDIT: Off topic, so no point in continuing.

    Not quite. I'm afraid what I said before still stands.

    Confusing UAE getting one in the Gulf, instead of just KSA is not the point. The numbers are low and the record is poor. The Formidable is hardly an evolved variant and more like a completely different ship, a derivative. The MEKO 200 class was a way better export-oriented design, better equipped, priced and was exported well enough, without having to be dumped on the German taxpayer.

    The La Fayette is a prime example of jobs program, naked ship, tonnage waste. Utter overpriced, gimmickry.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:50 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    hoom wrote:Yes, the radars are the squares built into the corners of the superstructure a-la Burkes.
    Presumably is the same set that's supposed to be going on 20385.

    I'm in the 'but why?' crowd on this.
    It doesn't seem to bring anything that 20380/20385 don't bring, has some quite odd design choices.

    From the photos:

    1. It has a lower radar signature (as Papadragon said)
    2. It has better internal arrangements (as the dragon said as well)
    3. It has everything that 20380 has plus Kalibr
    4. It has better speed boat launching abilities (for special operations)
    5. It has newer generation radar and other electronics
    6. It is probably easier to build
    7. It looks less top heavy (with helicopter and other heavy stuff like torpedoes moved lower), hence better seaworthiness

    1) but no 8xKh35 and 8 Kalibrs? or I am wrong?

    2) why but why again 100mm if Russia  already is using 76mm and 57mm on light ships?

    3) so no navalized Pantsir foreseen?

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:22 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:...............
    1) but no 8xKh35 and 8 Kalibrs? or I am wrong?

    We don't know. This ''hole'' for AShMs is pretty deep, they could perhaps fit UKSK there or maybe put Redut there and install UKSK in the front:



    GunshipDemocracy wrote:2) why but why again 100mm if Russia  already is using 76mm and 57mm on light ships?

    100mm is overkill for this class. It also takes a lot of weight.

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:3) so no navalized Pantsir foreseen?

    Again, we don't know but twin Palash should be enough.

    This image is for export version.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:05 pm

    Look carefully. Project 20386 has:

    .Redut up-front (in front of gun)
    .Kh-35 amid ship
    .Kalibr containers in the rear


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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  Isos on Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:16 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Look carefully. Project 20386 has:

    .Redut up-front (in front of gun)
    .Kh-35 amid ship
    .Kalibr containers in the rear


    Kalibr instead of the helicopter. The two container in one the picture are Kalibr container but smaller ones I think.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:18 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:Look carefully. Project 20386 has:

    .Redut up-front (in front of gun)
    .Kh-35 amid ship
    .Kalibr containers in the rear


    I know that. But not having UKSK launchers on ships being built today is frankly idiotic. 20830 was ditched in part because of that. And I still think that ship that will be laid down will have totally different armament than one in the picture.

    When you launch missile from container you first have to open deck hatches, erect launcher from container, open launcher covers and then launch. Idiotic waste of time when in modern naval combat every second counts. And UKSK carries 8 missiles, cargo container only 4. Also, since it shares space with helicopter, readiness is reduced even further.

    Launching from containers makes sense for LACMs because time is less of an issue, but not for AShMs.

    Only way setup with Kh-35 would make sense is if Navy expects to develop supersonic version of that missile (range of Uran is still half that of Onix) or if primary purpose of this class is anti-sub warfare (which defeats the whole point of investing in ''multirole vessel'').

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:30 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:Look carefully. Project 20386 has:

    .Redut up-front (in front of gun)
    .Kh-35 amid ship
    .Kalibr containers in the rear


    I know that. But not having UKSK launchers on ships being built today is frankly idiotic. 20830 was ditched in part because of that. And I still think that ship that will be laid down will have totally different armament than one in the picture.

    When you launch missile from container you first have to open deck hatches, erect launcher from container, open launcher covers and then launch. Idiotic waste of time when in modern naval combat every second counts. And UKSK carries 8 missiles, cargo container only 4. Also, since it shares space with helicopter, readiness is reduced even further.

    Launching from containers makes sense for LACMs because time is less of an issue, but not for AShMs.

    Only way setup with Kh-35 would make sense is if Navy expects to develop supersonic version of that missile (range of Uran is still half that of Onix) or if primary purpose of this class is anti-sub warfare (which defeats the whole point of investing in ''multirole vessel'').

