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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

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    Viktor
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Viktor on Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:28 pm

    Here TR1, they moved the date to 2015 ... whats is the story with Ivan Grean?? Why stalling ... 

    Surrender BDK "Ivan Gren" fleet moved to 2015

    TR1
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TR1 on Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:54 pm

    Fleet doesn't want it.

    Time wise 2015 is easily achievable, but even if they accept the ship, I don't think they are interested in a second hull at this point.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  navyfield on Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:46 pm

    another failed design bites the dust ,thank god someone with sane mind canceled the sister ship and imported proper french naval technology eg. mistral !

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TR1 on Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:05 pm

    Yeah thank god for huge useless French barges.

    Even worse than Ivan Gren as far as the Russian navy is concerned.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:31 pm

    Well we have to get the two french made vessels into Russian service and test them out before we can say they are any more useful than the Ivan Grens, but I suspect they will be more useful due to their increased size and multirole capabilities.

    France is an imperial power from way back so it knows a thing or two about murdering savages in their own country... just like the UK and now the US, so Russia might find such a vessel useful as it becomes a more mobile blue water Navy.  Razz 


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  navyfield on Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:24 pm

    first i see no reason to bring up politics like you did so i wont comment and will stick to the topic.
    second ,we already have experience with french mistral in french service and its great.
    It will also be great for Russia in pacific island chain ,black sea ,baltic.
    This move was criticised but it has proven to be a great leap forward for russian naval industry (from construction tech ,propulsion , electronics ....etc.) who lost pace with modern developments in the 90s.
    And there will ofcourse be more mistral class ships built in Russia (and that confirms it was a good decision).

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TR1 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:31 pm

    Wow, that is some terrible circular logic, without any specifics.
    What has been so "great" about it in French service? What exactly do French requirments have to do with the Russian navy, in both situation and doctrine?

    Do tell how the Mistral is useful in "pacific islands (LOL)) and baltic.

    Go into details how the buy has modernized Russia's propulsion building ability. Or construction tech. Wopadedo, Baltisky built have of a big steel barge. And? It could do that before.

    And further Mistrals is by no means a fact at this point.


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:16 pm

    Ivan Gren is a landing ship tank. Mistral is a landing helicopter dock. Different ships

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:06 pm

    first i see no reason to bring up politics like you did so i wont comment and will stick to the topic.

    The Mistral was not designed for the Russians... it has been modified for the Russians but is basically designed for French interests.
    The Russian Navy think, with a few modifications, that it might be useful for them too but we really wont know till they get to test it.

    second ,we already have experience with french mistral in french service and its great.

    Can you provide information about what it has done since it has been in service that no other french platform (or indeed no other Russian platform) could have performed?

    It will also be great for Russia in pacific island chain ,black sea ,baltic.

    It is too big for the Black Sea and Baltic... it will be used in the Pacific and the Northern Fleet and the Arctic.

    This move was criticised but it has proven to be a great leap forward for russian naval industry (from construction tech ,propulsion , electronics ....etc.) who lost pace with modern developments in the 90s.

    You might be able to say such things after the second two vessels are built and the Russians actually make more than 30% of the ships. And that assumes they actually make them.

    Of course you would be wrong as they have also been working with the South Koreans on how a shipyard should really work... the South Koreans could show the French a thing or two in that area.

    I suspect they will make two more because they will want to be sure there are no trojans in them...


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:21 pm

    What effin idiot in the BSF wouldn't want a new modern landing ship for the fleet and thinks the ancient project 775s are enough for amphibious operation there?

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:57 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:What effin idiot in  the BSF wouldn't want a new modern landing ship for the fleet and thinks the ancient project 775s are enough for amphibious operation there?

    i agree, and 3-4 of them would be ideal for the replacement of more old ones Project 1171 Alligator

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:48 pm

    According to Kaliningrad shipyard "Yantar", large landing ship "Ivan Gren" Project 11711 will not be delivered to Russian Navy until 2015

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  runaway on Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:16 pm

    George1 wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:What effin idiot in  the BSF wouldn't want a new modern landing ship for the fleet and thinks the ancient project 775s are enough for amphibious operation there?

    i agree, and 3-4 of them would be ideal for the replacement of more old ones Project 1171 Alligator

    And i cant see the Mistral being " to big" for baltic or black sea either. A big landing ship with helos should be better than small landing ships with limited capabilities and in higher sea states.


