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    Syrian Civil War: News #10

    KoTeMoRe
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    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 14 Empty Re: Syrian Civil War: News #10

    Post  KoTeMoRe Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:36 am

    https://twitter.com/IvanSidorenko1/status/799148794558480385


    Yes it's exactly that.
    calm
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    Post  calm Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:00 pm

    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 14 CxbDnxJWgAAsygZ
    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 14 CxEj_iFXEAAJFqq
    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 14 Syr
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:05 pm

    https://sofrep.com/67808/three-green-berets-killed-isis-infiltrator-cia-ignored-warnings/


    This is the kind of guys that call out Russia about dubious ties.
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    Post  KiloGolf Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:25 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Here you go again embarrassing yourself with stupidity, please, do explain to me why you want to fire $80k Javelin missiles at Toyota pickups that cost $20-40k.....

    Or more accurately why fire an $80K Javelin missile when you can do the same job with an $8K Metis-M... or old surplus Konkurs...


    The cost of a deployed, trained and experienced SOF operator, officer or advisor is much higher than a Javelin (or two).
    Javelin is a good insurance policy for whoever can field it. Metis or Konkurs cannot do the same job.
    KoTeMoRe
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    Post  KoTeMoRe Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:48 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Here you go again embarrassing yourself with stupidity, please, do explain to me why you want to fire $80k Javelin missiles at Toyota pickups that cost $20-40k.....

    Or more accurately why fire an $80K Javelin missile when you can do the same job with an $8K Metis-M... or old surplus Konkurs...


    The cost of a deployed, trained and experienced SOF operator, officer or advisor is much higher than a Javelin (or two).
    Javelin is a good insurance policy for whoever can field it. Metis or Konkurs cannot do the same job.

    Agan Javelin is not foolproof and really shines at that kind of situation when the FF mode just takes out the human factor of the equation. But as I said we've seen how when these things hit they simply don't wait for you to have a lock on the target or allow you to be in a safe position.

    That svbied the French smacked would have been folded equally by normal defensive preparations. Defensive charges would have done the same thing on that stuff vehicle, a kill alley made out of mines would have done the same. Without needed to use Half the GDP of Vanuatu for a company attacking the position.
    calm
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    Post  calm Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:59 pm

    JohninMK wrote:Not seen this map maker before

    I'm posting Tuto maps for months. Laughing

    https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1OSttyvbGKqntDjF8Q0vfHCHUZo4&hl=en_US&ll=36.293069304886984%2C42.76772060869985&z=9
    https://twitter.com/Tutomap
    higurashihougi
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    Post  higurashihougi Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:42 pm

    So the US Secretary of State is sooo out of manpower, that she has to appointed an uneducated men as her spokeman ?
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    Post  KiloGolf Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:03 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Here you go again embarrassing yourself with stupidity, please, do explain to me why you want to fire $80k Javelin missiles at Toyota pickups that cost $20-40k.....

    Or more accurately why fire an $80K Javelin missile when you can do the same job with an $8K Metis-M... or old surplus Konkurs...


    The cost of a deployed, trained and experienced SOF operator, officer or advisor is much higher than a Javelin (or two).
    Javelin is a good insurance policy for whoever can field it. Metis or Konkurs cannot do the same job.

    Agan Javelin is not foolproof and really shines at that kind of situation when the FF mode just takes out the human factor of the equation. But as I said we've seen how when these things hit they simply don't wait for you to have a lock on the target or allow you to be in a safe position.

    That svbied the French smacked would have been folded equally by normal defensive preparations. Defensive charges would have done the same thing on that stuff vehicle, a kill alley made out of mines would have done the same. Without needed to use Half the GDP of Vanuatu for a company attacking the position.

    Hence the term insurance policy. Same way the French employed it, MILAN missed, Javelin finished it. The expensive operators are still alive.
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    Post  par far Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:45 pm

    calm wrote:Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 14 CxbDnxJWgAAsygZ
    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 14 CxEj_iFXEAAJFqq
    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 14 Syr


    It is because of things like this, that the US has become a joke and why nobody takes it seriously.


