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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:59 pm

    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 26 022010
    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 26 022311
    On the Ropucha class some quarters are located in the middle section, on both sides of the loading deck.
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    Post  hoom on Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:17 pm

    Yeah thats a lot of berths in a small volume.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:36 pm

    Well, of course it will be not as comfortable as in the french mistral class. I remember reading some articles describing the crew accomodation (sailors and.NCO, not.only those of commissioned officers) and saying that in comparison with soviet and russian ships, they were quite large and luxurious.

    Mistral class is however, a peace time ship, and it is not optimised for military capabilities.

    After seeing the what the russian propose to do with a 8000tons LST, I am really interested in getting acquainted with.their project for a proper 24K+tons helicopter assault ship
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:42 pm

    For landing operations around Kurils and baltic sea they don't need the best of the best accomodations.
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:42 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Well, of course it will be not as comfortable as in the french mistral class. I remember reading some articles describing the crew accomodation (sailors and.NCO, not.only those of commissioned officers) and saying that in comparison with soviet and russian ships, they were quite large and luxurious.

    Mistral class is however, a peace time ship, and it is not optimised for military capabilities.

    After seeing the what the russian propose to do with a  8000tons LST, I am really interested in getting acquainted with.their project for a proper 24K+tons helicopter assault ship

    Wouldn't call Mistral a peacetime ship, the biggest one has more than enough room to deploy a good sized force and nice deck size for helios which is everything you wanted it for. Plus it has nice support facilities.

    Shame the Russians didn't get those, then again was silly to try and order them off a NATO ally anyways.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:08 pm

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Well, of course it will be not as comfortable as in the french mistral class. I remember reading some articles describing the crew accomodation (sailors and.NCO, not.only those of commissioned officers) and saying that in comparison with soviet and russian ships, they were quite large and luxurious.

    Mistral class is however, a peace time ship, and it is not optimised for military capabilities.

    After seeing the what the russian propose to do with a  8000tons LST, I am really interested in getting acquainted with.their project for a proper 24K+tons helicopter assault ship

    Wouldn't call Mistral a peacetime ship, the biggest one has more than enough room to deploy a good sized force and nice deck size for helios which is everything you wanted it for. Plus it has nice support facilities.

    Shame the Russians didn't get those, then again was silly to try and order them off a NATO ally anyways.

    In addition to having poor air defence mistral ships are built to commercial standards and not military standard. That was done to build them in short time and save money. However they have not the same damage control capabilities of a "real" naval ship
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    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:31 am


    Detailed description of new Ivan Gren-class in this video, can some Russian speaker write down fresh info?


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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:44 am

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:
    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:Well, of course it will be not as comfortable as in the french mistral class. I remember reading some articles describing the crew accomodation (sailors and.NCO, not.only those of commissioned officers) and saying that in comparison with soviet and russian ships, they were quite large and luxurious.

    Mistral class is however, a peace time ship, and it is not optimised for military capabilities.

    After seeing the what the russian propose to do with a  8000tons LST, I am really interested in getting acquainted with.their project for a proper 24K+tons helicopter assault ship

    Wouldn't call Mistral a peacetime ship, the biggest one has more than enough room to deploy a good sized force and nice deck size for helios which is everything you wanted it for. Plus it has nice support facilities.

    Shame the Russians didn't get those, then again was silly to try and order them off a NATO ally anyways.

    In addition to having poor air defence mistral ships are built to commercial standards and not military standard. That was done to build them in short time and save money. However they have not the same damage control capabilities of a "real" naval ship

    The damage control capabilities argument really doesn't work with these kinda ships, the hulls are huge open sections in them regardless which makes sealing off the bulkheads pretty much not possible.

    They have weak AD yeah, but that's what escorts are for.
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    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:16 am

    Mistral was a NATO ship, which traditionally are under armed because they don't expect resistance from the third world countries they invade.

