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    Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

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    Flanky
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  Flanky on Mon May 16, 2011 11:35 pm

    Russian military don't think of problems in MIC because of Serdyukov. He is a manager and he thinks in numbers and his goals to achieve during his timetable.
    Meaning that if there is a factory that was producing tanks last year, then there will be no problem if the factory will have half year stop and then produce the same tanks of the same quality. Thats the managers thinking. We will give you money.... you take care of the rest. And we don't care how you will do it, just do it... thats the typical manager thinking. He does not have the clear overview what problems the factories might run into... because he is not an expert on retooling or anything like that and his subordinates that might have expertise with this are usually silent because Serdyukov is known to be hot tempered against people that do not share his opinions. Another thing is Popov. Popov to me was a pure idiot. Instead of mediating between MIC and Ministry of defense he was clearly Serdyukovs puppet. and in my opinion Poppov is the one totally useless running project overseeing of T-95 only to come out and tell Uralvagonzavod that T-95 is not needed. I might know what was Putin and Medvedev thinking when they got Serdyukov as Defense Minister - the old grandpas with their "our huge numbers will solve everything" kind of thinking had to be put out. Russia by population is not as huge as soviet union so the entire military doctrine had to change, and with this change also people had to change. There is this old saying you cannot teach an old horse new stuff. But people in the ministry do need to think of the industry and its problems. On the other hand you have to also think that in the industry there are some greedy oligarchs that would like to get paid and deliver shit or deliver the products too late. One example is the Indian Aircraft Carrier INS Vikramaditya. The end of overhaul was reportedly delayed by couple of !!!!years!!!! due to some "problems" and entire project became significantly more expensive. Clearly somebody got their pockets full here. Im absolutely convinced that if there were true problems the project would be delayed no more than a half year and not by 3 years! Thats just utterly unacceptable! Guys in Sevmash can say goodbye to another carrier deals from india and not just india. The same was with Algerian Mig-29 scandals. Algeria paid full price for brand new migs. Instead somebody wanted to be smart and wealthy so he ordered the guys to dissasemble old migs and put some parts into the new ones. When you are the military industrial complex representative and you are doing a deal with govermnent about brand new product requiring new technology, it is normal that you will take into account also budget needed for retooling and education of workforce. Thats absolutely normal. Nobody would pay the retooling and education from the company pockets unless the company has made significant profits from previus exports.

    And when it comes to develop new stuff. Most of the time you are right Garry you need to look what others have and start from there. But it is know that Russia nad China often does have innovative approach to certain things and this approach often needs to reinvent the "wheel" totally from scratch. Remember the coaxial rotor system? Remember the legendary K36 ejection seat? The guys here had to throw away the conservative thinking and start from beginning. Scramjet is a perfect example of this. People want to have faster planes? Ok. But instead of making the current jet engines more powerfull how about focusing on developing a completely new engine working on new physical principles. But i have no doubt you know this Smile

    Now what i am about to tell you migh sound completely shocking but: Japanese industrial robots are not actually that good. Market leaders in this segment are ABB and Kuka robotics. ABB a Swiss company, Kuka German one. ABB and Siemens are leaders in complex industrial solutions including CAM, CAD software. Germans and Russians are very close to each other - if you know this, it starts to make perfect sense why is that. But you are absolutely right. You cannot have a world class industry focusing only on the big picture of building ships, planes, satelites, rockets, cars. You need a complete support industry as well. Something what we call business machines. In other words products that are not meant for end-user customer, but that are meant to support the core business of other companies. that would be for example point of sale, kiosks, networking hardware, data center server clusters and so on. Russians do know this very well and they DO have companies focusing in their respective areas. But ultimately everything comes to the single most important point. Which is... you need state of the art electronics industry. You need to have a processor capable of raw computing power ideally equal or even better than best foreign counterpart. Very large portion of your economys destiny lies in this single fact. If your economy has to import such processor, you are not only dangerously dependent on foreign technology and in such case a state embargo can turn you to your knees, but you are also prudent on what is called hardware hacks. In other words your processor might have a secret functionality unknown to you, which might cause a lot of troubles. Currently in Russia there is one very promising company specializing in High Performance Computing, its name is T-Platforms http://www.t-platforms.ru
    Another thing Avtovaz is investing into industry automation tools also based on CNC -> http://robot.vaz.ru/
    Russia do have also couple of companies producing electronic chips.
    I remember that starting arround 2000 there was a huge story that some moscow computer scientific institutedeveloped microprocessor more powerfull that Intel Itanium. They dubbed it Itanium killer. Official name of the CPU was Elbrus. Russia has so called fab-less design studios. Which can basically design very powerfull chips, but they don't have the facilities to manufacture them. Current top class chips are in 32-45 nano meter process. I think Sitronics Mikron in Russia is building a factory with manufacturing process of 65 - 90 nano meters. Which in my opinion is ok but this would not be enough. I know that Russians have pumped significant amounts of money into nanotechnologies and it seems to me that they want to leap over the 32-45nm step and end up ahead. However im not sure to what degree this will be a successfull strategy. However what i am saying here that if they will be carefull enough, they can catch up with the rest very quickly and take over the lead in High technology sectors like the military one is.
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 17, 2011 9:04 am

