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    Russian Sniper Rifles and Units

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    Post  Regular on Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:05 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I've always wondered if the OSV-96 is more effective than the KSVK. Does the KSVKs bullpup layout give it any advantage?
    For this calibre only 1 advantage could be dimentions. But anyways, they are both date back from long time and they are rather outdated today. I would say leave it to ORSIS to create new anti-material rifle. They did artwork with T-5000.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:15 pm

    AFAIK the OSV-96 is more accurate, while the KSVK is much more compact, though the OSV-96 does fold in half to make it a more compact weapon to carry (not more compact than the bullpup, but a significant amount shorter than many similar rifles with similar barrel lengths).

    They were talking about new weapon families... would like to see a new family of AMR that include a 12.7 x 108mm, a combined 14.5mm x 114mm and 23 x 115mm rifle, and a 30mm/40mm grenade launching version.

    They already have a 30 x 165mm calibre AMR...
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    Post  Regular on Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:23 pm

    As for soviets not having dedicated sniper rifle - realities of war were different back then, it was up to west to leave sniper teams working behind enemy lines, terrorising rear echelon. As main force of soviets would move fast, sniper teams wouldn't have chance to effectively harass them. Snipers didn't fall in soviet doctrine. Now times are different and SVD is not enough even for it's intended role. Had chance to shoot old SVD and I would rather stick with M-14 than this rifle. Don't know about SVDK and how it performs, but it would be cool to see SVD being ditched and instead marksman version of new AK-12 with longer barrel, bigger caliber and etc.
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:41 pm

    The SVD is a dedicated sniper rifle... the people saying it isn't are westerners and their main reason for saying that is that it is not accurate to 1,000m.

    It is only their definition of what a sniper is that makes the SVD not a sniper rifle, but that is their problem.

    The SVD is a sniper rifle, and was the first dedicated sniper rifle, as opposed to previous rifles used by snipers which were adapted from standard battle rifles into sniper rifles.

    Snipers operate in a range of situations and environments and in many cases never actually fire a shot... their observations are often more useful than killing any one enemy soldier and revealing their position.

    The SVD was not designed to be super accurate, but with proper training and the right ammo it matches the NATO standard for sniper rifle accuracy out to about 600m or so.

    Being accurate enough while still offering a fast follow up shot with its semiauto design it is a better rifle than many out there.

    Personally prefer the FN FAL over the M14 too BTW... Razz

    The SVDS is supposed to be more accurate and designed to be used with armour piercing ammo as standard, with the advantage of a folding stock for compact design.

    I remember reading somewhere they are working on a bullpup model of the SVD with the intention of making a long range accurate rifle that is compact. The SVDU is already a bullpup version but it was designed for use by police and paramilitary forces up to 400m at most.

    There was also the 6 x 49mm version of the SVD too and of course the 338 LM model would be interesting too.

    A 6 x 49mm and 338LM model AK12 would be interesting...
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    Post  Regular on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:32 pm

    Well name - Snaiperskaya Vintovka Dragunova suggests that it is sniper rifle, but now it doesn't fall in same category. While more accurate M-14 DMR is designated marksman rifle.
    SVD doesn't have good ammo, optics that come with it aren't good these days too. It can compete with M-14 but later has better ammo to choose from and slight edge on accuracy. Modular design would be way better. The new DMR rifles are not always more accurate than lets say M-14, but they are lightyear ahead in ergonomics. If AK-12 proves to be as good as we imagine, it definitely can be converted to DMR even on the go. Hope the new calibre they are testing would be good for longer ranges too.

    Might I ask You why do you prefer FN FAL? Do You own it? I hated AK4 (it is basicly G3). Long clunky almost impossible to control bursts. Never had them fitted with optics. Reliability was terrible, almost bad as with M-16. Thanks god we have G36KA4 now (reliability of Kalashnikov + good accuracy and ergonomics + no stupid optics like on basic version)
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    Post  Zivo on Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:28 am

    As for soviets not having dedicated sniper rifle - realities of war were different back then, it was up to west to leave sniper teams working behind enemy lines, terrorising rear echelon. As main force of soviets would move fast, sniper teams wouldn't have chance to effectively harass them. Snipers didn't fall in soviet doctrine. Now times are different and SVD is not enough even for it's intended role. Had chance to shoot old SVD and I would rather stick with M-14 than this rifle. Don't know about SVDK and how it performs, but it would be cool to see SVD being ditched and instead marksman version of new AK-12 with longer barrel, bigger caliber and etc.

