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    Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Apr 17, 2018 4:11 am

    Videos from the manufacturer



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    George1

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  George1 on Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:22 pm

    Fresh img of OTs-129. Interesting semi-auto marksman/sniper rifle by TsKIB SOO(of KBP).
    1st presented last May at Law Enforcement Advanced Tech Day. Seems Western/reminds of SR-25:upper&lower receiver.;appears direct impingement(!?);apparently extensive use of alum;10-rd 7.62x51 mag



    https://twitter.com/Russian_Defence/status/989814916243689472


    This seems to be an experimental short barrel variant of ZiD's ASVK-M (6V7M).Could be chambered for .338 Lapua Magnum(?) cartridge - which is quite popular with Russian snipers & marksman. Also note what appears to be a Steyr SSG 08 / Elite 08 bipod.



    https://twitter.com/Russian_Defence/status/989821062350278662

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    George1

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  George1 on Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:21 pm

    A combat variant prototype of Orsis K-15 Brat with a burst mode in 7.62 x 51 mm. Reminds of FN SCAR- looks, calibre & system wise - most likely features a short-stroke gas piston & gas regulator.Probably intended for export market but might find its way into some spetsnaz units.



    https://twitter.com/Russian_Defence/status/990195885907816448

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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Sun Apr 29, 2018 5:29 pm

    George1 wrote:A combat variant prototype of Orsis K-15 Brat with a burst mode in 7.62 x 51 mm. Reminds of FN SCAR- looks, calibre & system wise - most likely features a short-stroke gas piston & gas regulator.Probably intended for export market but might find its way into some spetsnaz units.



    https://twitter.com/Russian_Defence/status/990195885907816448


    Looks cool welcome welcome welcome but I wonder why still 7,62 in NATO not better Lapua Magnum? higher energy/range.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 01, 2018 11:03 am

    Likely for export.

    Want them to come out with a replacement round for the 7.62 x 54mm... something like the 6x49mm or something newer...
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue May 01, 2018 1:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:Likely for export.

    Want them to come out with a replacement round for the 7.62 x 54mm... something like the 6x49mm or something newer...

    6x49mm I've read recently (not bookmarked the source tho Sad ) that in US there is discussion that 6x45mm is much better then Grendel in terms of terminal energy not to mention universality for LMGs and flat trajectory.
    7.62×35mm
    BTW there were lotsa discussions that 7,62x39mm is old Soviet crap and now in US they "discovered" 0.3 blackout 7,62x35mm

    Waht Russians could to is to play with ballistic coefficient and lower a bit weight of bullet so terminal energy is at least the sam eand trajectory flatter for longer distance. Not to mention costs saving to keep millions of AK chambered 7,62x39 as perspective weapons Smile

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_AAC_Blackout






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    Militarov

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  Militarov on Tue May 01, 2018 2:09 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    6x49mm I've read recently (not bookmarked the source tho Sad  ) that in US  there is discussion that 6x45mm is much better then Grendel in terms of terminal energy not to mention universality for LMGs and  flat trajectory.
    7.62×35mm
    BTW there were lotsa discussions that 7,62x39mm is old Soviet crap and now in US they "discovered" 0.3 blackout  7,62x35mm

    Waht Russians could to is to play with ballistic coefficient and lower a bit weight of bullet so terminal energy is at least the sam eand trajectory flatter for longer distance. Not to mention costs saving to keep millions of AK chambered 7,62x39  as perspective weapons Smile

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_AAC_Blackout




    And some quality control too to be honest.

    https://warhead.su/2018/04/26/luchshie-v-mire-chto-ne-tak-s-rossiyskimi-patronami

    I got box of 7,62x54R "Extra" last year from Novosibirsk ammo factory in one shop here (on my genuine suprise its available), and it was quite shubby, actually quite horrid compared to Serbian PPU and Winchester i mostly buy. Box contained 20, one failed for unknown reasons, one was "delaborated" by the loading mechanism of Izmash "Tiger" carabine.
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    KoTeMoRe

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  KoTeMoRe on Tue May 01, 2018 8:23 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    6x49mm I've read recently (not bookmarked the source tho Sad  ) that in US  there is discussion that 6x45mm is much better then Grendel in terms of terminal energy not to mention universality for LMGs and  flat trajectory.
    7.62×35mm
    BTW there were lotsa discussions that 7,62x39mm is old Soviet crap and now in US they "discovered" 0.3 blackout  7,62x35mm

