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    Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  TheArmenian on Thu Feb 23, 2012 8:34 am

    What is the sniper rifle Rogozin is Shooting?

    http://www.izhmash.ru/pix/news/rogozin2.jpg
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    GarryB

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    sniper rifles

    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:25 am

    I would say as it is Izmash that the sniper rifle is the folding stock version of the SV-98.. shown here:



    But it could be an SV-338M which also has a similar folding stock as shown below:



    Actually the small oval shape on the magazine area present in the original photo and also on the above photos of the SV-338M and SV-338M1 suggest it is likely one of these rifles, though of course it could be the SV-338M2 that he is testing... if such a rifle exists. It is like the old story about the Queen of England thinking the world smells of fresh paint because everywhere she goes there is always someone 20m ahead of her painting everything... Smile

    I am sure for Rogazins visit they would get out the best silverware too...
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    Mr.Kalishnikov47

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Mon May 07, 2012 10:53 am

    http://gunsandtactics.com/orsis-high-precision-hunting-sport-and-tactical-rifles

    I'm sure many of you have already seen this article before. It's mostly just about the unique and highly promising ORSIS T-5000 sniper rifle, but there is one paragraph in particular that really interested me.

    gunsandtactics.com wrote:"But ORSIS’s plans are far beyond the elite firing arms. Its designers are developing advanced semi-automatic rifles and pistols. However, their production will be the next stage of the Promtechnologies Group’s development when it establishes a new factory this year."

    Does this mean that ORSIS could also be developing assault rifles? If so, and if they're of the same quality as their T-500, I could see them being a real competitor in the near future.

    Of course it does say semi automatic, which likely means they're aiming their designs more towards the civilian market, but it is something to consider nonetheless.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 08, 2012 9:22 am

    They are a very small company, and I would expect their market will be for small customers... at least initially.

    Producing small batches of sniper rifles for a special forces unit is one thing, but equipping an entire army with a standard arm would likely be beyond their capacity.

    Of course if they plan to make assault rifle type weapons I am sure they will be quality items, but I doubt they would have the capacity to handle very large orders, and I suspect they might just make a living selling to the civilian market.
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    Mr.Kalishnikov47

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Tue May 08, 2012 9:55 am

    GarryB wrote:They are a very small company, and I would expect their market will be for small customers... at least initially.

    Producing small batches of sniper rifles for a special forces unit is one thing, but equipping an entire army with a standard arm would likely be beyond their capacity.

    Of course if they plan to make assault rifle type weapons I am sure they will be quality items, but I doubt they would have the capacity to handle very large orders, and I suspect they might just make a living selling to the civilian market.

    I wasn't really thinking about the army as much as FSB/MVD, and possibly a few special units of the VDV.
    ORSIS will be expanding to a second facility this year, which will hopefully increase their manufacturing capabilities.

    Actually shortly after I posted that last post I realized that they were most likely speaking of a semi automatic sniper rifle, so I guess it doesn't really mean anything in terms of assault rifles, although another new sniper from them would be very interesting.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 08, 2012 10:29 am

    Certainly the development of a designated marksman rifle or genuine semi auto sniper rifle might be a very useful development, they seem to be a fairly innovative company with good products so it will be interesting to see what they develop and how it is received.

    From the wording of the piece you quoted, I think perhaps the move is away from elite specialist weapons, which could suggest a shift to standard small arms or perhaps a shift to civilian weapons.

    In Russia the market for firearms is largely military and government/police, while the civilian market is tiny.

    In comparison in the US the civilian market is much bigger than the military/government market.

    I rather suspect this new factory signals a shift from custom made almost hand made weapons, to larger scale production for revenue purposes. Larger scale production will reduce the quality but make earning a living easier.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  TheArmenian on Wed May 09, 2012 11:17 am

    GarryB wrote:In Russia the market for firearms is largely military and government/police, while the civilian market is tiny.

