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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:01 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:YESSSS!!!

    This is smartest thing they could have done by far.

    They converted old school landing ships into proper Rotterdam-style LPD thus capitalizing on time and money already invested in them and saving themselves the hassle of building Priboi LPD.

    They can now focus on developing Avalanche LHD and have decent LPD already in production, perfect!

    Looks like Russians stick to tradition. The difference between Project 11711 and "improved" 11711 seems to be like: Tu-22 and Tu-22m.  You add just m et voila !  lol1  lol1  lol1



    BTW Rakhmanov was mentioning that Ivan Gren project can be modified till 14,000 tons in next step  lol1  lol1  lol1 . Well this is coincidentally  fucking close to Lavina LHD...

    That would be similar size to the rotterdam class and the soviet Ivan Rogov. It is also the max displacement that.can be built in Yantar.
    Btw an equivalent of rotterdam class.LHD was what the.navy wanted before they tried.to buy french
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    Post  Hole on Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:37 pm

    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 22 Its_sa10
    Next step? San Giorgio class. 8.000t. 133m long.
    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:50 pm

    "Standard" Gren

    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 22 M8swsy10
    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 22 Oufgug10
    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 22 Zxlbhw10
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:19 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    That would be similar size to the rotterdam class and the soviet Ivan Rogov. It is also the max displacement that.can be built in Yantar.
    Btw an equivalent of rotterdam class.LHD was what the.navy wanted before they tried.to buy french


    Regardless is that would be Rotterdam stylwe or more like mini LHD Russia navy needs it.  Venezuela is best example.  IMHO  UDK/LHD can be used also in more to other roles, ASW for example if needed. With Ka-52k also troops support ones.


    Hole wrote:Next step? San Giorgio class. 8.000t. 133m long.

    Current "updated" Gren has 8ktons displacement already thus "more updated" is rather close to twice what then St Giorgio is scratch scratch scratch

    BTW St Giorgio looks cool fo course , like any Italian design lol1 lol1 lol1


    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 22 PRIBOI_MVMS-2017_170629_06


    BTW Sorry Prioboy no Lavina ;-)
    https://flot.com/2015/%D0%9C%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C40/
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:15 pm

    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    Current "updated" Gren has 8ktons displacement already  thus  "more updated" is rather close to twice what then St Giorgio is scratch scratch scratch

    BTW St Giorgio looks cool fo course , like any Italian design lol1 lol1 lol1

    Of course we do good design. Unfortunately we are an american colony and full of debts, our navy's most modern frigates and LPDs are used to escort illegal immigrants and terrorists from Africa to Italy and our defence minister's highest priority is organizing LGBT tolerance classes for the Libyan military and posting appreciation of a lesbian wedding between a navy lieutenant and a navy NCO (all of it while criticizing the rest of the armed.forces because of the presence of too many old and not modern military values). cry
    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    BTW Sorry Prioboy no Lavina ;-)
    https://flot.com/2015/%D0%9C%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C40/

    Apparently one of the reason is the delay of the enlarging and modernisation of severnaia verf, that is not ready to produce such ships.
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:31 pm



    UDK/LHD can be used also in more to other roles, ASW for example if needed. With Ka-52k also troops support ones.

    Yes, multifunctionality is a way to go. If a ship is designed modularly, it's easy to adapt it for different roles. Plenty of room on deck would allow for anti-air version, with Buk aboard, anti-sub with Ka-27 or amphibious with Ka-52.
    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:50 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:

    posting appreciation of a lesbian wedding between a navy lieutenant and a navy NCO

    were they hot? Razz Razz Razz BTW well I hope this masonic-liberal (not to mix with leftist) crap will die or at least people who are disseminating it will do so.



    GunshipDemocracy wrote:

    BTW Sorry Prioboy no Lavina ;-)
    https://flot.com/2015/%D0%9C%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C40/

    Apparently one of the reason is the delay of the enlarging and modernisation of severnaia verf, that is not ready to produce such ships.[/quote]

    I dont think so, this one is 14ktons. So can be built in Kaliningrad's Yantar. I dotn think 14ktons is magical coincidence here. Look at Rogoff size/displacement very similar.

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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:52 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:


    UDK/LHD can be used also in more to other roles, ASW for example if needed. With Ka-52k also troops support ones.