    Waht Russians could to is to play with ballistic coefficient and lower a bit weight of bullet so terminal energy is at least the sam eand trajectory flatter for longer distance. Not to mention costs saving to keep millions of AK chambered 7,62x39  as perspective weapons Smile

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.300_AAC_Blackout




    And some quality control too to be honest.

    https://warhead.su/2018/04/26/luchshie-v-mire-chto-ne-tak-s-rossiyskimi-patronami

    I got box of 7,62x54R "Extra" last year from Novosibirsk ammo factory in one shop here (on my genuine suprise its available), and it was quite shubby, actually quite horrid compared to Serbian PPU and Winchester i mostly buy. Box contained 20, one failed for unknown reasons, one was "delaborated" by the loading mechanism of Izmash "Tiger" carabine.

    That is no quality control issue it is an ethical issue. How many dinosaur surplus cans have been passed as new rounds? I had relaquered 7,62's with powder compound being from the 70's. But at least this is commercial crap, lightyears away from the US procuring UXO grade M43 to Afghanistan and Niger. Ironically they were procuring sub-10 ammo to the Al-Qaeda buddies. There is an ethical issue with the Russian manufacturers, that has nothing to do with their actual industrial capabilities. This is a managerial problem. Will remain so until some suit is hanging by the balls.
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Tue May 01, 2018 8:34 pm

    KoTeMoRe wrote: That is no quality control issue it is an ethical issue. How many dinosaur surplus cans have been passed as new rounds?

    ethics an business are adversely correlated. At best not correlated. Not only in Russia in capitalism in general. Nocontrol, no sanctions. Et voila.


    This is a managerial problem. Will remain so until some suit is hanging by the balls.

    +1000 attack attack






    but gents as for making "lightweight" 7,62x39mm say trading 125g bullet to 70-80 to increase AK initial energy and velocity? does it make sense?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 02, 2018 3:34 am

    6x49mm I've read recently (not bookmarked the source tho Sad ) that in US there is discussion that 6x45mm is much better then Grendel in terms of terminal energy not to mention universality for LMGs and flat trajectory.

    I think you are mixing things up a bit here... 6x49mm is not intended to be some super universal round that replaces assault rifle rounds and full power rifle rounds

    The 6x49mm is a long slim 120 grain bullet moving at 1.2km/s that should be effective out to 1.5km... it gets to 1.5km faster than the 7.62x54mm round and is moving faster when it gets there because of its long narrow shape so retains more energy and arrives faster with less bullet drop...

    The rounds the US is playing with is to replace their 5.56mm, whose only problem is that it is not a sniper rifle round... they want high precision and they want super lethality and it needs to be not effected by wind or distance and kill with each shot... it is something that cannot be found.

    7.62×35mm
    BTW there were lotsa discussions that 7,62x39mm is old Soviet crap and now in US they "discovered" 0.3 blackout 7,62x35mm

    Personally I think the 300 blackout is crap... the 9x39mm offers much better performance with much heavier bullets and is just a better round for quiet ops.

    For silenced ammo you need subsonic so with that restriction you get better performance with heavier projectiles and 9x39mm wins that game across the board.

    Waht Russians could to is to play with ballistic coefficient and lower a bit weight of bullet so terminal energy is at least the sam eand trajectory flatter for longer distance. Not to mention costs saving to keep millions of AK chambered 7,62x39 as perspective weapons

    Yeah... no... what the Russians need to keep in mind is that assault rifle cartridges are not supposed to hit people 800m away let alone kill them at that range.

    The 6x49mm can be used in rifles and machine guns in place of heavier and less accurate 7.62x54mm loaded weapons to reach out and touch, while new 5.45mm calibre weapons can keep doing what they are already doing... improved powders could increase performance by 1.3-1.4 as the first post in this thread suggests by expanding quickly and accelerating the bullet faster down the barrel to get better velocities... better powder and new plastic driving band technology to further improve velocities by 15% should lead to longer barrel life and more lethal bullets using the same ammo in the same guns (5.45 x 39mm) and new ammo in new guns (6x49mm) that can be redesigned because straight walled and rimmless rounds can use simpler actions and straight magazines...


    but gents as for making "lightweight" 7,62x39mm say trading 125g bullet to 70-80 to increase AK initial energy and velocity? does it make sense?

