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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:28 pm

    marat wrote:
    Isos wrote:

    That ship design is from 1944, what the hell have you been smoking?

    Hydroplanes? Seriously?

    Not hydroplane but seaplane.

    Why not. A flying radar will always be a bonus for a ship. A new one could have a range of 1000km and cruise speed of 400-500 km/h and piloted by a man.

    You have some example of such practice in last 70 years? Does that tell you something about that practice?


    Because US and Nato don't operate such aircraft it means it's worthless ?

    Btw Russia wants to equip its Gorshkovs with orlan drones with a catapult to launch them. A bigger cruiser will have something bigger so this idea is close to what they are doing. The good point is that it would be a maned aircraft rather than a stupid drone.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:18 pm

    Isos wrote:
    marat wrote:
    Isos wrote:

    That ship design is from 1944, what the hell have you been smoking?

    Hydroplanes? Seriously?

    Not hydroplane but seaplane.

    Why not. A flying radar will always be a bonus for a ship. A new one could have a range of 1000km and cruise speed of 400-500 km/h and piloted by a man.

    You have some example of such practice in last 70 years? Does that tell you something about that practice?


    Because US and Nato don't operate such aircraft it means it's worthless ?

    Btw Russia wants to equip its Gorshkovs with orlan drones with a catapult to launch them. A bigger cruiser will have something bigger so this idea is close to what they are doing. The good point is that it would be a maned aircraft rather than a stupid drone.


    US and NATO don't operate them for a reason, it's obsolete and they have far superior stuff

    And only reason Russia is stuck with Orlans on Gorshkovs is because they don't have anything better

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:50 pm


    US and NATO don't operate them for a reason, it's obsolete and they have far superior stuff

    And only reason Russia is stuck with Orlans on Gorshkovs is because they don't have anything better

    Yeah because US have carriers and hundreds of bases around the world here they can put P-8.

    The rest of Nato forces depend on them. Take out US navy from the equation and they are fucked. Such aircraft with a small kh-35 would be a threat to most of nato ships as they are underarmed for the most.

    Russia doesn't have neither the carriers, neither the bases and they clearly wish to sail around the world. Such aircraft would be helpful for them.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:19 pm

    Isos wrote:.... Such aircraft with a small kh-35 would be a threat to most of nato ships as they are underarmed for the most.

    Russia doesn't have neither the carriers, neither the bases and they clearly wish to sail around the world. Such aircraft would be helpful for them.


    This weighs less than Kh-35 and are it's helpful for sightseeing tours in vacation resorts

    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 27 Photo-1504979489322-bfab450b252d?ixlib=rb-1.2

    Stop talking nonsense

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:59 pm

    I said a smaller kh-35. Kh-35 weights 500kg. A smaller one with smaller range and warhead would be 200kg.

    You took the smallest one as your exemple but there are others that can carry 10 passengers and have a decent range. So it could instead carry a small antiship missile and a radar. A military version could use more powerfull engines and more fuel.

    And even without weapons, add a radar to that plane and it can patrol and look for ships and transmit data back to its ship.

    On helicipter carrier, a normal version with wheels could be used pretty easily and be vigger and faster.


    For exemple : Cessna 208 Caravan

    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 27 Destin10

    Empty weight 1,725 t

    Max take off weight 3,31 t

    Cargo 1 360 kg

    Cruise speed 340km/h

    Range. 1759 km/ 2 = 900km


    Take off the seats and all the civilian equipment add a radar of 100kg, a fuel tank of 200-300kg to add range and you still have 900 kg for weapons.
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Aug 24, 2019 1:59 am

    Isos wrote:I said a smaller kh-35. Kh-35 weights 500kg. A smaller one with smaller range and warhead would be 200kg.

    You took the smallest one as your exemple but there are others that can carry 10 passengers and have a decent range. So it could instead carry a small antiship missile and a radar. A military version could use more powerfull engines and more fuel.

    And even without weapons, add a radar to that plane and it can patrol and look for ships and transmit data back to its ship.

    On helicipter carrier, a normal version with wheels could be used pretty easily and be vigger and faster.


    For exemple : Cessna 208 Caravan

    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 27 Destin10

    Empty weight 1,725 t

    Max take off weight 3,31 t

    Cargo 1 360 kg

    Cruise speed 340km/h

    Range. 1759 km/ 2 = 900km


    Take off the seats and all the civilian equipment add a radar of 100kg, a fuel tank of 200-300kg to add range and you still have 900 kg for weapons.


    Brilliant idea that one lol1


    Looks like Russian developers are already on the job, here is concept art of next gen system with similar approach:

    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 27 Cockpit-bombadier


    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:34 am

    Actually the new model An-2 in a float plane variant would be interesting... it has very low stall speeds and a good payload and takeoff and landing performance...

    But at the end of the day I would think a rigid airship would be even better in many ways.

