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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

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    Viktor
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Viktor on Sun May 11, 2014 11:44 am

    Looking good - finally  thumbsup 


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Flyingdutchman on Mon May 12, 2014 4:30 pm

    When will it be commisioned?

    George1
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:03 pm

    Flyingdutchman wrote:When will it be commisioned?

    the title still says 2012 Smile

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Vympel on Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:34 pm

    http://itar-tass.com/spb-news/1503433

    Second Ivan Gren class landing ship to be built.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  medo on Mon Oct 13, 2014 6:40 pm



    Slow progress, but I think after Mistral problems, they will speed up building.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Oct 13, 2014 6:47 pm

    medo wrote:

    Slow progress, but I think after Mistral problems, they will speed up building.

    As of now the RuNavy didn't want them in their current state, I think they're definitely waiting on the Mistral situation and how to apply modular techniques from the Mistral class to the Ivan Grens to make them more capable. So I think when things are all said and done by 2020's the Ivan Grens will be much more capable landing ships.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:41 pm

    i think also this thread's title also must change (Project 11711E "Ivan Gren"). 2012 has passed 2 years now..

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:16 am

    Russia Begins Work On New Landing Ship Amid US Concerns About Improvements To Russian Navy

    The Russian Navy large landing ship Yamal sets sail in the Bosphorus, on its way to the Aegean Sea, in Istanbul Sept. 13, 2014. Reuters/Murad Sezer

    The Russian navy has begun construction work on its latest landing vessel, the “Pyotr Morgunov,” in the country’s Kaliningrad Yantar shipyard, which is reportedly the only Russian dockyard situated in the southeast, in close proximity to Europe's large industrial centers.

    The “Pyotr Morgunov” landing ship is the second vessel commissioned by the Russian navy after “Ivan Gren,” which is the first ship to be built in the Yantar shipyard, Xinhua reported, adding that the “Ivan Gren” is expected to be ready by the end of 2015. The “Pyotr Morgunov” is scheduled to be delivered to the Russian navy by 2018, according to the terms of the contract. The ship will be built to carry up to 300 marines, 36 armored personnel carriers, 13 tanks and a Ka-29 helicopter, Xinhua reported.

    The latest development coincides with a statement from a member of the U.S. House of Representatives, saying that improvements to the Russian navy have been viewed with growing concern by the newly-elected U.S. Congress.

    “It's pretty clear that Mr. Putin is investing a lot in terms of recapitalizing his shipyards and his naval fleet,” Joe Courtney, a member of the House Armed Services subcommittee on Sea Power, told RIA Novosti on Thursday. “Frankly that's going to be a concern of our subcommittee.”

    According to Rob Wittman, chairman of the House Armed Services Subcommittee on Readiness, the U.S. has the world’s strongest navy, but other countries such as Russia and China are also making significant progress in strengthening their capabilities. Wittman added that the U.S. has to spend more resources on maintaining and modernizing its military forces to continue its dominant position in the sphere, RIA Novosti reported.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Big_Gazza on Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:02 pm

    George1 wrote:“It's pretty clear that Mr. Putin is investing a lot in terms of recapitalizing his shipyards and his naval fleet,” Joe Courtney, a member of the House Armed Services subcommittee on Sea Power, told RIA Novosti on Thursday. “Frankly that's going to be a concern of our subcommittee.”

    He can take his "concern" and shove it where the sun doesn't shine... Arrogant f#$@er...

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Firebird on Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:34 pm

    Wasn't the Navy unhappy with the way the doors opened on Gren, when it was landing?
    (ie leaving troops more exposed to attack).

    Could a Gren be modified to get round this issue? Or is that impossible?
    Does anyone know how the Gren is regarded now?

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:37 pm

    Firebird wrote:Wasn't the Navy unhappy with the way the doors opened on Gren, when it was landing?
    (ie leaving troops more exposed to attack).

    Could a Gren be modified to get round this issue? Or is that impossible?
    Does anyone know how the Gren is regarded now?

    i have the same questions, i also wonder when the 1st ivan gren will be at last delivered to the Russian Navy

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  kvs on Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:38 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    George1 wrote:“It's pretty clear that Mr. Putin is investing a lot in terms of recapitalizing his shipyards and his naval fleet,” Joe Courtney, a member of the House Armed Services subcommittee on Sea Power, told RIA Novosti on Thursday. “Frankly that's going to be a concern of our subcommittee.”

    He can take his "concern" and shove it where the sun doesn't shine...  Arrogant f#$@er...

    The Imperial US Congress thinks it has the right to rule the world. No one other than the Empire is allowed to have a powerful army and navy.
    Russia should ignore these yaps outright. They could not bring down the USSR with all their "might" and they will not be able to bring down
    Russia. The USSR collapsed because it was an absurdity that stifled the potential of its constituent republics. Russia will not experience any
    similar collapse and that is rather obvious. But not to these verminous imperialists in the USA who think they can collapse Russia with some
    VOA, NED and military spending BS. Good luck, 'tards.