    Yes, multifunctionality is a way to go. If a ship is designed modularly, it's easy to adapt it for different roles. Plenty of room on deck would allow for anti-air version, with Buk aboard, anti-sub with Ka-27 or amphibious with Ka-52.


    Buks?? I agree more containers for sonars, or AAD but Buks? not better Poliments with short range AADs?
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    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:23 pm

    Buks??  I agree more containers for sonars, or AAD but Buks? not better Poliments with short range AADs?

    Well, I don't know, Poliment-Redut is a big system. Perhaps they could make a container version like for Kalibr. Buk was however already tested on Grigorovich, so it works for sure and it has decent 80 km range thumbsup

    Still, Redut missiles are shorter than Kalibr's, so it should be even easier to containerise it...or maybe they would even fit in Kalibr's containers. I would like to see how could they make a mobile mast for a big radar like Poliment that has 4 parts for all sky directions. Mobile erector in container could perhaps raise it even higher as it is position on Gorshkov, so it could offer even bigger range. And of course transmitt discovered objects to other ships in a group.
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    Post  AlfaT8 on Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:59 pm

    Ok this is so very confusing, but from what i could find, this new Gren might in fact be the Priboy design.
    Considering this early pic of Priboy.
    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 22 PRIBOI_ARMIA-2015_02(1)

    While Lavina was the heavier.
    As stipulated here:
    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 22 CsV53sjWcAACCA2

    Yet size comparisons between the Mistral and Lavina clearly show similarity, yet the Mistral is only 16kT in weight.

    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 22 5ab90-buque2blavina2bvs2bmistral


    So, in conclusion, it is obvious that we are looking at Max Load weight here for both the Priboy and Lavina.
    So this new 8kT Gren is the Priboy, while the so called further 14kT upgrade is in reality the Lavina itself.
    I suspect the Russian journalists are screwing up again.

    P.S: Weight wise the new Gren is an LPD not an LPH, something more akin to the Ōsumi-class rather than the Rotterdam class, with respect to weight.
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    Post  dino00 on Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:41 pm

    The characteristics remain the same: 2:44

    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:42 pm

    LPD needs a deck that can be flooded.

    New Gren is supposedly 8.000ts max. Priboy is 14.000ts.

    The developer claims the Gren design can be enlarged up to 14.000ts. I would say the next step (after this two) is the Priboy, a longer and wider version of the Gren with a real well deck for landing crafts.


    The Wladimir Andreev could use a few small ACV´s from its tank deck or stow them midships (use the crane to lower them into the water) to bring soldiers to the beach. With 4 Ka-29 and 3 ACV´s the first wave could be something between 50 to 80 soldiers. In a few years the second wave will consist of BMMP´s and/or Bumerangs.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:49 pm


    Everybody got a bit distracted over semantics so nobody is talking about most important thing here: Russian Navy just made one of smartest decisions in a very long time

    Instead of waiting for years just to get a blueprint for new class of transport ships they have taken obsolete project that was considered a problem in it's own right and converted it into solution

    All that time, money and effort that went into designing, building and testing of Ivan Gren will not only not go to waste but will be paying off dividends big time

    This ship just went from being a dead end to becoming viable up-to-date solution for replacing entire Russian transport fleet

    Instead of waiting for years just to get the blueprints and who knows how long to get the first ship they now have ready-to-go solution for 19 transport ships that are due for retirement (15 Ropuchas and 4 Alligators both of which are half the size of Gren) which can be built quickly

    All that endless hassle was not for nothing after all  thumbsup  cheers




    And let's just appreciate how superior this new setup is when compared to vanilla Gren, if they keep expanding on it as they say they will it will be prefect

    Someone posted photo of vanilla version of San Giorgio-class which is damn fine direction to move in to but I will just point out that San Giorgio-class currently looks like this:

    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 22 Giorgio01

    Full flattop, this is excellent approach   Cool




    Combine this with decision to build more Gorshkovs and things really seem to be looking up, all that we need to hear in order to say that Russian Navy is finally on it's way out of the woods is that Borei-K or another Yasen will be ordered (slot in shipyard just became available)




    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:03 pm

    If the lower part of the superstructure isn´t used to accomodate some sailors/soldiers then a more compact one should be no big problem, all the more if the design is enlarged to 14.000ts.

    I guess the 5 year hibernation do to the engine shenanigans has come to an end yesterday. Lets hope that the Navy keeps ordering new ships in the coming month.