    Not really... Russian and Soviet rifle calibres were standardised... the 7.62x54mmR round actually has a .311 calibre bullet... it is the same width as the 303 british round, but the 7.62x25mm and 7.62x39mm both also have the same .311 diametre bullet, so in theory you could take a 90 grain 7.62x25mm bullet and put it in a 7.62x39mm or 7.62x54mm case if you wanted... there are plenty of bullet weights to choose from... 90 grain for the pistol round, 122 grain and 154 grain for the AK calibre and 149, 173, and 203 grain for the rifle calibre... though I suspect the heavier rounds would leave no space for powder in the pistol case.

    the simple fact is that the AK is effective because of bullet weight and not speed... I always thought the AKS-74U would make more sense in 7.62x39mm or 9x39mm as the short barrel length does not really compromise the performance of the round as much as it does with the 5.45mm round that relies of velocity for effect.

    A light bullet in a 7.62x39mm round means short fat projectile which would be rubbish at longer ranges as it would shed velocity to rapidly and by the time it got to 200-300m it would be going slower than a 120 grain round... of course you could argue that beyond that it does not matter anyway.

    Personally I think the main issue with the 7.62x39 is trajectory but the crux of the issue is range estimation... bullet drop is only an accuracy problem if you don't know the range to the target and you guess wrong.

    For a hunter with a laser range finder the 7.62 x 39mm can be perfectly adequate out to quite extreme ranges...

    Remember the 7.62x51mm is lauded as a super accurate round out to 1km... well at 1km its bullet drop is about 32 feet... so bullet drop is not a good measure for accuracy... if you know the range and you know the drop, your aim can compensate and you can still hit your target.

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    George1

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  George1 on Wed May 30, 2018 12:49 pm

    Russia to upgrade heavy sniper rifle

    The rifle’s upgrade is expected to be completed in 2020

    MOSCOW, May 30. /TASS/. Russia’s 12.7mm heavy sniper rifle OSV-96 will be upgraded to get a new cartridge and become a precision gun, a representative of the Shipunov Instrument-Making Design Bureau (the rifle’s developer) told TASS on Wednesday.

    Today the rifle is less accurate than other guns developed by the Shipunov Instrument-Making Design Bureau, for example, the MTs-116M sniper rifle, he said.

    "Work is underway to upgrade the OSV-96 to increase the accuracy of fire and the density of hits. Now we are at the stage of R&D work, which will be followed by experimental and design work and a cycle of trials. We expect the rifle’s upgrade to be completed in 2020," the design bureau’s representative said.

    A new sniper cartridge is planned to be developed as part of the OSV-96 rifle’s modernization, he added.

    The OSV-96 is a Russian large-caliber sniper rifle designed to destroy enemy manpower and military hardware at large distances. The rifle is chambered for the powerful 12.7x107mm cartridge (used both for machine guns and specialized sniper rifles). According to the rifle’s producer, its accuracy range is 1,800 m. The rifle is fed by a 5-round magazine. The OSV-96 is in service with the Defense Ministry, the Interior Ministry and the Federal Security Service of Russia.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1007174
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed May 30, 2018 1:09 pm

    George1 wrote:Russia to upgrade heavy sniper rifle

    MOSCOW, May 30. /TASS/. Russia’s 12.7mm heavy sniper rifle OSV-96 will be upgraded to get a new cartridge and become a precision gun, a representative of the Shipunov Instrument-Making Design Bureau (the rifle’s developer) told TASS on Wednesday


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1007174

    self-guided ammo?

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    George1

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  George1 on Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:13 pm

    Russian President Vladimir Putin visited the Kalashnikov Concern’s shooting range and tested the company's brand new sniper rifle in Kubinka on Wednesday.
    After inspecting the experimental samples of the rifles, Putin shot five times with an SVCh-308 (Chukavin sniper’s rifle) rifle at a target from a distance of 600 meters. Three of the president's shots successfully hit the target.
    According to Kalashnikov, the SVCh-308 rifle is designed to engage the enemy's manpower at small and medium distances. It can be used in conditions of combined arms combat as well as for keeping a cover. The rifle's small dimensions allow the shooter to do without additional weapons, which increases mobility.