    Thanks for posting Flanky... interesting info and links... Smile
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  nightcrawler on Tue May 17, 2011 10:58 am

    Very good article & vote from my side. I like your post in the sense that it entails the urge to develop products rather high-end products for civilians. Remember why the Boeing was not selected for the JSF programme (even though their plane was simple in many aspects) is because the elites knew that Boeing (unlike Lockheed) isn't dependent solely on military planes but rather largely upon civilian planes.

    It must be stated too that Russian nano-electronics recently got a push from Putin... As far as I know AMD was going to headquarters in Russia...do shed any light upon it. I will be much happy to buy a Russian built processor but alas we don't have any Russian motherboards...processor is a long way ahead.

    Also super-computers were also smuggled into Russia & China; why because they were not capable in those days to manufacture something similar domestically
    SuperComputer Proliferation

    In the end thnx again & good links
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  Flanky on Tue May 17, 2011 4:18 pm

    nightcrawler wrote:Very good article & vote from my side. I like your post in the sense that it entails the urge to develop products rather high-end products for civilians. Remember why the Boeing was not selected for the JSF programme (even though their plane was simple in many aspects) is because the elites knew that Boeing (unlike Lockheed) isn't dependent solely on military planes but rather largely upon civilian planes.

    It must be stated too that Russian nano-electronics recently got a push from Putin... As far as I know AMD was going to headquarters in Russia...do shed any light upon it. I will be much happy to buy a Russian built processor but alas we don't have any Russian motherboards...processor is a long way ahead.

    Also super-computers were also smuggled into Russia & China; why because they were not capable in those days to manufacture something similar domestically
    SuperComputer Proliferation

    In the end thnx again & good links
    Angstrem Russian Integrated Circuits manufacturer bought 130 nm process fabrication tools from AMD. But this does not mean that AMD itself is building manufacturing facility in Russia.
    Rosnano is a goverment company that is basically driving the Nanotechnology sector in Russia.

    Here is some maybe a bit older but good nevertheless overview:
    http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2009/11/russian-chip-makers-part-1.html
    http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2009/11/russian-chip-makers-part-2.html

    Estimates are that the nanotechnology research will bring forth first its fruits in 2015.
    I can't wait to see them.

    Motherboards are not a problem. If you develop so sophisticated chip as CPU with up to date performance, you usually have the technology and means to also develop Northbridge, Southbridge - in other words a complete chipset on the motherboard and then its only a small step to complete motherboard. However when it comes to CPU back... one thing is to design it, the other to manufacture it. From what i know the intellectual capabilities are there to develop up to date CPU, however what is missing are manufacturing facilities for this.
    Most powerfull Russian CPU have to be manufactured in Taiwan.
    Sitronics had plans to build 45 nanometer production process fab but im not sure about the status of this project.

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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  medo on Tue May 17, 2011 5:58 pm

    So, if I understand correctly, than Russian domestic electronics producers are able to produce all needed components for computers, radars,..., for domestic military needs, that army could be independent of foreign parts. Export products are more depending on buyers wishes. If they wont foreign parts, they could have them.
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  Russian Patriot on Wed May 18, 2011 12:39 am

    Russian high-ranking officials sacked over state defense order

    RIA Novosti

    20:06 17/05/2011

    MOSCOW, May 17 (RIA Novosti) - The Russian government has dismissed a number of military and defense industry officials for their poor performances in implementing the country's ambitious arms procurement program in 2010, the Kremlin said on Tuesday.

    Russian President Dmitry Medvedev on March 10 instructed the government to take adequate measures to improve the situation with the state arms procurement program and punish the officials directly responsible for the disruption of the program.

    "Due to undersupplies of weapons and military hardware, a number of officials from the Defense Ministry's procurement bodies have been discharged from military service, including Deputy Chief of the Armed Forces' Main directorate Maj. Gen. Vaganov, chief of the Directorate for procurement of aircraft Col. Krylov, and Navy Deputy Commander for Armaments Vice Adm. Borisov," the Kremlin said in a statement.

    In addition, Vladimir Grodetsky, the general director of Izhmash, and Arkady Khokhlovich, the general director of the Electrical Engineering Research Institute, have been dismissed from their posts.