    Garry, you have no idea how big the Russian civilian weapons market is.Civil production currently accounts for about 50% of Izhmash’s output.
    For other manufacturers like Baikal, the civilian percentage is much higher than that.
    Some of that civilian production of course goes for export. But the bread and butter is in the local market.
    By the way, Russians also import civilian firearms, you can find the usual Berettas and Remingtons in Russian gunshops.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 11, 2012 12:12 am

    You are quite right TheArmenian, the situation of Russian weapon makers having their main domestic customers military and government organisations is very cold war and early 1990s.

    Having said that I find it difficult to believe the Russian civilian arms market is anywhere near the size of the US civilian market, are there any figures on the Russian civilian market?
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri May 11, 2012 10:06 am

    I came accross no such figures.
    With a population less than half that of the gun-happy USA, the Russian civilian market is definitly smaller. However, gun ownership in Russia and the ex-Soviet countries is common.

    With vast wild expenses, hunting and sports shooting is wildely practiced in Russia (even duiring Soviet times). Generally speaking, east of the Ural Mountain chain is rifle territory, while west of the Urals is mostly shotgun dominated.

    Russian gun laws are not as relaxed as the USA but not as restrictive a s say Australia. Basically:

    - Pistols and full automatic firearms are prohibited.
    - You can have a maximum of 5 firearms (unless you are registered as a gun collector).
    - One must have posessed a shotgun for 5 years before being allowed to own a rifle.

    Almost no restrictions on action type, pistol grip, folding stock etc.
    Traumatic pistols (e.g. a converted Makarov pistol that shoots rubber bullets)for self protection are allowed and popular.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 11, 2012 11:57 am

    Well I am on the outside looking in, but most of the western perception of Russia has old Mosin rifles as standard for most hunters in Russia with little or no hunting weapons domestically produced for the domestic market.

    Most documentaries on Siberia show old Mosin rifles of the WWII or earlier period as the standard hunting rifle.

    If you say civilian shooting in Russia is huge then I stand corrected... I knew that civilian sport shooting was encouraged like biathlon, and that it was largely hunters and fishermen that formed up some very effective units in the Murmansk area of operations and of course part of the reason Siberian troops were considered effective was because most knew how to handle a rifle and were used to operating in harsh conditions.
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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri May 11, 2012 12:26 pm

    Hahahahaha, the old cliche stereotyping: bearded Russian hunters with Mosins,valenkis, balalaikas and accordeons shooting bears in deep snowy forests and drinking vodka.

    Nothing wrong with hunting with Mosins. However, I have been in many gunshops in Russia and Armenia, Mosins are are rarety. Russians seem to favour semi-autos like the Tigr (Civilian SVD), Saiga (Civilian AK) and Vepr (Civilian RPK).
    On the shotgun side, again semi-autos like Baikal's MP-153 and Molot's Bekas are predominant.
    Pumps are not very popular, but double barrel and combo rifle/shotguns are. Wealthy hunters also go for Italian and German firearms.

    As far as production capacity is concerned. Izhmash is capable of making upto 1 million firearms per year. Currently their annual production is no where near that number, in fact they rarely made that kind of numbers in their history.
    Izhmekh (Baikal) can also make that many as well (including airguns). Their firearms are popular almost everywhere on the planet because of their low price, ruggedness and durability. On a good year they churn up 100,000 airguns. By the way airguns and hunting with airguns is also widely practiced in Russia. Even in the city of Moscow, shooting crows with airguns is immensly popular. Just check on youtube.

    Tula (TOZ), KBP and Vyatsky-Polyanny (Molot) production capacities are much smaller than their Izhevsk based cousins.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 11, 2012 12:45 pm

    Hahahahaha, the old cliche stereotyping: bearded Russian hunters with Mosins,valenkis, balalaikas and accordeons shooting bears in deep snowy forests and drinking vodka.

    Cliches often are created because they are true... 20 years ago the average New Zealand farmer would likely have in one of his sheds a .22 rifle, a shotgun... likely pump action but also occasionally double barrel, and an old 303 rifle with the stock cut down to make it lighter.