    A Russian design equivalent will have rather better armament...
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    Post  Gazputin on Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:40 pm

    yeah definitely

    its common knowledge that Australia's 2x Canberra class ships have one purpose ….
    to stop Pacific Is nations becoming failed states … and hence havens for terrorists and "unfriendly" States etc
    the USA delegated the responsibility to us … "there ya go buddy !"

    they are not "warships"
    they are pretty much grey coloured commercial car carriers …. as used by Toyota etc
    if you see one …. seriously if you shot at it …. even with your eyes closed …. you couldn't miss
    massive slab-sided …. sitting ducks

    on the positive side they can be very good for humanitarian disaster type stuff as floating hospitals etc
    that's why most Aussies support them ….

    not unlike our C-17s …. you see them everywhere doing humanitarian relief …. they were even up in Nepal a few years ago
    same deal …. most Aussies think they are good value too …. being multi-functional

    guess this is a general trend everywhere …. military hardware having variable uses in peace time
    eg all the ships now with "containerised" systems ….

    who knows we have to despatch our "carriers" to "assist" New Zealand one day …. lol lol lol






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    Post  Gazputin on Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:02 pm

    according to AINonline

    the new ship can fit 4x Ka-29
    vs previous 2 ……

    seem to be in deck level hangar ?
    can't see a lift ….

    I wouldn't bother with Ka-52 either …. why does a contra rotating chopper need such a long tail anyway ?
    I don't get it ….

    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2019-07-29/russia-resurrects-stored-ka-29s

    anyway … just a stepping stone …. to something bigger …. and this shipyard can't do anything bigger

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:11 pm

    Your link is.interesting. it also mention that they could.consider restoring the only surviving Project 1174 ship (Alexander Nikolayev) back into an operational condition.
    I remember that they announced they wanted to recycle it, in 2016... not clear what its fate will be.

    Btw, this article from 2012 shows how much navy priorities changed.


    https://www.rt.com/news/russian-biggest-landing-ship-862/




    Modernization of the landing ship ‘Mitrofan Moskalenko’ has been considered unpractical for economic reasons, also the ship is morally and physically outdated,” a source in Russian Navy told the Izvestia newspaper. “The cost of its modernization is equal to construction of at least two small artillery ships.”

    “Also, [the] ship’s necessity is questionable from a strategic point of view. Russia does not plan to land seaborne troops anywhere,” the source said.

    It is ridiculous to say that ships of this class had no strategic role in russian operations.

    It may be true that it could be preferrable to spend money in new modern ships with similar or better characteristics, but comparing the cost of modernising a large landing ship with a full loaded displacement of 14000 tons with the building of a couple of 500 tons artillery ships is absurd and laughable.

    Anyway, the new modified ivan gren should cover this role, and in addition there will be the new large amphibious assault ship/helicopter carrier with more than 20ktons displacement

    Concerning the shipyard, yeah the ivan rogov had the max possible size for a ship built in Yantar (Kaliningrad) It is not clear if there are plan for enlarging and modernising this shipyard... maybe after they finish the work with severnaya verf. Btw the new amphibious assault ship should be built by severnaya verf after its modernisation, that will allow larger ships to be built (otherwise the Baltic shipyard (also in saint Petersburg) and Zaliv (in Kerch, Crimea) could cope with large ships construction.
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    Post  Gazputin on Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:41 pm

    who actually uses ships like this ?
    they seem useful re Tartus base in Syria and Kalinigrad in the Baltic …

    why not bring the older design back ? …. its pretty big ….

    in the future
    I'd be tempted to build ships which are similar to Mil-24/35 choppers
    a warship front end …. and a hovercraft landing capability and air assault team in the back ….

    a bit of both ….. fairly autonomous …
    EU/NATO has these fairly defenseless heli-carriers … and surround them with air defence destroyers etc
    can Russia afford to waste money like that ? with such massive borders

    I'd be tempted to do an ice class hybrid ship
    destroyer type front end …. heli-carrier rear …..
    around 200m ….. it would be a beast …. with subs nearby

    and with modern UAV progress ... like that Fregat VTOL UAV ….. you have a nice option

    who says NATO has it right ?


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    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:00 pm

    I wouldn't bother with Ka-52 either …. why does a contra rotating chopper need such a long tail anyway ?

    It doesn't... during one test a Ka-50 was flown to about 300m away from a Shilka and a 200 round burst was fired at the aircraft... blew the tail right off but it was still able to be remotely flown back to base.