    General director of Information Satelliete Systems Nikolai Testoyedov and general director of NPO Mashinostroyenia Alexander Leonov were issued warnings.

    The board of directors of Russia's Sevmash shipyard will discuss the future of general director Nikolai Kalistratov in June.

    "These and other measures in relation to the defense industry and military officials, who disrupted the implementation of state defense order, are sufficient both for the improvement of discipline and personal responsibility and for preventing future interruptions in arms supplies," the Kremlin said.

    Russia's new 2011-2020 arms procurement program stipulates the upgrade of up to 11% of military equipment annually and will allow the country to increase its modern weaponry to 70% by 2020.


    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2011/russia-110517-rianovosti01.htm


    I just hope they are not scapegoats....
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  Flanky on Wed May 18, 2011 12:46 am

    medo wrote:So, if I understand correctly, than Russian domestic electronics producers are able to produce all needed components for computers, radars,..., for domestic military needs, that army could be independent of foreign parts. Export products are more depending on buyers wishes. If they wont foreign parts, they could have them.
    That would be wishfull thinking, but no... As said previusly... most sophisticated Russian CPUs are manufactured in Taiwan. That said, in designing phase ordinary PCs are used where the CPU is either AMD or Intel made. But step by step they are aiming for this independence.


    And regarding the official firings... way to go!
    Putin needs results, not promises and empty words.
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 18, 2011 6:54 am

    And when it comes to develop new stuff. Most of the time you are right Garry you need to look what others have and start from there. But it is know that Russia nad China often does have innovative approach to certain things and this approach often needs to reinvent the "wheel" totally from scratch. Remember the coaxial rotor system? Remember the legendary K36 ejection seat? The guys here had to throw away the conservative thinking and start from beginning. Scramjet is a perfect example of this. People want to have faster planes? Ok. But instead of making the current jet engines more powerfull how about focusing on developing a completely new engine working on new physical principles. But i have no doubt you know this

    This is so very true... the west does not always do things the "Right" way.

    From WWII the west had an enormous heavy four engined bomber fleet... the Germans looked at cruise missiles and ballistic missiles as an alternative and one would have to say that with modern technology applied it was the German solution that ended up being the best.
    Rocket powered torpedos.
    Having a semi automatic sniper rifle in every unit (SVD).
    The whole idea of an IFV.
    Tank gun fired precision guided missiles.
    The use of submachineguns to allow a firepower advantage over an enemy with bolt action rifles.
    The idea of the assault rifle... though the invention of the term is German.
    The replacement of the submachine gun with the assault rifle as a standard firearm for an entire army.
    Supersonic AShMs.
    The first ship operational with vertical launch systems was the Kirov and currently many Russian SAMs are vertical launch systems.
    The first to combine guns and missiles in air defence systems.

    Now what i am about to tell you migh sound completely shocking but: Japanese industrial robots are not actually that good.

    I am a little behind the times in robots, the Japanese mainly dominating the potential commercial robot as a sort of live in slave to care for an aging population.

    Which is... you need state of the art electronics industry. You need to have a processor capable of raw computing power ideally equal or even better than best foreign counterpart. Very large portion of your economys destiny lies in this single fact.

    Smile You understand. So many high tech stuff relies on critical electronics... and not even 22nm super high tech stuff. Even just decent digital controller chips from Texas Instruments can make a critical difference in how hardware can be made to work.

    A case in point is the difference between the RVV-AE (R-77) and the RVV-SD (R-77).
    The latter is much more capable and can be updated via a software patch or software upgrade. The former you need to rip out the electronics and replace it to upgrade.

    I remember that starting arround 2000 there was a huge story that some moscow computer scientific institutedeveloped microprocessor more powerfull that Intel Itanium.

    I remember that too. All they needed was a few hundred million dollars funding.

    However im not sure to what degree this will be a successfull strategy. However what i am saying here that if they will be carefull enough, they can catch up with the rest very quickly and take over the lead in High technology sectors like the military one is.

    Indeed, with the military able to subsidise the process by offering a guaranteed market this shouldn't be that hard. One of the largest users in the world of high speed computers is the NSA of the USA. It is not just about fast chips, it is about grouping processors in a way to maximise their performance by making super computers.
    New chips don't seem to be getting faster, but the current trend is multicore CPUs but that demands programming and motherboard layouts that support such a growth.
    GPUs or Graphics processing Units are much much cheaper than CPUs and also offer another way to improve processing power of a computer with physics processors and huge bandwidth connections to the north bridge controller chips they can operate very fast and move enormous amounts of data quickly.

    Also super-computers were also smuggled into Russia & China; why because they were not capable in those days to manufacture something similar domestically.

