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Hole
Nothing new. Either for larger (Mil) helicopters or for the special rescue heli.
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70 posters
Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class
Hole- Posts : 10679
Points : 10657
Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 47
Location : Scholzistan
Nothing new. Either for larger (Mil) helicopters or for the special rescue heli.
Isos- Posts : 11296
Points : 11266
Join date : 2015-11-06
Does the M stands for Mil or is there another signification ?
By the way we can see the same lift on the kiev as on the Ivan gren 2.0. So it is what I said. It might suggests that helicopters will be stored inside the ship and total number can be higher than expected making it into an helicopter carrier.
By the way we can see the same lift on the kiev as on the Ivan gren 2.0. So it is what I said. It might suggests that helicopters will be stored inside the ship and total number can be higher than expected making it into an helicopter carrier.
Hole- Posts : 10679
Points : 10657
Join date : 2018-03-24
Age : 47
Location : Scholzistan
To your question: 
It is suggested in some books that it stands for Mil.
Maybe it is a mix between lift (helis) and ramp (vehicles).
It is suggested in some books that it stands for Mil.Maybe it is a mix between lift (helis) and ramp (vehicles).
Isos- Posts : 11296
Points : 11266
Join date : 2015-11-06
To your question: dunno It is suggested in some books that it stands for Mil.
Do you know which Mil helicopter was navalized and actually used on ships?
I heard of mi-14 being used until the 90s but never saw one on an actual ship. I think it was mostly used from coastal bases.
Most intersting is that if they plan a landing pad for it, then they will resume its construction or make a naval mi-38.
GarryB- Posts : 38926
Points : 39422
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
AFAIK the Mi-14 is a coastal aircraft only and was never intended to operate from ships of any kind.
A naval version of the Mi-38 would be interesting, but then any helicopter carrier would also carry Ka-52Ks which means high roofed hangars because of the rotor height so a new Kamov coaxial design could also be developed as they tend to be rather compact for their size and weight and capacity and are much safer on the deck of a ship.
Helicopters with tail rotors are easier to operate with their noses turned into the wind because a small nod or lifting up of the nose can compensate for changes in wind speed rather easily to allow them to hold position. The problem is that if the ship turns or the wind changes direction or both then they have to swing that tail rotor around to compensate and keep pointing towards the wind, which can have bad consequences to crew on the deck as they rarely do it with much warning.
For coaxial helos they can swing as they please... getting hit by the tail might be uncomfortable, but without a tail rotor is unlikely to be lethal in itself.
A Ka-29 can carry 16 troops and armament and is a rather capable little attack helo.... something newer with new composite armour and improved avionics... perhaps a related package to that fitted to the Ka-52K would make it a rather potent helo...
New technology from new high speed helo designs will only make it even better.
BTW my understanding is that they are putting the Mi-14 back in to production again as it was a useful aircraft... perhaps some updates could make it even better.
A naval version of the Mi-38 would be interesting, but then any helicopter carrier would also carry Ka-52Ks which means high roofed hangars because of the rotor height so a new Kamov coaxial design could also be developed as they tend to be rather compact for their size and weight and capacity and are much safer on the deck of a ship.
Helicopters with tail rotors are easier to operate with their noses turned into the wind because a small nod or lifting up of the nose can compensate for changes in wind speed rather easily to allow them to hold position. The problem is that if the ship turns or the wind changes direction or both then they have to swing that tail rotor around to compensate and keep pointing towards the wind, which can have bad consequences to crew on the deck as they rarely do it with much warning.
For coaxial helos they can swing as they please... getting hit by the tail might be uncomfortable, but without a tail rotor is unlikely to be lethal in itself.
A Ka-29 can carry 16 troops and armament and is a rather capable little attack helo.... something newer with new composite armour and improved avionics... perhaps a related package to that fitted to the Ka-52K would make it a rather potent helo...
New technology from new high speed helo designs will only make it even better.