    Look there now and those same weapons probably remain because they were simple and cheap and still can do the job with minimal maintainence and minimal fuss.

    There might be a new rifle here and there that a son has bought, but for the most part they are tools used to put down animals, or to put food on the table... you don't need a fancy barreta costing thousands of dollars for that.

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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri May 11, 2012 1:01 pm

    [quote="GarryB"]
    you don't need a fancy barreta costing thousands of dollars for that.

    Couldn't agree with you more.

    Back on topic.
    The SV-1367 was shown at the Sofex-12 show.
    http://razm.info/4904

    Article is in Armenian. The SV-1367 is the Vychlops. Quick translation of the main points:

    Rosoboronoexport representant mentioned that up to 2011 the rifle was not allowed to be exported. Only recently it has been added.

    It is currently in production at KBP in Tula.
    Purpose: dealing with personel wearing body armour and transport vehicles.
    Caliber: 12.7 mm
    Length: 79 cm
    Weight with suppressor: 7 kgs
    Magazine capacity: 5
    Effective range: 600m
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    GarryB

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    sniper rifles

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 12, 2012 1:54 am

    Thanks for that info...

    It also explains why it has been revealed... it is now ready for export.

    BTW I put a link up on this thread a while back for a site with images of rifles from all the countries of the world... this site no longer seems to be working, which is a bit of a shame because it looked like a very good source of photos... especially of prototypes that didn't make it to service.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 26, 2012 3:53 am

    Russia to Produce New Sets of Sniper Gear

    Russia will soon start producing four new sets of sniper equipment, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said on Thursday.

    “We will produce four sets for snipers,” Rogozin, who oversees Russia's defense industry, told reporters in Moscow.

    “The weaponry is going to be a part of a set of equipment, which also includes surveillance and detection tools, means of suppression and passive protection for snipers,” Rogozin said.

    The first set is designed for shooting at ranges of up to 800 meters, the second – for ranges of over 1,500 meters, the third – for snipers in urban police operations, and the fourth – for sniper training.

    The sets are being developed by a special team at the Tochmash Research Institute. The team includes instructors from Russia’s special forces, who oversee the demands for weapons performance.

    The Russian military is planning to deploy by 2016 at least 1,000 snipers to motorized rifle and tank brigades who would be capable of taking down the enemy at a distance of 1-2 kilometers.

    Sharpshooters could also be deployed in the event of mass protests, riots, or an Arab Spring type uprising.

    The next generation of snipers will be recruited from among contract servicemen and undergo long periods of training.

    So the interesting points I would pick out from this... in no particular order:

    Dedicated sniper teams are a part of the new brigade structure and will be in both tank and motor rifle brigades.
    The ranges they are working on are up to 800m which would allow SV-98 in 7.62 x 54mm calibre rifles or perhaps 6 x 49mm rifles be used as the 7.62 x 54mm is accurate to that range and slightly further in the right weapon.
    The range of 1,500m would require a larger calibre weapon, so we are talking about .388LM and 12.7 x 107mm weapons... the former for sniping individuals and the latter for anti material use.

    I would expect semi auto weapons and bolt actions will be developed for all these roles to allow flexibility.

    An upgraded SVD could handle targets out to 800m with good ammo, and the bolt action SV-98 is already effective to that range with a good margin. For the sniper these two rifles would be perfect, while their spotter might carry an AK-12 in 5.45mm for close protection, or perhaps a 6 x 49mm or 7.62 x 54mm calibre larger AK-12 for unit protection with power and accuracy.

    For the 1,500m team I would expect for the sniper that the SV-338 would be a good tool for the job, but the question becomes what sort of sniper weapon would they use for the semi auto in 338LM? Would the SVD design scale up well, or become too heavy? At about 4.5kgs the SVD is one of the lightest 30 cal sniper rifles in service.
    For 12.7 x 107mm weapons there is the semi auto OSV-96, and the bolt action ASVK. For the spotters 5.45mm and 7.62 x 54mm/6x49mm calibre AK-12s would be useful.