    12 Wladimir Andreevs should do it to replace the Alligators/Ropuchas.
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    Post  Guest on Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:55 pm

    Full or "almost full" flat-top is the way to go imo, adds so much versatility.
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:47 am

    Hole wrote:Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 22 Its_sa10
    Next step? San Giorgio class. 8.000t. 133m long.

    That looks terrible... it looks like there is only one place those helicopters can even take off or land on on that ship because of the size of the rotor blades... that is pathetic... the rest of the deck is just open storage space... what a useless design...

    Extending the deck out and making it bigger you should get at least four landing spots for large helos for a ship that size.

    All that time, money and effort that went into designing, building and testing of Ivan Gren will not only not go to waste but will be paying off dividends big time

    They haven't done anything yet and you are claiming success... blink twice if there is a gun at your head right now...

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    Post  George1 on Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:27 pm

    Rodion_Romanovic wrote:
    Btw an equivalent of rotterdam class.LHD was what the.navy wanted before they tried.to buy french

    Yes it resembles Rotterdam class LPD. BTW Rotterdam class can carny 6 helos

    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 22 1280px-HNLMS_Rotterdam_at_Nieuwe_Waterweg%2C_Starboard_Bow%2C_05.09.2016

    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 22 Hr._Ms_Rotterdam_%281998%29_2
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:49 pm

    the Priboy's are like 24k Tons, not 14, That is like their dead weight when nothing, not even the engines are in it.

    There is no Full Displacement yet since the ship needs to be in the water fully loaded for them to determine how heavy it is in the water.

    But remember to wait for the ships to be built before you count them chickens.

    Has for the name confusion they used to be called Lavina but that name was dumped the official name is Priboy or SURF in Russia.

    The code name for the Gren you guys are talking about is "11711E" it's not going to be 8K tons more like 7K. Should they decide to build them that is a very big "Maybe" right now.
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    Post  Isos on Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:49 pm

    It's not with those sort of ships they will land tanks on ground. They need Ropuchas and aligator successor too.

    If they don't have them, Mistral class like and roterdam like ships are useless. Helicopters will be dead meat for AAA and manpads.

    They also need big guns to support them. Main reason of 130mm gun on Sovs were fire at ground targets to support landing ops. And they had 4 of them per ship.

    But must admit the design change is impressive
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    Post  medo on Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:37 pm

    Redesigned Gren is now very similar to Priboj class, so designing of Priboj could be also finnished now and could went into production. Priboj and lavina are large ships, so I expect, they will be build in Zvezda shipyard in Vladivostok, which is the best suited to build large ships, even aircraft carriers. And Zvezda shipyard doesn't have problem to get such ships through Bospor, like shipyards in Black sea. This is why Kuznetsov is not a real carrier, but a cruiser. But to bring tanks to the coast, they will still need ships like original Gren.
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    Post  Hole on Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:23 pm

    LPD´s use ACV´s or conventional landing boats to bring tanks to the beach.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:40 pm

    Hole wrote:LPD´s use ACV´s or conventional landing boats to bring tanks to the beach.

    But they are very easy target for ATGMs on water. Specially the top attack ones like french MMP that can hide 2 or 3 km inside the land.

    A ropucha class brig everything directly on land where there is more cover and even has grads and big guns to clean the area.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:45 pm

    Isos wrote:It's not with those sort of ships they will land tanks on ground. They need Ropuchas and aligator successor too...

    Gren is Ropucha successor

    And it can land tanks just fine, it was it's intended purpose



    Isos wrote:...They also need big guns to support them...

    That's the job for other ships, Gren is supposed to haul troops and vehicles

    If they need artillery they can just have some Buyans tag along with that 100mm boom-stick, and don't even get me started on bigger stuff

    But it's doubtful they will need them, planes and missiles will be clearing out the area long before Grens come close
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    Post  Isos on Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:33 pm


    But it's doubtful they will need them, planes and missiles will be clearing out the area long before Grens come close

    Like they cleared Iraq or Syria ?

    Grads are good at clearing mines fields. Big guns are good at precision strikes for cheap. Ropucha has guns, grens not.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:38 pm

    Isos wrote:

    But it's doubtful they will need them, planes and missiles will be clearing out the area long before Grens come close

    Like they cleared Iraq or Syria ?

    Grads are good at clearing mines fields. Big guns are good at precision strikes for cheap. Ropucha has guns, grens not.


    I don't remember Russian Navy doing amphibious landings in Syria

    If they need guns they have ships for that

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