    In normal operations the tail offers directional stability to improve flight speed and stability.

    who actually uses ships like this ?
    they seem useful re Tartus base in Syria and Kalinigrad in the Baltic …

    why not bring the older design back ? …. its pretty big ….

    By older design do you mean the Ivan Rogov?

    These ships will be used by the Russian Naval Infantry, and will be used like they were in Georgia in 2008 and potentially in and around the Kuriles near Japan, but also in the Russian Arctic.

    The plans were for the eventually four Mistral ships to be based in the northern fleet and the pacific (two each)... to support Infantry ops in the arctic and pacific region... and of course further afield.

    in the future
    I'd be tempted to build ships which are similar to Mil-24/35 choppers
    a warship front end …. and a hovercraft landing capability and air assault team in the back ….

    Nothing more dangerous on a ship than a tail rotor... helicopters tend to prefer to keep their noses pointed into the wind to make maintaining position easier... a change in direction means swinging around a deadly set of rotor blades on a cramped restricted deck area... very dangerous.

    a bit of both ….. fairly autonomous …
    EU/NATO has these fairly defenseless heli-carriers … and surround them with air defence destroyers etc
    can Russia afford to waste money like that ? with such massive borders

    During landing operations helicopters are invaluable... whether it is military landing ops or disaster or famine relief ops... having lots of helicopters is key.

    And every Russian vessel needs to be able to defend itself... no exceptions.

    I'd be tempted to do an ice class hybrid ship
    destroyer type front end …. heli-carrier rear …..
    around 200m ….. it would be a beast …. with subs nearby

    Well their current frigate design has a heli deck to the rear... perhaps only one Helix size helo but potentially more unmanned smaller models or Ka-226T modular versions... I suspect destroyer and cruiser sized vessels will also have a significant aircraft component including UAVs of various types.
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    Post  wilhelm on Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:55 pm

    Does anyone have recent pics or info on the two Ivan Rogov vessels? The Mitrofan Moskalenko and Aleksandr Nikolayev.
    From what I can gather, their sale/disposal was stopped after the Mistral saga, and consideration was given to their reactivation.
    I have heard that they either one or both will be refurbished? But also that it wasn't worth refurbishing them..depending on the source.
    I read somewhere that there was a fire on the Mitrofan Moskalenko at Severomorsk 2 months ago, so it is obvious both are still in existence.
    And every now and then, reports resurface about reactivation.
    The most recent pics i can find are from a few years ago.
    Any pics or further hard actual news beyond speculation?
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    Post  Isos on Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:06 am

    I'd be tempted to do an ice class hybrid ship
    destroyer type front end …. heli-carrier rear …..
    around 200m ….. it would be a beast …. with subs nearby

    They thought about it long before you  Very Happy but it wasn't for landing ops.

    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 26 280px-11
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:10 am

    Isos wrote:
    I'd be tempted to do an ice class hybrid ship
    destroyer type front end …. heli-carrier rear …..
    around 200m ….. it would be a beast …. with subs nearby

    They thought about it long before you  Very Happy but it wasn't for landing ops.

    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 26 280px-11


    Moskva class?
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    Post  Isos on Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:11 am

    Yes
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    Post  George1 on Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:00 am

    Ι found this info for Ivan Gren readiness


    "Ivan Gren": the sea is calling

    The sea is calling, but can’t get through - BDK "Ivan Gren", lead ship of the first series of project 11711, one of the few new naval units of the Russian Navy equipped with a gunstock, after 14 months from the date of raising the St. Andrew’s flag, is still not included in the permanent readiness forces Northern Fleet. The current situation would be understandable and acceptable if it was a question of technically complex facilities such as the AICR Project 885M or FR Project 22350, and not a sea transport vessel with a minimal armament. The material published in the SF newspaper “On guard of the Arctic” No. 30 dated 08/09/2019 makes an attempt to explain why the newest paratrooper is still out of work, as well as provide interesting facts regarding his BC-5. I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the text of this article, set out with minor bills, stylistic changes and brief comments by the author of the blog.