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:46 pm

    TR1 wrote:Wow, that is some terrible circular logic, without any specifics.
    What has been so "great" about it in French service? What exactly do French requirments have to do with the Russian navy, in both situation and doctrine?

    Do tell how the Mistral is useful in "pacific islands (LOL)) and baltic.

    Go into details how the buy has modernized Russia's propulsion building ability. Or construction tech. Wopadedo, Baltisky built have of a big steel barge. And? It could do that before.

    And further Mistrals is by no means a fact at this point.

    Mistral is far more than a floating barge, it is a forward deployed Army Air Corps base as well as hospital and command that can go anywhere.  

    In French service, the Mistral class has supported both combat and humanitarian missions numerous times. It provided air support, EVAC, SAR, heavy lift and medical missions.  It is the most useful naval ship in French service.    

    It gives us the ability to threaten any neighbour who might have designs on our periphery as well as projecting force globally.  Not to mention finally give the marines the ability to conduct joint operations with distant allies.

    Mistral is far and above anything we have.  Maybe we could have completed one ourselves, but it is cheaper to buy it off the French.  

    We have paid $800 million already, it is a fact to that point. The experienced gained in its construction is proper process of modular shipbuilding which is something we do not do well and has both military and commercial applications.


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  navyfield on Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:54 pm

    tell that to garry and tr1 ,they have their biased heads in clouds it seems  lol! 

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TR1 on Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:19 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Wow, that is some terrible circular logic, without any specifics.
    What has been so "great" about it in French service? What exactly do French requirments have to do with the Russian navy, in both situation and doctrine?

    Do tell how the Mistral is useful in "pacific islands (LOL)) and baltic.

    Go into details how the buy has modernized Russia's propulsion building ability. Or construction tech. Wopadedo, Baltisky built have of a big steel barge. And? It could do that before.

    And further Mistrals is by no means a fact at this point.

    Mistral is far more than a floating barge, it is a forward deployed Army Air Corps base as well as hospital and command that can go anywhere.  

    In French service, the Mistral class has supported both combat and humanitarian missions numerous times. It provided air support, EVAC, SAR, heavy lift and medical missions.  It is the most useful naval ship in French service.    

    It gives us the ability to threaten any neighbour who might have designs on our periphery as well as projecting force globally.  Not to mention finally give the marines the ability to conduct joint operations with distant allies.

    Mistral is far and above anything we have.  Maybe we could have completed one ourselves, but it is cheaper to buy it off the French.  

    We have paid $800 million already, it is a fact to that point. The experienced gained in its construction is proper process of modular shipbuilding which is something we do not do well and has both military and commercial applications.  

    Oh there is no doubt it is far more capable than anything Russian- of the type. Note I have never said Russia should try to build a Mistral equivalent on its own- that would be even stupider.

    The question is is it a smart use of resources when the Russian Navy badly needs to replace escort and major surface combatants.
    I think, it is not, at all.
    In fact, in terms of doctrine and actual Russian Navy operational realities, the utility of the ships is debatable to say the least.

    Further, there is little proof of the massive "learning" from the Mistral that everyone claims Russian shipbuilding has received.
    Hell, the French did not even hand over the technology for the Zenit control system (pretty much the only thing from the ships the Russian Navy really wants) with 2 hulls - we have to buy FOUR to get that!

    The whole thing smells of massive corruption potential, typical of many Serdukov era deals.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:41 am

    What effin idiot in the BSF wouldn't want a new modern landing ship for the fleet and thinks the ancient project 775s are enough for amphibious operation there?

    Why would you want to put such a large target in such a small "lake"?

    They would not need Mistral for operations against Georgia... they didn't need Mistral for operations against Georgia, while against the other NATo countries in the Black Sea... which exactly can you see such a vessel actually being of military use?


    (Hint- Such conflicts will be nuclear and will not require amphibious operations).

    Basing two Mistrals in the Pacific and two in the Northern Fleet means access to the two main oceans on the planet including the largest, in places of importance to Russia... ie ASIA and ARCTIC.


    And i cant see the Mistral being " to big" for baltic or black sea either. A big landing ship with helos should be better than small landing ships with limited capabilities and in higher sea states.

    The Northern Fleet and Pacific Fleet will have rather more ships and other assets to support their operations and make them safer and more effective.

    tell that to garry and tr1 ,they have their biased heads in clouds it seems

    Feel free to search through the threads and see if you can find me saying something against the Mistral purchase. I supported and still support it.