    I wish I could get my hand on a real SVD in the states. All you can really find around here are PSLs. I'm just curious, do you know what rounds you were using? Apparently the 7N14 round makes a world of difference.
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:13 am

    Well name - Snaiperskaya Vintovka Dragunova suggests that it is sniper rifle, but now it doesn't fall in same category. While more accurate M-14 DMR is designated marksman rifle.

    SVD is custom designed sniper rifle.

    M14 is a modified battle rifle.

    M14 is only accurate with good ammo designed for the role... grab a hand full of the ammo from an M60 machine gun and watch how pitifully inaccurate an M14 can be.

    The main problem with the SVD is that most people who "test" it are not using the correct ammo.

    It wont blow the nuts off a fly at 600m but it is effective enough to hit an enemy soldier in the chest at that range and with heat treated AP ammo that is enough.

    The SVDs handed out to platoons of troops in Motor rifle and tank brigades and divisions are used as designated marksman rifles and for that role they are just fine.

    SVDs used by special forces for actual sniping missions are good enough for most tasks, though obviously for some missions a rifle that is more accurate might be more useful now that they are looking at shooting at targets at much longer range than previously anticipated.

    There is no reason why the SVD could not be improved to be as good as if not even better than the M14, FN FAL or G3... or of sniper rifles based on them like the M21 and PSG-1.

    The real issue is proper ammo... the Soviets already had an M14 like rifle... that was the Tokarev and they rejected the idea of using a modified battle rifle and chose to custom make one for a range of reasons.

    Might I ask You why do you prefer FN FAL? Do You own it?

    I find it very comfortable to fire, recoil is like a gentle straight push rather than the sharp kick from my Mosin rifles.

    The only thing I don't like about my SLR is that the gas plug goes in two different ways, yet only actually works one way, so depending on how I put it back in when I clean it, I either get a second shot, or I have a straight pull manual bolt action... Smile

    It is a very long rifle but has a good balance and feel to it, though it is heavier than an SVD.

    It is fairly straight forward to strip and clean... its tipping block mechanism reminds me a little of the SKS design.

    First time I took of the butt stock I got smacked in the head by the main return spring, but otherwise it is a good rifle.

    I hated AK4 (it is basicly G3). Long clunky almost impossible to control bursts. Never had them fitted with optics. Reliability was terrible, almost bad as with M-16.

    I have heard good things about the G3... perhaps your government bought them "cheap" and got what they paid for. Here in NZ our Steyrs are Australian made... and don't tend to be as good as the originals made in Austria either.

    Bursts in that calibre are not often rated for accuracy in rifles. Put a heavy barrel and a bipod and perhaps get some better performance but such use should only be recommended at very close range. BTW in the Falklands war the interesting situation of the British with their semi auto only L1A1s and the Argentines with their full auto capable FN FALs led to British soldiers taking the auto sears from the Argentine rifles to enable them to burst fire their L1A1s. Sounds like they found value in burst fire... especially in close quarters... but then often soldiers do things that seem right at the time but cold analysis after the event shows different.


    I wish I could get my hand on a real SVD in the states.

    Due to laws here in NZ you need a special licence category to own a real SVD, but an SVD with the muzzle brake removed and a 7 shot mag or smaller can be owned on a general licence... like this one below:


    http://www.guncity.co.nz/7.62x54-xidg28211.html

    (note suppressors are unregulated in NZ so you don't need a special licence to own the beast above...
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    Post  Zivo on Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:59 am

    Due to laws here in NZ you need a special licence category to own a real SVD, but an SVD with the muzzle brake removed and a 7 shot mag or smaller can be owned on a general licence... like this one below:


    http://www.guncity.co.nz/7.62x54-xidg28211.html

    (note suppressors are unregulated in NZ so you don't need a special licence to own the beast above.

    Although the receiver of the Tigr is essentially an authentic dragunov, it isn't exactly the same gun. The total barrel length is shorter and there's a few other minor differences I don't remember off the top of my head. That's nice that suppressors are unregulated. We need to register suppressors and pay a $200 tax stamp, at least in my state.

    True SVDs are almost impossible to find in the US, I believe there are 199 total that have been imported, and one POS SVD that was imported from Iraq by a smart US soldier. It was rusted, beat up, and it sold for ~$6,000. Tigrs are the next best thing.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:08 pm

    You need a licence to own a firearm in NZ, but if you want to get a special endorsement on your licence for military style semi automatics then you can buy a real SVD.