    At the LST "Ivan Gren " trial operation continues.

    Recently, a year has passed since the large landing ship Ivan Gren was accepted into the Russian Navy [06/20/2018]. What happened to the ship and its crew during this period? In October 2018, Gren moved from the Baltic to the North [15−22.10] and became part of the Northern Fleet. With the arrival at the [permanent] basing point, the pilot operation of the BDK in the conditions of the Arctic began.

    Trial operation is a special period in the life of a ship [not of every ship], during which the crew independently masters the material part. The purpose of this process is to organize and conduct tests that before this could not be performed for objective reasons. In this case, we are talking about checking the operation of the systems and mechanisms of the latest BDK in the conditions of the [extreme] North.

    Commander of the BS-5 (electromechanical combatparts), captain of 3rd rank: "The point is to gain experience on these systems. Identify deficiencies, develop suggestions for shipbuilders to develop optimal ways to eliminate them, make changes, prevent repeated errors in subsequent ships of the project and adapt the ship to Arctic conditions "...

    Understanding this, the crew of "Ivan Gren" with particular zeal relates to the study of the material part. Currently, according to the commander of the warhead-5, the ship is in the final stages of preparation for going to sea to carry out a state test program. In August, it is planned to end the trial operation of the bow and stern landing devices, and to verify their operation. The personnel are faced with the task of conducting tests to receive landing equipment from the unequipped coast at the Northern Maritime Theater.

    To learn and master is what. The BDK is simply crammed with modern weapons and military equipment [?!], Sensors, electronics. Chief mechanic: “The ship has great potential. It’s just the head one, and, as it happens in such cases, we [from time to time] stumble over something. The location of some systems is interesting, [sometimes] it’s difficult to understand why the designers made such decisions, but there are no problems with the material part, the personnel are developing a new ship with interest. Optimization due to automation.

    For example, the engine rooms (bow and stern) are maintenance-free. Shifts are not provided, only inspection once every two hours during the tour. And all the parameters (pressure in the oil, fuel, cooling systems, temperature in each cylinder of the engines) are displayed on the control panel in the power and survivability post (PES). This is where the sailors keep watch. Automatic control - we set the stroke parameters, and the system supports them. Manual control is also provided. The second console at the post is the electric power system (four diesel generators that can be launched from this console). "

    The hold system is also all automatic, the main valves are controlled from the remote control. To drain a tank or pump water, you just need to press a few buttons - choose a pump and a place to download (all in automatic mode). The ventilation system and fire lines work in a similar way. As for the explosion and fire safety of the ship, then there were some innovations. Everywhere doors with automatic closers and magnets are installed. Everything is designed so that if a fire alarm is triggered, then the magnets lose power and the fireproof doors close under their own weight, providing localization of the fire. However, they are not blocked - you can open the door manually, although you will have to make an effort.

    Commander of the BS-5: “In case of real danger, the emergency party will be able to reach the source of ignition and ensure its elimination. If the automatic system fails, the watch officer after inspection will restart everything and turn on the magnets. Starting the fire pump and the volumetric chemical fire extinguishing (OXT) system, foam extinguishing stations - you can start everything with a single button. The drainage system also - in automatic mode, it is possible to drain the premises by pumping water overboard. "

    In the commander’s commander’s cabin, a special automatic control system for the control unit was installed. Absolutely all parameters of the ship’s systems and mechanisms are displayed there, so the officer can control the situation "without leaving home." For the posts of the watch engineer-mechanic and commander of the warhead, special software has been developed that monitors and controls ...

    Commander of the BS-5: “I have a special tablet at the screen of which you can see the entire BDK in a section. I select the room, set the mode (for example,“ water intake ”or“ fire ”), and the computer gives recommendations: where necessary to create defense lines, what proposals to promptly report to the ship’s commander, where to arrive, what to check, etc. Everything is very simple and clear. Press one button - the ship goes into automatic mode, but, of course, there is also a backup manual control. some systems pre It will provide two- and even three-fold redundancy. "

    In general, automation is automatic, but crew members must be able to work in manual mode - this is a separate task in the trial operation. So the development takes place: something does not work, the sailors find out why. They need to understand how it starts, to know the basic errors that the system may produce. And you need to study all this while the ship is in the base. At sea, everything should work without fail, like a clock.