    "SYRIAN WAR REPORT – NOVEMBER 17, 2016: AL-NUSRA COMMAND STAFF SUFFERS FROM RUSSIAN AIR STRIKES".

    https://southfront.org/syrian-war-report-november-17-2016-al-nusra-comman-staff-suffers-from-russian-air-strikes/


    The Su 33's are in action.


    "HEAD OF HEZBOLLAH LEADER’S BODYGUARD TEAM SPOTTED IN ALEPPO CITY(with picture)."

    This means that high ranking Hezbollah(god bless them), are in Aleppo and a major offensive is under way.

    https://southfront.org/head-of-hezbollah-leaders-bodyguard-team-spotted-in-aleppo-city/




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    Post  JohninMK Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:35 am

    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 14 Cxf9vAVXgAEEv6Y
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:36 am

    Geolocation of hit objects

    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 14 CxgOjWOWIAE3vKE
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    Post  GarryB Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:54 am

    The cost of a deployed, trained and experienced SOF operator, officer or advisor is much higher than a Javelin (or two).
    Javelin is a good insurance policy for whoever can field it. Metis or Konkurs cannot do the same job.

    I would normally agree, but the cost of a Javelin is higher than the cost of a Kornet and the Kornet has an autotracker that means its performance in terms of hitting erratic targets would likely be better than Javelin.

    In the current models of Kornet you get 5 times the range, a much more powerful warhead and much faster missile, that is cheap enough to use in large numbers against all sorts of targets.

    A moving car could be hit in fire and forget mode but most other targets would require manual guidance... in which case the Metis and Konkurs have better performance in terms of penetration and range.

    Hence the term insurance policy. Same way the French employed it, MILAN missed, Javelin finished it. The expensive operators are still alive.

    For the price of one Javelin they could have fired ten Milan missiles.

    I am surprised Milan missed... would be interesting to find out more about what actually happened...

    Kornet uses an autotracker and would also have hit the target too... still cheaper than Javelin.

    Of course missiles can miss and when the target is not as straight forward as a car in motion the Javelin is actually inferior to Metis-M1.
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    Post  Mindstorm Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:53 am

    If any this engagement just confirm all what said previously about FGM-148.

    It is a very short range ATGM with a truly enormous preparation time ; it is not by chance that the javelin has been merely delivered after that the MILAN had completed its entire engagement.

    Very likely that MILAN ATGM has been prepared and rush-fired while the FGM-148 operator was still in the wait for acquire and lock the target with its CLU, in the fear that the VBIED would have came too close to save the squad from the explosion.

    Obviously at the engagement range ......and even more the times.....of this engagement this infantry squad would have been liquidated even by a single modern APC, for not say something like an BMP-3 that could destroy several of those infantry squads safely from 2-3 km outside their maximum engagement range.


    As last note i repeat one more time that FGM-148 ,above all its more modern iterations, cost today in the region of 200000 USD for missile (excluded CLU and ancillary costs). 80000 dollars was the cost of its first version more than 12 years ago.

    Its enormous cost and the complex and time-consuming requirements for the construction of its optical components limit the number of missile constructed and acquired even by US Army.                


    http://www.bga-aeroweb.com/Defense/Budget-Data/FY2015/JAVELIN-USMC-PROC-FY2015.pdf


    It is very difficult to image a weapon system worsely conceived.
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:16 am

    Mindstorm wrote:If any this engagement just confirm all what said previously about FGM-148.

    It is very difficult to image a weapon system worsely conceived.
    Probably spot on the real objective, upgrades with maximum profit.