    For standard troops these would be standard issue weapons, where on some missions where extreme accuracy is critical then the bolt action rifles can be issued, and in cases where their role is more a support role then the semi auto weapons offer accuracy and firepower.

    For smaller or special purpose teams the huge range of other sniper weapons can be used from the SV-99 in .22lr for urban combat, through the VSS, or VSK-94 in 9 x 39mm, or the VSSK in 12.7 x 55mm calibre, or a range of other weapons including the SVDS and others.

    For a designated marksman the common ammo is handy because shooting to a max range of 600m or so means standard ammo is adequate but for specialist snipers engaging targets at 800m with 7.62 x 54mm then machinegun quality ammo is not good enough so having a different calibre like .338LM is not as big a problem as it might appear.

    Interesting that the sniper teams will get optics detection systems too... obviously critical in the anti sniper role.
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    TR1

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  TR1 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:55 am

    http://twower.livejournal.com/874807.html

    Orsis rifles in gov testing.

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    Mr.Kalishnikov47

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:08 am

    TR1 wrote:http://twower.livejournal.com/874807.html

    Orsis rifles in gov testing.


    Awesome news, thank you. cheers
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    Mr.Kalishnikov47

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    Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:11 am

    Two more photos

    This first one's really interesting.



    This is an upgraded SVDS with a thermal scope.

    The second one's an upgraded SR-3M with that slightly EOTech-ish sight attached to it.



    Last edited by Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:14 am

    Seems they are better than foreign rifles:

    http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&rurl=translate.google.com&tl=en&u=http://www.orsis.com/support/publications/78726/&usg=ALkJrhh3e5boQTyKR24mBDh-5q73SRMbeA

    That was pretty quick... just two years ago Russian sniper rifles were all crap and to have anything decent they needed foreign rifles that resulted in Steyr purchases of sniper rifles.

    Now Russian rifles are winning world competitions.


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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:20 am

    Looks to me like a standard SVDS with folding stock, though it does appear to have rail mounts, I have seen that bipod configuration before and I don't think a free floating barrel is possible with such a gas operated rifle.

    Nice photos though... thanks for posting. Smile


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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:26 am



    Note in this photo a larger calibre SVD which appears to have the scope on the top cover with the old long muzzle flash hider and to the left a couple of SVDS rifles with the shorter muzzle device and bipods.


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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:27 am

    GarryB wrote:Looks to me like a standard SVDS with folding stock, though it does appear to have rail mounts, I have seen that bipod configuration before and I don't think a free floating barrel is possible with such a gas operated rifle.

    Nice photos though... thanks for posting. Smile

    It seems I need to stop using what I read on the Firearm Blog as a good source of information Laughing

    Thanks for the heads up Garry, I'll edit out the misinformation.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:58 am

    I am glad you posted them.

    There are lots of experts of all sorts around the place and none of them are always right in my experience and that includes me.

    I find admitting when I make a mistake and learning new stuff is the best way to deal with it. clown

    And never take yourself too seriously... if I am wrong... it is not the end of the world.

    The key is to be respectful and not nasty or personal.

    Sadly that is not common on the web and anonymity gives great size to very small people (I am not talking about physical size you understand) and some people feel big by making others feel small.

    Glad the people here are all interested in discussion and learning and it is not about ego.


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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:19 am

    GarryB wrote:I find admitting when I make a mistake and learning new stuff is the best way to deal with it. clown

    Glad the people here are all interested in discussion and learning and it is not about ego.

    I strongly agree with both of those statements.

    On topic though. .

    I have a quick question: Is that the Shakhin(or whatever) thermal scope on that SVDS or is it of foreign manufacture?
    Also, who manufactures those collaminator sights being used on the AK-107s and SR-3Ms?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:48 am



    This is the Shakhin thermal weapon scope, and as you can see it is more angular than the scope shown.

    I would need to know more about the source of the image before I comment on its origin... is it in service, or testing.

    It appears to have a rounded shape to it, but Russian optics companies are in the process of mastering 2nd and 3rd gen thermal imagers so it could come from any of a number of makers.


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