    The Russians certainly do make supercomputers, they are not near the top of the worlds fastest computer list but they do have supercomputers and are making and distributing them to various companies like Sukhoi etc so they are less reliant on wind tunnel time to test shapes or RCS ranges to test aircraft and weapons.

    An analogy is like cars... you want your biggest and most important companies to have fast powerful cars, but compared to the worlds fastest land vehicles the cars you actually mass produce and put into service are no where near the top of the list for the worlds fastest... the worlds fastest computers often have extreme methods of making them so very fast that is no practical for mass production and widespread commercial use.

    That would be wishfull thinking, but no... As said previusly... most sophisticated Russian CPUs are manufactured in Taiwan.

    The Russians also have a close relationship with South Korea, and that includes electronics. The South Koreans are building a shipyard in Russia based on their method of shipbuilding which is state of the art at the moment.
    I have not read anything about it but I would suspect that Russia would be interested in getting South Korean electronics companies interested in their new silicon valley program which will be a driving force behind pushing Russia to the next level.

    Russia has the intellect and the talent, but lacks the infrastructure to take business ideas from the prototype through the testing and into the tooling and preproduction phase into the mass production phase. Hopefully their new program with be the piece of the puzzle that has been missing... and that includes in electronics.
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  Flanky on Wed May 18, 2011 6:48 pm

    I like the japanese. they might not be the best in induustrial robots, but they often have innovative approach as to how to use and where thoise robots. Elderly people care is one of them.

    About the Elbrus. Guys working at the Elbrus CPU were bought by Intel together with their intelectual property. Thats the american style of solving an issue of potential concurent. And also asort of a way of appreciation of ones work and its quality. The fact that intel was forced to buy them tells the rest of us that it was serius stuff.

    When it comes to modern processors. There are couple of problems. For example there is a limitation of hardware implementation of so called instructions. Another thing is energy consumtion. Another thing is frequency. For example the technological way to create the transistors on silicon waffers is so that if you densely pack so many transistors one after another and try to indefintiely raise frequencies, then you will have enormous heat dissipations and also capacitance will be a problem as well. However usually with more transistors packed onto small area you need lower power input, but on the other hand they will generate more heat, and if you increase the frequency then even the power will rise up. So you will come to the point where you need better energy and heat management. And thus they introduced the moder of mullticore chip. Which means that during high performance peak all cores can be working on single task (process), something called multithreading or it can be single core working on single task (process), while other cores will be running other tasks processes - something called multitasking. And if the system is idle some of the cores might be underclocked or completelly turned off. With this multicore approach you have way better energy management. However when it comes to frequency, the current physical process model of chip manufacturing has its limits ow many chips you can put on silicon wafer. And thus it has frequency limits. If you would overclock the chip too much you might overheat it so that the structures on the chip would melt or the physical properties of the transistors on the chip would not produce desires behaviours since the clock will seem to them so high that it would allmost be a direct current with no clock at all or the transistors would be not responsive enough to clocks. And this would be a huge problem. The reason why there is so much money into nanotechnology is partially because of these current limitations. People need to again reinvent the wheel how to make chips even smaller and more powerful (more dense). And Russia have pumped collosal amount of money into this research and as said previously.... it seems they are trying to skip the very costly most modern manufacturing chip processes and jump on their own newly developed nanotechnological processes from their own research labs.

    When it comes to supercomputers. The TOP 500 list is kind of thing of image. Although the supercomputers are primarily made for research institution for heavy resource demanding detailistic simulations. They are often used in their second role as kind of marketing the brand of creator. Most of the time you don't need their raw computing power, and most of the time it is technologically not that difficult to make a system with more Tera flops than the one first in the TOP 500. Why? You simply connect more server nodes - blades with more processors. However by time you might come to the limitations of their physical interconnects. Kind of data highway. Because in order for the system to really act virtually as one you need paralel processing capabilities and this kind of thing needs physical interconnects between the nodes with data latencies so low, and data throughputs so high that it would be as if nearly instant enormous data transfers. I know that common computers from the perspective of human sense have this kind of capabilities. However High Performance computing needs way more than that. Because you usually use them for epic amount of mathematical calculations that you need to perform on little timeframe. So the HPC interconects are very important and Russia is doing a serious research on this.
    But more than server clusters and focusing to have a own ocmputer system in top 500, companies should focus on chip performances. Because when you are building a big computer system with high performance computing capabilities you are not that limited by space. Data center of big companies are usually huge. However in consumer electronics and military hardware you are VERY limited on space. And thus it is important to have all the performance and capabilities on single chip. Which is no easy task.