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:01 am

    My understanding was that most of the objections to the Gren was that it was not an ocean going vessel with any level of endurance, so it could only carry small forces over relatively short distances and could not support them for long deployments.


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  kvs on Sat Dec 06, 2014 4:15 pm

    GarryB wrote:My understanding was that most of the objections to the Gren was that it was not an ocean going vessel with any level of endurance, so it could only carry small forces over relatively short distances and could not support them for long deployments.

    The only way this would be correct is if its loading "door" was very crappy so it would flood under high seas. Perhaps this is true but I cannot see how
    the rest of the ship is not sea worthy. It's not like they skimped on metal and made it flimsy.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:26 am

    No you misunderstand.

    What they mean by not an ocean going vessel is that it doesn't have the storage capacity to carry its main payload plus all the extras like fuel and ammo and food to continue to support the payload of men and equipment for days or weeks.

    In other words the men and vehicles get on the ship and must be delivered to where ever they intend to attack fairly quickly and then the vessel will withdraw and likely collect another load of troops and equipment to support the attack.

    I also got the impression they would have preferred more than one helo to increase the rate at which men and vehicles and equipment can be put ashore.

    The Imperial US Congress thinks it has the right to rule the world.

    Worse than that... they think the world is better off with "Them in charge" and in fact we all want them to take control of everything because they know better than we do about what we need or want.

    We poor ignorant savages need to be led and if we don't want what they are offering it is only because we are too ignorant to know what is best for us. The same attitude led to Russian Orphans being sent to the US because even if the father is a paedophile the child will still have a better life in the US than they could ever have in Russia... even if the child dies of neglect or abuse it would be better than being brought up in Russia... (Something I obviously disagree with...)


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    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  kvs on Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:32 pm

    GarryB wrote:No you misunderstand.

    What they mean by not an ocean going vessel is that it doesn't have the storage capacity to carry its main payload plus all the extras like fuel and ammo and food to continue to support the payload of men and equipment for days or weeks.

    In other words the men and vehicles get on the ship and must be delivered to where ever they intend to attack fairly quickly and then the vessel will withdraw and likely collect another load of troops and equipment to support the attack.

    I also got the impression they would have preferred more than one helo to increase the rate at which men and vehicles and equipment can be put ashore.

    The Imperial US Congress thinks it has the right to rule the world.

    Worse than that... they think the world is better off with "Them in charge" and in fact we all want them to take control of everything because they know better than we do about what we need or want.

    We poor ignorant savages need to be led and if we don't want what they are offering it is only because we are too ignorant to know what is best for us. The same attitude led to Russian Orphans being sent to the US because even if the father is a paedophile the child will still have a better life in the US than they could ever have in Russia...  even if the child dies of neglect or abuse it would be better than being brought up in Russia...   (Something I obviously disagree with...)


    Thanks for the clarification. If they do not have a single ship with all the capacity they would need several support ships as part of a "task force".
    I cannot think of any other landing ships fielded by any navy that are self-sufficient. But I may be sadly mistaken.

    Anyway, Russia does not have the desire to field a 3rd world suppression force navy like the USA. That is why Russia is not in a hurry to build
    aircraft carriers and even the USSR did not build the enormous ones that the US did. The Mistral deal looks bizarre to me. Why does Russia
    need helicopter carriers? I do not see the purpose of sailing the oceans with Mistrals for Russia. Maybe they could have one in the Black Sea.

    With the US trying to restart a more intense version of the cold war with Russia there may some reason for a conventional build up. But I think
    that nuclear missiles of all types should be the priority. There should be no room for conventional combat yielded. Tactical nukes should be
    used from the get go. The planners in Washington cannot be allowed to think they will have a war on their terms.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:36 pm

    kvs wrote:
    GarryB wrote:No you misunderstand.

    What they mean by not an ocean going vessel is that it doesn't have the storage capacity to carry its main payload plus all the extras like fuel and ammo and food to continue to support the payload of men and equipment for days or weeks.

    In other words the men and vehicles get on the ship and must be delivered to where ever they intend to attack fairly quickly and then the vessel will withdraw and likely collect another load of troops and equipment to support the attack.

    I also got the impression they would have preferred more than one helo to increase the rate at which men and vehicles and equipment can be put ashore.

    The Imperial US Congress thinks it has the right to rule the world.

    Worse than that... they think the world is better off with "Them in charge" and in fact we all want them to take control of everything because they know better than we do about what we need or want.

    We poor ignorant savages need to be led and if we don't want what they are offering it is only because we are too ignorant to know what is best for us. The same attitude led to Russian Orphans being sent to the US because even if the father is a paedophile the child will still have a better life in the US than they could ever have in Russia...  even if the child dies of neglect or abuse it would be better than being brought up in Russia...   (Something I obviously disagree with...)