    Commander of the BS-5: “There is a lot of automation at the BDK, and we don’t have a special training center. Yes — there are operating instructions, yes — we are trying to“ probe ”everything ourselves, but on such a modern ship the personnel should be well educated and It’s also bad that almost no one was left from the crew that worked directly with the industry at the construction site to take the ship. I myself came to Ivan Gren a little more than six months ago. Today in the warhead [most numerous of of all warheads of any ship - A.Sh.] only six of the first crewmen "...

    One of them is the batch crew engineer, contract sailor: “I was very interested in the service on such a modern ship ... The project is new, very convenient, but requires study and constant attention. You can’t completely rely on the sensors here, you also need to know the mechanical part. From the very beginning, I was seriously interested in everything, I tried to delve into it, asked questions to industry representatives, I understood that this knowledge would be useful in the future. I really want to go to sea as soon as possible. But so far we are just getting ready "(end of quote) (link 1).


    In conclusion, three comments:

    1) taking into account the long and chaotic process of creating Grena (six-year design according to the three-time TTZ, 22 changes during construction - ref. 2), it seems that the degree of novelty of the project 11711 was so high that it raised doubts about its performance (in features - beyond the Arctic Circle), which led to the decision on trial operation;

    2) a serious "dilution" of the BDK crew by personnel unfamiliar with the project, no doubt, slowed down the development of materiel and affected the terms of trial operation, which can be blamed both on the main department of defense personnel and the personnel of the Northern Fleet;

    3) it is curious that a performance test in trial operation is assigned not only to the ship as a whole, but (separately) to its components, such as landing devices. ■

    https://navy-korabel.livejournal.com/214838.html
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    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:08 pm

    Isos wrote:
    I'd be tempted to do an ice class hybrid ship
    destroyer type front end …. heli-carrier rear …..
    around 200m ….. it would be a beast …. with subs nearby

    They thought about it long before you  Very Happy but it wasn't for landing ops.

    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 26 280px-11

    It was an old idea when the Soviets laid them down....

    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 26 Ise1944
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:21 am

    But didn't conform to at that time modern western ship design so it was always rather derided in the west as proof of the backwardness of the Soviet Navy.

    Of course at the time, it was pretty much all they really needed.

    Soon though, extensions in range for SLBMs meant they needed something with a bit more range and endurance...
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    Post  Isos on Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:28 pm

    The little plane that lands on water in the picture should still be produced with modern radar for maritime patrol and give mid course corections to missiles.

    They could recover it with a crane and launch it from a rather simple catapult like on old cruisers. It could eventually operate from Lavina and Lider classes. Its speed and range can help helicopters for those duties. With modern engines, modern catapult it could be weught twice as older once and carry decent EW, radars or EO systems.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:35 pm

    Isos wrote:The little plane that lands on water in the picture should still be produced with modern radar for maritime patrol and give mid course corections to missiles.

    They could recover it with a crane and launch it from a rather simple catapult like on old cruisers. It could eventually operate from Lavina and Lider classes. Its speed and range can help helicopters for those duties. With modern engines, modern catapult it could be weught twice as older once and carry decent EW, radars or EO systems.


    That ship design is from 1944, what the hell have you been smoking?

    Hydroplanes? Seriously?

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    Post  Isos on Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:13 pm


    That ship design is from 1944, what the hell have you been smoking?

    Hydroplanes? Seriously?

    Not hydroplane but seaplane.

    Why not. A flying radar will always be a bonus for a ship. A new one could have a range of 1000km and cruise speed of 400-500 km/h and piloted by a man.
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    Post  marat on Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:22 pm

    Isos wrote:

    That ship design is from 1944, what the hell have you been smoking?

    Hydroplanes? Seriously?

    Not hydroplane but seaplane.

    Why not. A flying radar will always be a bonus for a ship. A new one could have a range of 1000km and cruise speed of 400-500 km/h and piloted by a man.

    You have some example of such practice in last 70 years? Does that tell you something about that practice?


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