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    Hole

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  Hole on Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:26 pm

    Not bad for a man who doesn´t shoot every day.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:38 am

    but gents as for making "lightweight" 7,62x39mm say trading 125g bullet to 70-80 to increase AK initial energy and velocity? does it make sense?

    The new rifle I recently bought is the 5.6x39mm Bars-4-1.... it is basically the 7.62x39mm case necked down to 5.6mm... it comes in two versions... one with a FMJ round and one with a soft nose hunting round... muzzle velocity is between 1km/s and 1.2km/s.

    Compared with the 5.45x39mm this 5.6mm round has a much fatter cartridge case and therefore more powder, but is limited by a short stumpy projectile that dumps speed rapidly.

    Regarding your original question, in the US they took the 5.6x39mm and scaled it to make the .22PPC and the 6mmPPC rounds... which are the standard for bench rest shooting out to 300m in terms of accuracy and performance.

    The Grendel round is also based on the round too...
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Sep 28, 2018 5:55 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    but gents as for making "lightweight" 7,62x39mm say trading 125g bullet to 70-80 to increase AK initial energy and velocity? does it make sense?

    The new rifle I recently bought is the 5.6x39mm Bars-4-1.... it is basically the 7.62x39mm case necked down to 5.6mm... it comes in two versions... one with a FMJ round and one with a soft nose hunting round... muzzle velocity is between 1km/s and 1.2km/s.

    Compared with the 5.45x39mm this 5.6mm round has a much fatter cartridge case and therefore more powder, but is limited by a short stumpy projectile that dumps speed rapidly.

    well if you are talking abut Bars 4.1 then 1,2km/s weight is 2,8g while standard AK is 8g.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/5,6_%C3%97_39_%D0%BC%D0%BC



    Regarding your original question, in the US they took the 5.6x39mm and scaled it to make the .22PPC and the 6mmPPC rounds... which are the standard for bench rest shooting out to 300m in terms of accuracy and performance.

    The Grendel round is also based on the round too...

    True but my point was if without any sinigficatn changes you can use 7,62x39mm but trade of weight of round for better energy and range? not 8g but say 6g and ~800m/s?
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    GunshipDemocracy

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:08 pm

    Hypersonic sniper cartridges can be developed in Russia within the next year


    MOSCOW, September 25 - RIA News. Hypersonic sniper cartridges can be developed in Russia within the next year, told RIA Novosti the founder and chief designer of the arms company Lobaev Arms Vladislav Lobaev.

    "We are closely studying this topic, I think, with a certain state support already in a state for a year to create a sniper cartridge with the initial speed of a bullet flight of two thousand meters a second." This is hypersound, "Lobaev said.

    According to him, such cartridges are needed for high-precision sniper weapons, which will provide a new level of range and accuracy of aimed fire. He noted that such cartridges will be equipped not with gunpowder, but with detonating chemicals of a special composition.

    Most modern sniper rifles and cartridges report bullets with an initial speed of up to 1200 meters per second.

    Lobaev Arms is a brand owned by KB Integrated Systems, which in turn is included in the group of companies "LOBAEV", a Russian company, which was founded in 2013 in the Kaluga region.

    https://ria.ru/arms/20180925/1529268063.html




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    GarryB

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GarryB on Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:44 am


    True but my point was if without any sinigficatn changes you can use 7,62x39mm but trade of weight of round for better energy and range? not 8g but say 6g and ~800m/s?

    Look at the 5.6x39mm round as a case in point... it has a 45 grain bullet moving at between 1 and 1.2km/s... which is compared with the 7.62x39mm with a 122 grain bullet at about 730m/s.

    You can make the 7.62x39mm bullet lighter but if you keep the same diameter then you end up with a short stubby bullet with very poor aerodynamic shape.

    It might heave the barrel at 800m/s, but it will rapidly slow down in the air so by the time it gets to 300m it is moving much slower than even the standard round would.

    The 5.6x39mm was developed in the 1950s as a short range round and its short stubby small calibre projectile is a very poor aerodynamic shape for very high speed, so although its muzzle velocity is higher than a 223 remington round at about 200m it is much slower and also still much lighter and so has less energy.

    The ideal shape is long and narrow... the width is what is pushing through the air so a narrow bullet needs to push less air aside as it moves forward, while the length means weight and momentum, so a long bullet has more mass to push through the air.