BTW my understanding is that they are putting the Mi-14 back in to production again as it was a useful aircraft... perhaps some updates could make it even better.
hoom- Posts : 2352
Points : 2340
Join date : 2016-05-06
Poster from Army 2019
And Morgunov tidying up
And Morgunov tidying up
hoom- Posts : 2352
Points : 2340
Join date : 2016-05-06
Charly015 comparison http://charly015.blogspot.com/2019/07/unos-graficos-mas-sobre-la-evolucion.html
PapaDragon- Posts : 13264
Points : 13306
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
So it's not just layout, size is different as well?
If correct then new one can easily carry 4 helicopters onboard and quite a few more vehicles.
Or maybe they used extra space to add well deck in the rear?
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2407
Points : 2574
Join date : 2015-12-30
Location : Merkelland
PapaDragon wrote:
So it's not just layout, size is different as well?
If correct then new one can easily carry 4 helicopters onboard and quite a few more vehicles.
Or maybe they used extra space to add well deck in the rear?
They basically made a totally new ship, but they kept the same project number not to admit they "screwed up" with the original ivan gren...
If the size comparison is that suggested in charlie015 blog, then this ship has similar size to the ivan Rogov, that was 14000tons full load (and max size of a ship that yantar shipyard can build). Afterall, they admitted that they need much more powerful engines for the ships of the modified project.
They need to revaluate the project and do full acceptance tests, as it is basically a new project.
They will also subject the design to full review from an audit team next year, to avoid all the issues with failed designs and mistakes that happened with ivan gren
https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%A4%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%90%D1%80%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%8F128/
The Rotterdam class has also a similar size (14000tons full load) and probably inspired the design of the 11711M.
The large landing ships of the second series of the project 11711 will be the first to undergo mandatory pre-design technical expertise. It will be performed by experts of the Krylov State Scientific Center. Mil.Press FlotProm stated this on the margins of the Army-2019 forum at the head of the KSCC Pavel Filippov.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13264
Points : 13306
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
I doubt there is a single person who doesn't think that original Gren design was a screw up
Whatever the story is it's good t see them cleaning the mess up and turning complete failure into something that has potential to solve huge amount of problems for the Navy
Quite a rarity to see Russian defense industry solving problems on it's own instead of blaming everyone else for their failures and coming up with excuses
Rodion_Romanovic- Posts : 2407
Points : 2574
Join date : 2015-12-30
Location : Merkelland
What is strange, however, is that in various sources they mention an increase in size and displacement, but only up to 7000 or 8000 tons.
Is it "maskirovka"?
Is it "maskirovka"?
JohninMK- Posts : 14645
Points : 14780
Join date : 2015-06-16
Location : England
Has overtones of the Tu-22 to Tu-22M saga. 
GarryB- Posts : 38926
Points : 39422
Join date : 2010-03-30
Location : New Zealand
The old design drawing doesn't have bow doors, but the new design does, which suggests perhaps a lot of the stuff in the belly of the ship was lifted up to create a through deck presumably for vehicles...
hoom- Posts : 2352
Points : 2340
Join date : 2016-05-06
IG does have bow doors & it was part of the original canal-worthy version.
I actually think Charly015 has got the size increase a bit too large, if you look at stuff like the 3 holes in the stern & the radomes they're a bit bigger on the new version than the old IG.
I actually think Charly015 has got the size increase a bit too large, if you look at stuff like the 3 holes in the stern & the radomes they're a bit bigger on the new version than the old IG.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13264
Points : 13306
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
hoom wrote:IG does have bow doors & it was part of the original canal-worthy version.
I actually think Charly015 has got the size increase a bit too large, if you look at stuff like the 3 holes in the stern & the radomes they're a bit bigger on the new version than the old IG.
It would be super nice if design bureau would just release proper render
I could understand secrecy if this was some super secret stealth bomber project but it's just glorified cargo ship
It's basic advertising
hoom- Posts : 2352
Points : 2340
Join date : 2016-05-06
This one you posted is from the Shipyard https://www.russiadefence.net/t537p575-project-11711e-ivan-gren-class#259408
But an official comparison would be nice yes.
But an official comparison would be nice yes.