    South koreans are bulding a shipyard in Russia? I didn't know about that. But again i highly doubt that they have some kind of innovative technology Russians don't have so that it will give them huge performance boost and time savings when building ships. I think theh problem is in the corruption in Russia and old geezers. And when it comes to South Korean electronics industry. Don't worry the Eagle is already in his nest Smile Russians and Koreans are already in a very cooperative mode. The problem is in japan. Japanese could be as well if they were not that dumb when it comes to Kuril islands matter. They are stubborn - and by the way most of the ordinary japanese people don't care. Its only the goverment making a huge fuss over it and ultranatitonalists. But then again ultranationalists in japan are again Koreans and against anybody else in Japan.
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  nightcrawler on Wed May 18, 2011 8:04 pm

    ^^ So much to learn...Flanky you really are a valuable addition to this forum thumbsup ...u some electrical engineer?
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  Russian Patriot on Wed May 18, 2011 8:33 pm

    nightcrawler wrote:^^ So much to learn...Flanky you really are a valuable addition to this forum thumbsup ...u some electrical engineer?

    Even better: Programmer
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  Flanky on Wed May 18, 2011 8:47 pm

    Well i don't have a degree in electrical engineering yet, but im working on it.
    I might know some things about high performance computing because i work for company that specializes in server segment.
    Im earning my pay as web developer but i do have broader programming skills.
    So thats about my background Smile
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 19, 2011 5:27 am

    I like the japanese. they might not be the best in induustrial robots, but they often have innovative approach as to how to use and where thoise robots. Elderly people care is one of them.

    What I like about the Japanese is that they will focus their technology to help a consumer group that doesn't have a lot of disposable income (the elderly).
    They develop technology to genuinely help a group that is actually respected in their society.

    In the west we spend more on keeping prisoners locked up than we do on our senior citizens and I think that is disgusting... Mad

    About the Elbrus. Guys working at the Elbrus CPU were bought by Intel together with their intelectual property. Thats the american style of solving an issue of potential concurent. And also asort of a way of appreciation of ones work and its quality. The fact that intel was forced to buy them tells the rest of us that it was serius stuff.

    It also points to why America has so much innovation and high tech... they buy it most of the time, or the wealth of the country attracts it. This is something Russia needs to emulate.

    When it comes to modern processors. There are couple of problems.

    Without repeating the entire block of text I agree... if you consider the CPU as a factory you will find most of the time it is fairly inefficient because data can only be delivered and retrieved from it at a certain rate and the older single core model CPUs could only actually do one thing at a time. By using its very high speed it could flick between jobs to make it appear it was doing lots of different things at once it actually wasn't. With very early desktop computers there would often be a turbo button which often enabled a maths processor, or increased the clock speed of the processor. These days having multi core CPUs is a much better solution but again leads to bottle neck problems to realise their true potential.
    Some companies are working on 80+ core CPUs and I have seen talk of 300 core CPUs in some computer magazines.

    Note most super computers use multiple CPUs to simulate multi core processing, but use multiple northbridge controller chips and multiple ram... so with 50 CPUs you also have 50 controller chips and 200+ RAM slots with 4 RAM slots per CPU.
    The test is to program software that takes advantage of this setup.

    They are often used in their second role as kind of marketing the brand of creator. Most of the time you don't need their raw computing power, and most of the time it is technologically not that difficult to make a system with more Tera flops than the one first in the TOP 500.

    In NZ someone made a super computer... and they made it out of about 2,000 Motorola chips from Amiga 500s. The chips were incredibly cheap and operate at about 7.14 Mhz which is pretty pathetic for CPUs, but with multiCPU systems it is more about throughput than actual speed.


    South koreans are bulding a shipyard in Russia? I didn't know about that. But again i highly doubt that they have some kind of innovative technology Russians don't have so that it will give them huge performance boost and time savings when building ships.

    It is management and modular construction techniques that the Koreans have over the Russians... and many other ship building countries.

    Read this: http://www.russiadefence.net/t861-new-shipyard-being-built-in-far-east-russia

    The problem is in japan. Japanese could be as well if they were not that dumb when it comes to Kuril islands matter. They are stubborn - and by the way most of the ordinary japanese people don't care. Its only the goverment making a huge fuss over it and ultranatitonalists. But then again ultranationalists in japan are again Koreans and against anybody else in Japan.

    I remember in the early 1990s one of the fears of the Hawks in the west was that Japan might trade its money and knowhow and join up with the Russians aerospace knowhow and really get into aircraft and space technology. Up until WWII the Japanese were as high tech as anyone when it came to aircraft. It was feared they might take the opportunity to regain that position with Russian tech and Japanese know how.

    At the same time the was a huge fear that all the manufacturers of the west would suddenly move into Eastern Europe to take advantage of the skilled workforce used to low wages.

    Neither really happened.