    Thanks for the clarification.  If they do not have a single ship with all the capacity they would need several support ships as part of a "task force".    
    I cannot think of any other landing ships fielded by any navy that are self-sufficient.  But I may be sadly mistaken.  

    Anyway, Russia does not have the desire to field a 3rd world suppression force navy like the USA.   That is why Russia is not in a hurry to build
    aircraft carriers and even the USSR did not build the enormous ones that the US did.   The Mistral deal looks bizarre to me.   Why does Russia
    need helicopter carriers?   I do not see the purpose of sailing the oceans with Mistrals for Russia.   Maybe they could have one in the Black Sea.

    With the US trying to restart a more intense version of the cold war with Russia there may some reason for a conventional build up.  But I think
    that nuclear missiles of all types should be the priority.   There should be no room for conventional combat yielded.   Tactical nukes should be
    used from the get go.   The planners in Washington cannot be allowed to think they will have a war on their terms.

    I think Ivan Gren ships are good solution for black sea regional conflicts. You dont need mistral to transport troops in crimea or abhazia

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:02 am

    Don't get me wrong, the Grens aren't bad ships and will suit many of Russias needs... all they needed was to be slightly bigger so that in addition to carrying x number of men and x number of vehicles and x amount of food and ammo, that they could carry more food and more ammo so that they could deliver their payload of men and vehicles and equipment but also with extra food and ammo so they could support operations when the force goes ashore for longer.

    I think it is not the case that the Russians want to invade africa or the middle east,but increasing and expanding their ability to send troops further afield seems to be something they desire.

    Remember in 1982 the British were able to send a sizable force to the south atlantic to defend their interests... even at the time the Soviets would have been hard pressed to do the same.

    It seems their future plans are for smaller more powerful force projection... sending in small special forces units solves one range of problems and launching conventional cruise missile attacks solves several others but in the end having some ocean going landing ships with Mistral providing helo support and perhaps a fixed wing carrier like the Kuznetsov would represent a significant force.

    I doubt they want the US Navy performance or size or cost, but I suspect they might want the sort of capabilities the British had.

    A stronger ocean going navy would be useful to offer confidence to other allies like Venezuela and Cuba and of course India and Vietnam etc and also potential allies like South Africa and Brazil etc.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  kvs on Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:31 am

    One of the "Russia stronk" members of the NATO butthurt forum proposed that Russia buy South Korean Dokdos.





    Getting several of these for the price of one non-delivered Mistral seems like a much better idea.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  sepheronx on Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:44 am

    Or simply buy their own. I bet they can do it. Unless S.Korea offers Russia to build it themselves.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:38 am

    They already have production experience with the Mistral... these are not something that is super complicated... they can substitute their own technology and systems into the design and build their own without licence. they were only going to have the first ship with NATO sensors and electronics... the other one or three were to have sigma BMS and Russian sensors. All four vessels would have Russian aircraft, vehicles and weapons too.


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    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  medo on Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:03 pm

    kvs wrote:One of the "Russia stronk" members of the NATO butthurt forum proposed that Russia buy South Korean Dokdos.





    Getting several of these for the price of one non-delivered Mistral seems like a much better idea.

    It would be good to buy a license for Dokdos and modify them for Russian needs and build them in Russian shipyards. As Dokdo is smaller than Mistral, they could replace 1 Mistral with 2 Dokdo ships.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Werewolf on Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:49 pm

    Or for all sakes design an own one, that terminates all problems and adds just some costs and time, but seeing that France like all EU countries and South Korea is also a bitch of the US this will be just a deal signed and later not fullfiled just to steal russia time and money which the west wants so badly.

    Russia should and must design their own stuff, this is not a question if they could, because they can without problems this is just a question of time and little bit more money.
    They can design it to all their needs and making no compromises in design arrangement to meet all requirements and pay their own companies and workers and support their own economy also that also is a question of proudness not to buy other countries stuff when they are having a great MIC themselfs.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Viktor on Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:00 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Or for all sakes design an own one, that terminates all problems and adds just some costs and time, but seeing that France like all EU countries and South Korea is also a bitch of the US this will be just a deal signed and later not fullfiled just to steal russia time and money which the west wants so badly.

    Russia should and must design their own stuff, this is not a question if they could, because they can without problems this is just a question of time and little bit more money.
    They can design it to all their needs and making no compromises in design arrangement to meet all requirements and pay their own companies and workers and support their own economy also that also is a question of proudness not to buy other countries stuff when they are having a great MIC themselfs.

    Its like Rogozin heard you Very Happy

    Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said that Russia will build a fleet of only themselves.
    "His fleet will build themselves and only themselves," - he wrote Tuesday in his microblog on Twitter

    LINK

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TR1 on Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:23 pm

    Rogozin tweeting populist BS out of his ass, thats new!

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