Isos- Posts : 11296
Points : 11266
Join date : 2015-11-06
You will see how big it is when they finish building it like in 20 years 
. Just kidding don't attack me.
. Just kidding don't attack me.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13264
Points : 13306
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
And finally:
marat- Posts : 352
Points : 348
Join date : 2015-04-26
If I understood well this will be LSD class as it could take 6 LCU so she will have well deck. That is great.
PapaDragon- Posts : 13264
Points : 13306
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
marat wrote:If I understood well this will be LSD class as it could take 6 LCU so she will have well deck. That is great.
Table also says (and crowd on balancer.ru thinks as well) that it will carry 12 helicopters (10 standard + 2 medivac)
If true this is huge, it's more than anything else in this class by a wide margin. Even Type 071 which is three times heavier only carries 4.
Let's hope it really is 10+2 because that would be epic improvement over anything Russia ever had.
12 helicopters, 6 landing craft and on top of everything it can land on beach directly,
Also question: where are living quarters for marines located? Vehicles are below, hangars, bridge and sensors are in the superstructure so where do they keep grunts?
marat- Posts : 352
Points : 348
Join date : 2015-04-26
PapaDragon wrote:marat wrote:If I understood well this will be LSD class as it could take 6 LCU so she will have well deck. That is great.
Table also says (and crowd on balancer.ru thinks as well) that it will carry 12 helicopters (10 standard + 2 medivac)
If true this is huge, it's more than anything else in this class by a wide margin. Even Type 071 which is three times heavier only carries 4.
Let's hope it really is 10+2 because that would be epic improvement over anything Russia ever had.
12 helicopters, 6 landing craft and on top of everything it can land on beach directly,
Also question: where are living quarters for marines located? Vehicles are below, hangars, bridge and sensors are in the superstructure so where do they keep grunts?
2 helicopters are normal load, but they could use well deck for additional space for helicopters. In that case she could not take vehicles or LSU, but just helicopters.
So she could have 2 helicopters and 6 Serna LCU , but in that case there are no space for vehicles. Or just 10-12 helicopters from which just 2 could be used in operations others are just option as cargo.
Or 2 helicopters and vehicles.
This is after all 8k ship.
Some additional info> https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/121867/#cut
hoom- Posts : 2352
Points : 2340
Join date : 2016-05-06
Thats the only way I can see to fit 12 choppers on that size ship.2 helicopters are normal load, but they could use well deck for additional space for helicopters. In that case she could not take vehicles or LSU, but just helicopters.
A very good question.Also question: where are living quarters for marines located?
Probably not specced to be comfortable at all -> can be probably a surprisingly tiny volume.
hoom- Posts : 2352
Points : 2340
Join date : 2016-05-06
Morgunov trials delayed till at least late August https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%9C%D0%B2%D0%BC%D1%8132/
PapaDragon- Posts : 13264
Points : 13306
Join date : 2015-04-26
Location : Fort Evil, Serbia
hoom wrote:Thats the only way I can see to fit 12 choppers on that size ship.2 helicopters are normal load, but they could use well deck for additional space for helicopters. In that case she could not take vehicles or LSU, but just helicopters.
I love how precise they are with descriptions...
So well deck acts as multipurpose garage?
Would it be reasonable to assume that in normal setup ship would carry standard load of vehicles, 2 landing craft and 2 helicopters?
hoom wrote:A very good question.Also question: where are living quarters for marines located?
Probably not specced to be comfortable at all -> can be probably a surprisingly tiny volume.
I doubt anyone expected comfort
But with hangar holding 2 helicopters it would leave rest of lower superstructure for marine accommodation, right?
I still think that hangar could easily hold more than 2 helicopters, they said 4 helicopters in that shipyard document:
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2019/07/yantar-shipyard-unveils-design-of-improved/
marat- Posts : 352
Points : 348
Join date : 2015-04-26
We do not know how long hangar is, maybe just up to 20 m so it could accommodate just 2 helicopters. In that case they would have a quite a lot od space on main deck level, in front of hangar for living space ( maybe for 2 floors as hangar have to be about 6 meters high as Ka-29 is about 5.5m high)