    Indeed,
    Project 20380 corvettes (small frigates really) are multipurpose ships with an emphasis on anti-submarine warfare (helicopter + Packet + large sonar).
    Project 20385 version has an emphasis on anti-ship warfare. That is done by replacing the Kh-35 launchers with Onyx carrying UKSKs. They are intended for the North Sea Fleet.
    Project 20386 goes back to anti-submarine emphasis but adds land-attack capability with Kalibr.

    Nothing wrong with having multipurpose design, especially if you are operating on a tight budget. It is also quite possible that you are right and the 20386 will end up having UKSKs instead of Kh-35.

    The Kh-35 is no slouch, the range of the latest version is 270 km. Quite sufficient for the Baltic. Note that the coastal batteries are still acquiring the Kh-35 based BAL system together with the Onyx based BASTION system.

    The main ship killers of the Baltic Fleet will be the Karakurt class boats and the Buyans (two of which are sailing there as we speak).






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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  AlfaT8 on Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:10 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    TheArmenian wrote:Look carefully. Project 20386 has:

    .Redut up-front (in front of gun)
    .Kh-35 amid ship
    .Kalibr containers in the rear


    I know that. But not having UKSK launchers on ships being built today is frankly idiotic. 20830 was ditched in part because of that. And I still think that ship that will be laid down will have totally different armament than one in the picture.

    When you launch missile from container you first have to open deck hatches, erect launcher from container, open launcher covers and then launch. Idiotic waste of time when in modern naval combat every second counts. And UKSK carries 8 missiles, cargo container only 4. Also, since it shares space with helicopter, readiness is reduced even further.

    Launching from containers makes sense for LACMs because time is less of an issue, but not for AShMs.

    Only way setup with Kh-35 would make sense is if Navy expects to develop supersonic version of that missile (range of Uran is still half that of Onix) or if primary purpose of this class is anti-sub warfare (which defeats the whole point of investing in ''multirole vessel'').

    Indeed,
    Project 20380 corvettes (small frigates really) are multipurpose ships with an emphasis on anti-submarine warfare (helicopter + Packet + large sonar).
    Project 20385 version has an emphasis on anti-ship warfare. That is done by replacing the Kh-35 launchers with Onyx carrying UKSKs. They are intended for the North Sea Fleet.
    Project 20386 goes back to anti-submarine emphasis but adds land-attack capability with Kalibr.

    Nothing wrong with having multipurpose design, especially if you are operating on a tight budget. It is also quite possible that you are right and the 20386 will end up having UKSKs instead of Kh-35.

    The Kh-35 is no slouch, the range of the latest version is 270 km. Quite sufficient for the Baltic. Note that the coastal batteries are still acquiring the Kh-35 based BAL system together with the Onyx based BASTION system.

    The main ship killers of the Baltic Fleet will be the Karakurt class boats and the Buyans (two of which are sailing there as we speak).

    I am gonna have to go with PD on this one, the entire point of the current naval modernization program is "multirole" vessels and the UKSK is the fundamental cornerstone of the entire thing, to create a ship of this class without it is simply unacceptable, hopefully this won't be the case for domestic vessels.

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    Re: Project 20836 Corvette

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    2) why but why again 100mm if Russia  already is using 76mm and 57mm on light ships?

    100mm guns offer far more in terms of range and effect on target and are useful against a much wider range of targets than any 76mm gun.

    In terms of ammo you can have a much wider variety of rounds for the larger calibre... including EMP rounds and guided rounds and air burst rounds to defeat incoming Anti ship missiles and other threats.

    An EMP round would be a useful way of dealing with a large number of incoming subsonic anti ship missiles for instance.

    Never heard about EMP round but rate of fire is for 76mm  - 130 and for 100mm 80. For CIWS role IMHO better is 76mm. Besides 3 calibers isnt best solution for logistics I presume.



    [quote="PapaDragon"]
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:...............
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:2) why but why again 100mm if Russia  already is using 76mm and 57mm on light ships?

    100mm is overkill for this class. It also takes a lot of weight.

    fully agree with this


    PapaDragon wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:3) so no navalized Pantsir foreseen?

    Again, we don't know but twin Palash should be enough.

    This image is for export version.

    Well if this is true that new Pantisr is gonna have 40km range then redut launcher for small ships makes not much sense to me.
    I do not think Palash will be used anymore once Pantsir enters production.



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