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    Russia's defence sector riddled with corruption

    Post  NationalRus on Tue May 24, 2011 9:58 pm

    Russia's defence sector riddled with corruption
    By Guy Faulconbridge, Reuters


    MOSCOW - A fifth of Russia’s state defence spending is stolen every year by corrupt officials, dishonest generals and crooked contractors, Russia’s chief military prosecutor said in an interview published on Tuesday.

    President Dmitry Medvedev says endemic corruption is holding back Russia’s development, but anti-bribery groups say the problem has become worse since Medvedev was steered into the Kremlin by his mentor Vladimir Putin in 2008.

    “Huge money is being stolen - practically every fifth rouble and the troops are still getting poor quality equipment and arms,” chief military prosecutor Sergei Fridinsky told Russia’s official gazette, Rossiiskaya Gazeta. “Every year more and more money is set aside for defence but the successes are not great,” he said, adding that kickbacks and fictitious contracts were being used to defraud the state.

    Fridinsky did not give specific figures, but Russia has set more than 1.5 trillion roubles ($53 billion) for national defence in its 2011 budget, indicating theft of more than $10 billion a year from the sector.

    While western countries roll back defence spending Putin has promised to spending nearly 20 trillion roubles over the next decade to renew the country’s rusting armaments with new submarines, nuclear missiles and air defence systems.

    Medvedev has repeatedly warned Russia’s notoriously corrupt defence sector to clean up its act and this month sacked several industry chiefs over what the Kremlin said were unfulfilled contracts.


    Russia is still the world’s second-largest arms exporter but its defence industry is riddled with corruption and thousands of young men each year try to bribe their way out of having to do their national service.

    Corruption is a way of life in Russia, from small bribes slipped into the pockets of traffic policemen or doctors to the vast kickbacks which investors say senior officials demand for access to state contracts in the natural resources sectors.

    Transparency International rated Russia joint 154th out of 178 nations in its corruption perceptions index last year, along with Cambodia, Kenya and Laos. It was Russia’s lowest ranking since the index began in 1995. In 2009 it was 146th.

    Russia was perceived to be more corrupt than any other member of the G8, G20 or even peers such as India, China and Brazil, which were ranked at 87th, 78th and 69th.

    When asked if he thought senior officials were involved in the corruption, Fridinsky said: “Work it out for yourself.

    http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2011/05/24/18184406.html
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    Viktor
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  Viktor on Wed May 25, 2011 12:06 pm

    Well good thing is those figures being said is smaller by each passing year. Im not really sure how much do they reflect efficiency of MIC in comparison with real corruption being present everywhere.
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 26, 2011 3:30 am

    The problem seems to be in most cases that the corruption goes up too high and all of a sudden the people chasing corruption suddenly get told by their bosses to back off.

    In many ways it is the whistle blowers that end up paying the biggest price and that is the opposite of what should be happening to sort out the problem.

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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  Pervius on Thu May 26, 2011 8:51 am

    American Defense Contractors will scour the globe for smart Engineers and promise them big wages.

    Then those people are brought into American with the H-x Visa Waiver Program. They are forced to have their wages deducted for Federal Taxes, Social Security, Medicare, then State Taxes. So they end up not really making the money they thought they were going to get.

    Total cost to get them to work for America instead of India= almost nothing.

    Noshir Gowadia was an Engineer brought from India into America and he worked on the B-2 bomber and other projects. India has been demanding America pay those workers Social Security benefits when they get old.....America's been saying tough luck. No Medicare or Social Security for you.

    Noshir Gowadia gave the B-2 Blueprints to China and other countries and also designed China some stealth cruise missiles. Ooopsie.

    But America did end up making the B-2 bomber for almost nothing. So when's Russia going to get smart and scour the globe for smart engineers to work for them and promise them huge wages? Then tax them out of wages and ditch them when the project is done??

    You have to admire America's creativity in making something for nothing. Russia lacks an Israel for creative financing techniques. America is making a killing right now killing it's own people. They have all these old people and they figured out how to make money off of them, even if it kills them.

    The Spine plastic cage project. They've been ripping their spine discs out by going into their sides and hammering a plastic spacer between their vertebrae then closing the patient up. They are billing insurance and patients for a full spine fusion even though they never bolted the vertebrae together. They are making big money crippling/killing their own. Getting rid of Government Liability and making lots of money at the same time.

    Citizens are expendable. America's been making +1 million foreigners new American citizens every year to keep up. Chaos Economics? No....they are smart. They are killing their own to make money.

    They adopted Adolph Hitlers medical practices and have been making poison medications. Vioxx, Bextra for example were all killing people causing heart attacks. Billions were made peddling those poisons onto their own people.

    Old Citizens are expendable....if you want a huge empire and want to take over the world.