    The US Military seems to excel at profit creation for those companies that subsequently employ just retired senior officers. No doubt this is overly cynical and a shear co-incidence.
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    Post  KiloGolf Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:35 pm

    It's amazing to witness the prudent use of a very capable, one of a kind ATGM that saved some important lives on-camera and yet there's always people dismissing the result and doctrine. One or more SOF operators are worth many times more than the missile and system combined. This whole bean counting doesn't always work in war.

    There's a lesson learnt from the French video, expensive, fire and forget ATGMs have their niche position in today's asymmetric wars. Carefully fielding them in areas where embedded personnel are located is smart. Russians should take notes, given their recent experience in Raqqa against SVBIEDs.
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    Post  JohninMK Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:21 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:It's amazing to witness the prudent use of a very capable, one of a kind ATGM that saved some important lives on-camera and yet there's always people dismissing the result and doctrine. One or more SOF operators are worth many times more than the missile and system combined. This whole bean counting doesn't always work in war.
    Plus, once it is in the military supply chain the purchase price becomes irrelevant as it is just a device to be used. Then, later on, its often the case of firing what is available, what it is sometimes just a game of chance.
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    Post  Regular Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:35 pm

    I'm sure Russia can develop better Javelin analogue
    Jav video reminded me of this

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:31 pm

    Defense Ministry: media reporting on "bombed" hospitals in Syria are sponsored by Britain


    http://vz.ru/news/2016/11/18/844600.html



    UK is sponsoring "independent Syrian media", which then report on the alleged Russian space forces bombed hospitals, said the official representative of the defense Ministry major General Igor Konashenkov, based on data from the official report of the British government.

    When allegations of "bombed" hospitals and mobile clinics in Syria, Western politicians refer not to reliable information, and on the White helmets or the local anonymous "journalists" ("activists"), said Konashenkov, reports TASS.


    "In this regard drew the attention of the official report of the British government "non-humanitarian aid the UK in Syria in 2012-2015". The document explicitly States that "White helmets" received from the British government of 15 million pounds. But another 5.3 million pounds received some "media", – said Konashenkov.
    The official representative of the Russian Ministry noted that the document also stated: "UK-Funded projects aimed at creation of a network of independent media outlets across Syria. Their job is to report to Facebook and Twitter about the chemical attacks of the regime forces in ghouta, and promptly to supply information from local residents and the "White helmets".

    "In Russia, this is called: "the cuckoo rooster praises for what he praises the cuckoo." But Admiral John Kirby (state Department spokesman), it seems, does not know about this", he said.

    Earlier Konashenkov also said that speculation Kirby about "bombing hospitals" in Syria are information error.

    On Wednesday, Kirby said that the US state Department has no evidence of alleged Russian attacks on military targets in Syria, the Agency simply accepts on faith the statements of certain "humanitarian organizations".

    Tuesday Konashenkov denied approval of the media about the alleged bombing "for the third day of the hospital" in Aleppo. He also recalled that the aircraft of Russian air force and Syrian air force for 28 days did not cause any strikes on Aleppo.

    The U.S. state Department spokesman Elizabeth Trudeau during the media briefing said that the latest data supposedly indicate beats Russia in five hospitals and one mobile hospital.

    Konashenkov said in response that the state Department is probably already "tired of lying", but continues to repeat the rumors about the "bombed hospitals" in Syria, and called such accusations "shameless lie."
    -
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    Post  OminousSpudd Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:07 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:It's amazing to witness the prudent use of a very capable, one of a kind ATGM that saved some important lives on-camera and yet there's always people dismissing the result and doctrine. One or more SOF operators are worth many times more than the missile and system combined. This whole bean counting doesn't always work in war.

    There's a lesson learnt from the French video, expensive, fire and forget ATGMs have their niche position in today's asymmetric wars. Carefully fielding them in areas where embedded personnel are located is smart. Russians should take notes, given their recent experience in Raqqa against SVBIEDs.
    Development and production costs outweigh the benefits. You're not applying basic economic principles to the system. How many of these videos exist showing a successful use of a Javelin against its specifically designed for targets? Namely being armour?
    Is it effective with SOF? Of course, just like the majority of weapons on the planet are effective with SOF.