    If you think of a balloon blown up with normal air it is very light but it is also very big, so trying to throw it is difficult... you can't accelerate it up to high speed and when you let go it rapidly slows down because of its high drag.

    It is how a parachute works... adding a parachute to a skydiver adds weight but when deployed properly greatly increases the surface area so they slow down to a safe falling speed.

    If you took the 5.6x39mm round and increased the bullet weight to say 65 or 70 grain but also made the projectile longer and more pointed at the front, then the muzzle velocity would go down but the aerodynamic performance would dramatically improve so you would get a much more effective round because it would maintain higher speed for longer and it is all about speed.

    Trajectory is due to gravity and gravity is fixed... 9.8m/s/s.

    A 120 grain bullet moving at 730m/s at the muzzle but 300m/s at 300m is going to have a more curved trajectory than a 12 grain flechette fired from a 5.6x39mm case at 1,800m/s that is still moving at 1,600m/s at 800m.

    Note during the tests for new rifles in the US the Steyr entry which used flechettes for projectiles had fixed iron sights because there was no need to allow for bullet drop out to 800m...

    The only problem was that unless they hit something hard like a belt buckle they punched a pin hole in the target and were not very lethal...

    Regarding this new news with new propellant and 2km/s muzzle velocities... this is very interesting...

    With these sorts of speeds barrel wear would be an issue, but driving bands for rounds would increase muzzle velocity and eliminate barrel wear...

    Also this new promising propellant would explain why we have not seen a 6x49mm round enter service to replace the 7.62x54mmR round...

    Will the new propellant be solid or liquid or gas?

    Will they need shell cases?

    A binary propellant fuel tank designed to enclose the barrel as a coolant and to prepare the fuel to make it burn hotter with another liquid in the buttstock... they might burn separately but explode when mixed but only be mixed in the chamber...

    It could come with two tubes to load propellant into the stock and barrel cover, and a bag of projectiles, instead of ammo...

    New levels of acceleration could lead to new projectile designs...

    All very interesting...
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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:23 am

    GarryB wrote:

    You can make the 7.62x39mm bullet lighter but if you keep the same diameter then you end up with a short stubby bullet with very poor aerodynamic shape.

    +++

    A 120 grain bullet moving at 730m/s at the muzzle but 300m/s at 300m is going to have a more curved trajectory than a 12 grain flechette fired from a 5.6x39mm case at 1,800m/s that is still moving at 1,600m/s at 800m.

    Note during the tests for new rifles in the US the Steyr entry which used flechettes for projectiles had fixed iron sights because there was no need  to allow for bullet drop out to 800m...

    The only problem was that unless they hit something hard like a belt buckle they punched a pin hole in the target and were not very lethal...


    No doubt this is right. You provided correct however extreme examples either 10g or 2,8g. Why not 800m/s and 7g ?  Nevertheless there is  an optimum between muzzle energy (velocity/weight)  delivered and transferred to target in desired distance.  But ok just my considerations, I guess making anything like that for existing 7,62x39mm weapons (or future ones) make poor cost/effect ratio.





    Regarding this new news with new propellant and 2km/s muzzle velocities... this is very interesting...
    +++
    All very interesting...

    with new materials many things get possible. Besides it this is a sniper weapon it is not going to shoot massive number of rounds vbut flat trajectory and long range counts...

    BTW I m not sure whether this is related but also interesting concept. Mind info form 2016.


    A sniper-rocket complex with guided bullet to be created in Russia


    Moscow. July 18th. INTERFAX.RU - The Advanced Research Foundation (FPI) is developing new composite barrels and long-range bullets for small arms, said Andrei Grigoriev, director general of the FPI.

    “A fundamentally new family of bullets is being created, for example, from two or more metals, with special armor-piercing and long-range properties. Intelligent sights, a promising sniper rocket complex with a controlled bullet, and much more are being designed,” Grigoriev said in an interview to be published in Russian newspaper "on Tuesday.

    According to him, the new composite barrels, which are being developed by FPI, "will be much easier than usual."

    https://www.interfax.ru/russia/519234
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    George1

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    Re: Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

    Post  George1 on Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:48 pm

    Sniper pair of army recon with the Large-Caliber ASVK (Degtyarev sniper rifle)










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