    Russia never embraced such practices to create a massive economy. Therefor it can't keep up with the West.
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 26, 2011 1:43 pm

    Russia never embraced such practices to create a massive economy. Therefor it can't keep up with the West.

    If ignoring their elderly is "keeping up" then screw them... Russia does not need to embrace that.

    Russia doesn't need to be first or the best, what they need to focus on is being good enough to be safe from potential opponents, and making Russia a place people want to go to for a better life. Whether you actually let other people in is of course up to the people already there... Smile

    You can be successful without being number one... there is a lot of pain and sacrifice involve in becoming number one that simply isn't worth it morally and ethically.

    I hope Russia doesn't fall back into the same game of the Soviet Union... Russia doesn't need to push any product to the world... they don't need to sell any ideology.

    Just trade and be happy.
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  medo on Thu May 26, 2011 5:08 pm

    Russia in the opposite to other powers is not dependent to import anything. All they need, they have at home, water, food, energy, row materials, industry, etc. They don't need to invade any other country, only to defend their own territory. This is the point, where Russian philosophy, doctrine and strategy base.

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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  Pervius on Fri May 27, 2011 10:28 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Russia never embraced such practices to create a massive economy. Therefor it can't keep up with the West.

    If ignoring their elderly is "keeping up" then screw them... Russia does not need to embrace that.

    Russia doesn't need to be first or the best, what they need to focus on is being good enough to be safe from potential opponents, and making Russia a place people want to go to for a better life. Whether you actually let other people in is of course up to the people already there... Smile

    You can be successful without being number one... there is a lot of pain and sacrifice involve in becoming number one that simply isn't worth it morally and ethically.

    I hope Russia doesn't fall back into the same game of the Soviet Union... Russia doesn't need to push any product to the world... they don't need to sell any ideology.

    Just trade and be happy.




    Russia isn't happy with Trade. They are mad they are being blocked from the WTO and can't import wine from former Soviet Territory.

    Russia isn't successful because it didn't adopt the evil economics of America. America used the "Terrorist threat" to justify building new Joint Command structures for local and Federal police. They gave Billions to States to buy new radios, trucks, guns, and equipment as well. Was it for "Terrorists". Nope. It's to keep control over the populace. A new Nazi SS.

    The ideology America pushes is they will make money no matter what. Can you see America doing a deal with China to topple Russia down the road? Maybe promise China Russia's resources? As long as US Banks get in there they wouldn't mind if China controlled the Resources. I think that's where "Operation Odyssey Dawn" is headed.

    America had to guy full crazy and adopt their evil. Their Industrial Revolution resulted in extreme pollution to make a buck. They ended up with a populace having their very DNA destroyed.

    I was born in America dead, with a club foot, extra vertebrae, extra ribs. They fixed my club foot so I looked normal but my DNA is destroyed. Somebody said I needed to "introduce myself" here. Well there you have it.

    I don't bear a normal human DNA string. By 16 I had grey hairs. Reading medical journals it says that's a sign of neuro-degeneration. I made it over a decade in the military before the neuro-degeneration broke down my body. Maybe that's why everyone is having industry in China. They too will have their DNA destroyed from all the Dioxins and Toxins.

    We are not an intelligent species and are merely in a last ditch effort on who can build the newest most powerful thing yet to control Earth. God have pity on us if it's China. They are going to be pissed when they realize what we've done to them.

    I hope Russia DOES fall back into Soviet ideology. Unless someone in the world stands up for the human DNA string.....our future will have us with 3 fingers, grey skin, short, with big black eyes. Looking like those "grey aliens". They aren't aliens. They are what we are going to become.

    Iran will be the battleground to decide if the human DNA string will continue, or if we will perpetually destroy ourselves so somebody can make $$$$$.

    Only Soviet ideology will save mankind.

    Adolph Hitler was told human DNA is going to be destroyed and by whom. His rhetoric was used against him by those destroying the human DNA string. Russia could come out today and say the human DNA string has been destroyed. I think you'll find many in America would believe it....they KNOW.

    That is how the Holy War will also end. Bringing to light who's destroyed the human DNA string. Who ended God's work.
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 27, 2011 11:23 am

    Being outside the WTO allows Russian businesses to grow and get stronger, because while entering the WTO will greatly increase the available market for Russian goods, Russian companies will be going up against multinational business... the people who think of nothing about spending a billion on lobby groups and bribes to get the US to invade countries for their resources.

    People who make big government look morally sound.

    I live in a small country so I know what the WTO does.

    We used to have a clothing industry here... now it is rebranded as a fashion industry because all our clothes are made in China.

    We have a very strong dairy and sheep industry that continuously fights tooth an nail to get into markets that should be open like ours is but aren't.

    Our farmers don't get hundreds of Euros in subsidies per year to make little non viable farms viable.