    They are not import banned in NZ.
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    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:06 am

    First photos of the VS-121

    http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/32728/
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    Post  Mr.Kalishnikov47 on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:19 am

    TheArmenian wrote:First photos of the VS-121

    http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/32728/

    Soooo. . A tacticool SVU?
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    Post  Zivo on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:24 am

    looks like it

    Note that the charging handle was moved forward, and it was given a rather thick barrel.
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    Post  Zivo on Wed May 01, 2013 3:17 am

    Russian Sniper Rifles and Units - Page 7 Shut-up-and-take-my-money2

    Izhmash needs to export that SVU to the States.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue May 07, 2013 2:01 pm

    Russian Sniper Rifles and Units - Page 7 Mdkm1s10

    Looks like it has a very heavy barrel to me... should be much more accurate.

    I suspect that big scope is not for short range work either... otherwise looks like a pretty standard SVD, with the thin gas tube for the short stroke gas system.

    (note the original SVD does not have the recoil mass problems of the AK as the piston only moves a few cms and the mechanism moving back and forth is light... its main problem is that the rifle is very light and the cartridge used is powerful that leads to firm recoil.

    The inline stock, and very heavy barrel this weapon should be rather more comfortable to fire... especially with a bipod and foregrip, though a much larger buttstock pad would be a useful addition too.
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    Post  GarryB on Wed May 08, 2013 3:28 am

    Article in RT:

    http://rt.com/news/izhmash-bullpup-sniper-rifle-889/

    Points I found interesting:

    The new rifle is fitted with an up-to-date trigger and firing mechanism, and is compatible with 7.62×54mm and 7.62×51mm shells, as well as with “advanced new ammunition currently developed by the Izhmash design-engineering center specialists,” the statement issued by the Izhevsk Machinebuilding Plant (Izhmash) said on Monday.

    Does that mean it is multi calibre, or they will make models in 7.62 x 54 and 762 51 and this new calibre?

    Better trigger and firing mechanism always welcome... the main reason for doing this is to improve accuracy.

    4.5kgs... same weight as the original... impressive... rifles normally gain a lot of weight in the conversion to bullpup.

    And from Izhmash:

    The first sample of the BC-121 has a barrel length of the classic - 620 mm obtained by electrochemical etching. It is planned to manufacture barrels by gouging and cut.

    So it has a full length SVD barrel... good for scope makers... Smile
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    Post  GarryB on Thu May 09, 2013 2:52 am

    New SV-98:



    Unlike its predecessor, the upgraded SV-98 has a new ergonomic box made of aluminum alloy, which you can install all the modern sights.

    In this case, the replacement of the lodge had a positive impact on the accuracy of fire in the difficult conditions of combat, as the aluminum alloys are more stable with temperature changes.

    At this point, the first sample upgraded rifles tested (including extreme conditions) based on the test station "Izhmash". According to our tests, accuracy of the upgraded SE-98 on the basis of a series of 10 shots domestic sniper bullet is within one minute of angle (MOA 1) and target ammo - 0.5 MOA and better.

    Replacing the box will make the SV-98 rifle more technological in production, and its price - more competitive.

    So they are going to introduce a new Aluminium receiver that reduces costs, improves accuracy, and I suspect makes it slightly lighter too.

    This is very good news because for the Soviet/Russian sniper that haven't been a huge range of options for rugged accurate rifles for them to choose from... so they will have a more accurate and more compact SVD as a designated marksman rifle out to probably 800m or so, where the semi auto design allows quick follow up shots, or a more accurate bolt action design in the upgraded SV-98, probably to 1,000m, while shots at longer ranges can be looking at 338LM rifles like the SV-338 and the rifles from ORSIS.


    SV-98: http://www.izhmash.ru/rus/news/080513.shtml

    VS-121: http://www.izhmash.ru/rus/news/060513.shtml

    The new calibre will be revealed in September apparently.
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    Post  SWAT Pointman on Fri May 10, 2013 12:06 am

    GarryB wrote:Article in RT:

    http://rt.com/news/izhmash-bullpup-sniper-rifle-889/

    Points I found interesting:

    The new rifle is fitted with an up-to-date trigger and firing mechanism, and is compatible with 7.62×54mm and 7.62×51mm shells, as well as with “advanced new ammunition currently developed by the Izhmash design-engineering center specialists,” the statement issued by the Izhevsk Machinebuilding Plant (Izhmash) said on Monday.

    Does that mean it is multi calibre, or they will make models in 7.62 x 54 and 762 51 and this new calibre?

    Better trigger and firing mechanism always welcome... the main reason for doing this is to improve accuracy.

    4.5kgs... same weight as the original... impressive... rifles normally gain a lot of weight in the conversion to bullpup.