    To make the production of the system worthwhile a certain amount have to be produced, to justify this there has to be demand, now, SOF on their own aren't going to fork that bill, so you then must turn to the primary branches, problem is, the Army & Marines don't have the specialised training to operate the system effectively in the first place so now you have a bunch of grunts firing off your stockpile of expensive missiles at the walls of buildings. It's nice in theory Kilo, but the system has been around for a good chunk of the 21st century... and the Russians haven't taken notes, because they have better, cheaper systems that do the same job.

    This isn't even going into the fact that the missile is well documented as not performing how it should.
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    Post  KiloGolf Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:28 pm

    OminousSpudd wrote:Development and production costs outweigh the benefits. You're not applying basic economic principles to the system. How many of these videos exist showing a successful use of a Javelin against its specifically designed for targets? Namely being armour?
    Is it effective with SOF? Of course, just like the majority of weapons on the planet are effective with SOF.

    To make the production of the system worthwhile a certain amount have to be produced, to justify this there has to be demand, now, SOF on their own aren't going to fork that bill, so you then must turn to the primary branches, problem is, the Army & Marines don't have the specialised training to operate the system effectively in the first place so now you have a bunch of grunts firing off your stockpile of expensive missiles at the walls of buildings. It's nice in theory Kilo, but the system has been around for a good chunk of the 21st century... and the Russians haven't taken notes, because they have better, cheaper systems that do the same job.

    This isn't even going into the fact that the missile is well documented as not performing how it should.

    They can fit in a niche. SOF, Marines and Paras are pretty good niche. Same as French SOF advisers in Syria. Concerning development, there's always pioneers and followers. Sure it costs to be the first in the league, or better be on a league of your own. Sometimes (like in the video) it's totally worth it.
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    Post  VladimirSahin Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:48 pm

    Javelins show their worth, it's weird how the Milan missed though...
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    Post  calm Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:24 pm

    MAP | #IDLIB | THE FORGOTTEN FU'AH AND KAFRAYA POCKET - Besieged since March 2015, shia pocket is hold by pro-#Assad local militias.
    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 14 CxkrSHAUQAA3BZe
    note that Binnish - Fu'ah frontline is one of most entrenched since... 4 years, surpassing by time most of #WWI trenches battles...
    There it is, and they are so close to each other..
    Syrian Civil War: News #10 - Page 14 CxksvoeXUAEfeDw
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    Post  d_taddei2 Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:46 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Hence the term insurance policy. Same way the French employed it, MILAN missed, Javelin finished it. The expensive operators are still alive.

    I am surprised Milan missed... would be interesting to find out more about what actually happened...

    Of course missiles can miss and when the target is not as straight forward as a car in motion the Javelin is actually inferior to Metis-M1.

    the battalion i was in had Milan and the anti tank platoon had numerous problems from misfires, missiles going off at a tangent, misses etc when we were in Jordan, so maybe the Syrian terrain has something to do with misses etc. But no system is 100%


    Last edited by d_taddei2 on Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  par far Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:46 pm

    "SYRIAN ARMY KILLS SEVERAL DOZENS OF ISIS TERRORISTS IN DEIR EZ-ZOR."


    https://southfront.org/syrian-army-kills-several-dozens-of-isis-terrorists-in-deir-ez-zor/


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    Post  KiloGolf Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:24 pm

    par far wrote:"SYRIAN ARMY KILLS SEVERAL DOZENS OF ISIS TERRORISTS IN DEIR EZ-ZOR."


    https://southfront.org/syrian-army-kills-several-dozens-of-isis-terrorists-in-deir-ez-zor/

    We badly need some journalist with balls of steel to cover that front, or better enclave. I've seen tweets about locals being forced into starvation and pics of huge numbers of IS goons dying on a weekly basis.

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