    The US imposes limits on how much beef we can send to the US because apparently NZ farmers can produce better quality meat that is still competitive after having to be shipped all the way to the US... and unlike our clothing industry the US farmers have a government that will protect their interests despite being incredibly inefficient at what they do.

    Yeah... the WTO is a bag of laughs.

    BTW all this talk about god and DNA is really funny.

    If humans die out why would god care?

    It is not like he created the planet especially for us... there have been hundreds of mass extinctions in the last 4 billion years the Earth has existed and there will likely be plenty more before time is done.
    Compared to the clock of time the 2 million years homo sapien like animals have been on this planet is a fraction of the last second on a 24 hour clock... we weren't the first chosen life form and I bet we aren't the last.

    Human DNA changes with each pairing... I don't know what you mean by destroying it.
    About 70% of DNA is shared over most of the life forms on this planet, and more than 90% is shared with our primate cousins the Apes.

    My Anthropology lecturer had two questions that always p!ssed her off.

    Are we evolved from monkeys?

    And if we evolved from apes why are there still apes?

    The facts of the matter are that monkeys Apes and Man all have a common ancestor.

    Man didn't evolve from Apes or Monkeys, Man evolved from the same ancestor Apes and Monkeys evolved from.
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  NationalRus on Fri May 27, 2011 1:36 pm

    And if we evolved from apes why are there still apes?

    this will be now way offtopic but i know this question good lol1 , the favorit question for stupid beliver fags who are in my oppinon to stupid to deserve to live on planet earth and should be shot

    but here, "why are ther still monkeys on earth for dummies"

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    Russia signs off 2011 arms procurement deals

    Post  Russian Patriot on Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:41 pm

    Russia signs off 2011 arms procurement deals

    RIA Novosti

    15:12 01/09/2011 STAVROPOL, September 1 (RIA Novosti) - Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said he has signed all deals under an ambitious weapons procurement program except for one, following official criticism that the military was falling short of its annual plan.

    "The signings took place yesterday and the day before, there's only the contract with the United Shipbuilding Corporation that's left," Serdyukov told reporters on Thursday.

    Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin had instructed the ministry to conclude all deals under the procurement program for 2011 by September. The ministry has been criticized by the Kremlin for making slow progress on the program.

    Alexander Sukhorukov, the former head of the Russian arms procurement service Rosoboronzakaz, was appointed deputy defense minister by President Dmitry Medvedev earlier on Thursday.

    Sukhorukov will be overseeing an $730-billion procurement program through 2020.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/russia/2011/russia-110901-rianovosti01.htm
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    Competitiveness of Russian companies

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:47 am

    This is from the KBP website in the Russian language news section:

    Family members CBI, in which at least 3 children of preschool and school age, to receive financial assistance in the amount of profbyudzheta 1,500 rubles per student child. This 60 children from 32 families.

    This decision was taken in July, the company's trade union committee to help large families prepare for the new school year. On the proposal to allocate for this category of funds for the families better prepare children for the school year came the commission for trade union activities among women and children.

    The company has fully realized benefits package, including children's issues are resolved successfully. This is kindergarten, and monthly payments, and recreation. In all, 1880 employees of school and preschool children. In accordance with the collective agreement for each of them paid a monthly allowance of 850 rubles. Every summer for the organization of summer camps and recreation of children bought tickets to summer camps. And this year, after changes in the organization of leisure and recreation of children, trade union continues to help parents. Was purchased 70 tickets to a country summer camp "Space" area at Alexinsky II and III shift. In addition, children with their parents relax in the resort of Anapa "Black Sea" and on the basis of rest "Sunny Beach" Dubensky district. In total, this year will improve more than 500 children.

    To prepare for the new school year, school buildings patronized number 3 company was assisted in its repair in the amount of 400 thousand rubles.

    These sorts of hidden costs KBP takes on on its own volition... there are some western companies with such social programs, but these are often part of marketing strategies or "human resources" programs to keep the workers happy at otherwise being underpaid.

    Faced with the extra costs of properly looking after their workers many western companies simply move production offshore where they have no social responsibility for workers or their families and benefit from lower wages and much more lax safety requirements and that all goes to the bottom line... profit.

    Personally I like what KBP does, and the next time I am going to buy an ATGM I will look at their products first... thumbsup
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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

    Post  Kysusha on Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:54 am

    Regardless of how “competitive” Russian firms become – they are doomed because of the impossible manner in which ROSOBORONEXPORT conduct their business. This State Owned enterprise is the biggest impediment to Russian firms prospering that there is in the market.

    Until ROSOBORONEXPORT is radically over-hauled and they make it simpler to conduct business, Russian companies will always be at a disadvantage.

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    Re: Status of Russian Military Industrial Complex (MIC)

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