    And from Izhmash:

    The first sample of the BC-121 has a barrel length of the classic - 620 mm obtained by electrochemical etching. It is planned to manufacture barrels by gouging and cut.

    So it has a full length SVD barrel... good for scope makers... Smile
    I wonder what a "new up to date trigger and firing mechanism" means? What they are describing sounds like the standard barrel making process Izmash has used. What I wonder is why they didn't use the AK-12 as a base? It makes more sense from a unification and cost standpoint.
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    Post  SWAT Pointman on Fri May 10, 2013 12:11 am

    GarryB wrote:New SV-98:



    Unlike its predecessor, the upgraded SV-98 has a new ergonomic box made of aluminum alloy, which you can install all the modern sights.

    In this case, the replacement of the lodge had a positive impact on the accuracy of fire in the difficult conditions of combat, as the aluminum alloys are more stable with temperature changes.

    At this point, the first sample upgraded rifles tested (including extreme conditions) based on the test station "Izhmash". According to our tests, accuracy of the upgraded SE-98 on the basis of a series of 10 shots domestic sniper bullet is within one minute of angle (MOA 1) and target ammo - 0.5 MOA and better.

    Replacing the box will make the SV-98 rifle more technological in production, and its price - more competitive.

    So they are going to introduce a new Aluminium receiver that reduces costs, improves accuracy, and I suspect makes it slightly lighter too.

    This is very good news because for the Soviet/Russian sniper that haven't been a huge range of options for rugged accurate rifles for them to choose from... so they will have a more accurate and more compact SVD as a designated marksman rifle out to probably 800m or so, where the semi auto design allows quick follow up shots, or a more accurate bolt action design in the upgraded SV-98, probably to 1,000m, while shots at longer ranges can be looking at 338LM rifles like the SV-338 and the rifles from ORSIS.


    SV-98: http://www.izhmash.ru/rus/news/080513.shtml

    VS-121: http://www.izhmash.ru/rus/news/060513.shtml

    The new calibre will be revealed in September apparently.
    Are you sure it's not just the stock that is made of aluminum alloy, or is it the stock has aluminum bedding in it?
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    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:31 pm

    One more time Russian snipers, armed with Orsis-T-5000, win for the second time in a row the gold medal at military and police sniper world cup.


    http://katamarania.livejournal.com/220451.html
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    Post  Cyberspec on Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:41 am

    Nice....I haven't been following the news, so was wondering has the Orsis been accepted for service?
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:00 am

    As far as I can tell they don't really have the production capacity for a large army order, and that their rifles will continue to be used by the MVD and FSB and other special branches, while the Army is looking at SV-98 and SV-338 like rifles.
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    Post  Cyberspec on Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:30 pm

    Yeah I know it won't be in mass service. I just wasn't sure if it was officially accepted by the FSB and MVD
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:51 am

    Yeah I know it won't be in mass service. I just wasn't sure if it was officially accepted by the FSB and MVD

    In a lot of paramilitary shooting competitions they often have Orsis rifles competing and doing rather well. I suspect the FSB and MVD and other specialised forces will get a lot of choice in the matter regarding the equipment they will be getting and I suspect with smaller purchases that a higher price will be spent to get the best available equipment.

    The design of the VS-121 clearly shows they are wanting to compete in the long range sniper market... the full length barrel and heavy barrel at that and the large scope shown and also comments about improved trigger arrangements suggests to me that they want an M21 like rifle in a more compact package to replace the SVDS.

    The whole purpose for the SV-98 being developed was to create a more accurate rifle for missions the SVD just wasn't accurate enough for. The SV-98 was based on a civilian target rifle so accuracy is a focus, but the SVD was also developed with accuracy in mind... but only to about 600m or so as this was all that was required of the time.
    There is plenty of talk about hitting targets at 1km range with 30 cal rifles like the M14, but it is one thing doing it on a shooting range at targets of a fixed and passive nature on a range of known distance using specially prepared ammo from a shooting mat all wrapped up nice and warm... not hungry... not tired... and not being shot at... and with the optics that make the target visible with no worries about whether this target is friend or foe.
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    Post  Regular on Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:29 pm

    Well knowing what training snipers undergo and still are expected to put Olympic results. Adverse weather conditions, stress and situations that demand quick decision are every day job for them.
    Nice to know that Russia has revived sniper teams knowing how successful they were in WW2.
    I have seen new Russian multilayer uniforms, shoes and etc. Russian military dry ration is very good too. It would make even Russian winter like a walk in a park.
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    Post  Zivo on Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:35 pm

    It would make even Russian winter like a walk in a park.

    You must be trolling... I don't believe that for a second.

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