    Enormous space for radar antenna arrays... it could operate on a tether continuously... even attached to quite a small ship... the tether could include a fibre optic cable for extremely fast data transfer and could also include electrical power to run the radar and position keeping electric motors... and with some hydrogen fuel cells on board it can rapidly generate lifting gas or ballast water as needed.

    You could develop a tether link that is modular and could be fitted to all new and upgraded Russian vessels so it could operate on its own or move between vessels depending upon need.

    As mentioned with an airship 40-50m long the antenna array could be huge and superimposed... so you could have a variety of frequency range radar antenna built in to the airships structure, so like some land based radars they use they could have a range of radars that aircraft are simply not big enough to carry with an array size big enough to be rather more useful...

    The Tu-142 has a 3km long cable antenna for ultra low frequency communications with Subs under water at reasonable depths... a problem is that it is most effective when it hangs vertically, which requires the aircraft to fly at very low speeds close to stall speed... and airship could easily have such antenna, and others besides...
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 24, 2019 2:38 am

    Looks like Russian developers are already on the job, here is concept art of next gen system with similar approach:

    Of course... it is the wests way or the highway... all alternative thought is ridiculed... I remember well British tank experts going on and on about the stupidity of the Soviets using smoothbore tank guns because they are inaccurate, or first mention of rocket propelled torpedoes, or indeed missiles fired through tank gun barrels... it was all doomed to fail because it wasn't the way the west did things... they had either tried and failed or had not even tried so there was no point, and the soviets even trying was proof of their stupidity and backwardness...
    PapaDragon
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Aug 24, 2019 3:24 am


    Should one day Russian Military start giving bags of feces to troops instead of food I am sure that quite a few people on this forum will be praising that move as revolutionary Russian development in the field of nutritional science...


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    marat

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    Post  marat on Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:09 am

    Isos wrote:
    marat wrote:
    Isos wrote:

    That ship design is from 1944, what the hell have you been smoking?

    Hydroplanes? Seriously?

    Not hydroplane but seaplane.

    Why not. A flying radar will always be a bonus for a ship. A new one could have a range of 1000km and cruise speed of 400-500 km/h and piloted by a man.

    You have some example of such practice in last 70 years? Does that tell you something about that practice?


    Because US and Nato don't operate such aircraft it means it's worthless ?

    Btw Russia wants to equip its Gorshkovs with orlan drones with a catapult to launch them. A bigger cruiser will have something bigger so this idea is close to what they are doing. The good point is that it would be a maned aircraft rather than a stupid drone.

    Did i mentioned USA od NATO? Why RuNavy or Chinese or any other navy introduced such concept?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:45 am

    Because Russia was building only smaller ships until now. China is not doing anything new, its destroyers are normal and look like US ones. Nothing revolutionary and they are not an exemple at all.

    No one else build big destroyers or cruisers. Japan and south korea have the f-35 for their helicopter carrier so they can patrol around with them. And they mainly use their navy around their country supported by their shore based patrol aircraft.

    Russia plans to sail around the world where it has no land airbases to support the fleet. The small amount of helicopters its task forces will carry will be busy with US submarines. A small patrol aircraft can help look for ships and give mid course correction to missiles.

    It's very good to have oniks and zirkon with 1000km range but if you don't know where the target is, their range is reduced to the 40km of the ship based radar.

    You adapt to your situation. You don't just copy what others do.
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    marat

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    Post  marat on Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:45 pm

    Isos wrote:Because Russia was building only smaller ships until now. China is not doing anything new, its destroyers are normal and look like US ones. Nothing revolutionary and they are not an exemple at all.

    No one else build big destroyers or cruisers. Japan and south korea have the f-35 for their helicopter carrier so they can patrol around with them. And they mainly use their navy around their country supported by their shore based patrol aircraft.

    Russia plans to sail around the world where it has no land airbases to support the fleet. The small amount of helicopters its task forces will carry will be busy with US submarines. A small patrol aircraft can help look for ships and give mid course correction to missiles.

    It's very good to have oniks and zirkon with 1000km range but if you don't know where the target is, their range is reduced to the 40km of the ship based radar.

    You adapt to your situation. You don't just copy what others do.

    Kirov is smaller ship? Or ship with hydroplane? Moscow Class was small as well?
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:54 pm

    Kirov is smaller ship? Or ship with hydroplane? Moscow Class was small as well?

    It was build for USSR needs and they had plenty of airbases around the world and plenty of ships and subs and heli carriers to defend their task forces anywhere in the world.

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:29 am

    Should one day Russian Military start giving bags of feces to troops instead of food I am sure that quite a few people on this forum will be praising that move as revolutionary Russian development in the field of nutritional science...

    The Russians wont adopt MREs... that is American... I believe they are called Meals Rejected by Ethiopians...

    The fact that you suggest the Russian military might hand out bags of shit instead of food shows more about you really.

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