    In terms of capabilities I think the Russians could certainly develop and build its equal or better, but it would not be built for 10 years and it would cost rather more than these vessels are costing them.

    8.8.8. showed that foreign leaders can be totally irrational.. especially nationalist ones, and like Argentina invading the Falklands... the Japanese could easily decide that with surprise on their side they could take the Kurile islands... they have a much more formidable armed force than Argentina or Georgia... and of course with the likely full support of the US and therefore the western media, Russia really wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on... unless they had certain capabilities that not just the Mistral itself, but also the infrastructure upgrades and financial investment the introduction of the Mistral will require will bring.

    The question is is it a smart use of resources when the Russian Navy badly needs to replace escort and major surface combatants.
    I think, it is not, at all.

    But they are working on building those vessels too... the purchase of the Mistral demands the creation of escort vessels and support vessels and surface combatants to operate with it.

    Further, there is little proof of the massive "learning" from the Mistral that everyone claims Russian shipbuilding has received.
    Hell, the French did not even hand over the technology for the Zenit control system (pretty much the only thing from the ships the Russian Navy really wants) with 2 hulls - we have to buy FOUR to get that!

    Will Russia hand over brand new engines with the first Su-35 China buys, or will they demand they buy 150 first...

    Of course Russias experience gain from two ships largely built in France will be minimal, it is the second two built in Russia where they will learn the most and in terms of usefulness having two for the pacific fleet and two for the Northern Fleet means they will be deployed in a way to give better coverage as the fact that they are quite versatile also means it will be less predictable where they will be of most use at any given time.

    The whole thing smells of massive corruption potential, typical of many Serdukov era deals.

    Corruption and military deal... two concepts I have never seen together...



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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  medo on Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:45 am

    Anyone know if Russia will order additional 2 Mistrals for Northern fleet?

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    What effin idiot in the BSF wouldn't want a new modern landing ship for the fleet and thinks the ancient project 775s are enough for amphibious operation there?

    Why would you want to put such a large target in such a small "lake"?

    They would not need Mistral for operations against Georgia... they didn't need Mistral for operations against Georgia, while against the other NATo countries in the Black Sea... which exactly can you see such a vessel actually being of military use?


    (Hint- Such conflicts will be nuclear and will not require amphibious operations).

    Basing two Mistrals in the Pacific and two in the Northern Fleet means access to the two main oceans on the planet including the largest, in places of importance to Russia... ie ASIA and ARCTIC.

    I'm talking about the ivan gren being rejected not about the mistral Rolling Eyes

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:26 am

    Anyone know if Russia will order additional 2 Mistrals for Northern fleet?

    Unless there is a fatal flaw in the design the French haven't found yet or something substantial changes in Russias policy to the arctic I think the second pair of ships will be more practical use for Russia than the ones in the Pacific guarding the Kurile islands.

    I think Russia will get a lot of good will from Pacific Island states if they plan good will visits that offer health care, but most of the islands are poor and rely on colonial support... which would be jeopardised if they start looking at Russia.

    Of course two main issues for Pacific Islands that Russia could help with are fresh water supplies and electrical power generation. The nuclear power plant ships they are developing would be very useful for most Pacific Island nations where diesel generators are the main alternative, though solar and wind power also offer potential it would have to be without spoiling the environment as wind farms will ruin the tourist business there.

    I'm talking about the ivan gren being rejected not about the mistral

    My mistake...

    Regarding the Ivan Gren, I have heard they want something with much more range and endurance so that it could be based in the BSF or the Baltic but operate over long ranges for long periods of time.

    In other words a proper ocean going vessel that could go to the med or even africa if needed.


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TR1 on Sat Apr 05, 2014 12:41 am

    Hmm, actual progress:

    http://www.wrk.ru/forums/attachment.php?item=381506&download=2&type=.jpg

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  flamming_python on Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:03 am

    What advantage would there be of placing Mistrals in Northern Fleet as opposed to Pacific?

    To reiterate - their main uses are as:

    1) Transports for marine forces and their heavy equipment, supplies.
    2) Amphibious landing vessels and C4I, assault vessels for such operations
    3) Hospital ships
    4) Disaster relief & humanitarian operations
    5) Anti-surface and anti-sub capabilities given by their helicopter wing

    As anyone can see, half their utility is in peace-time, and most of the rest is suited towards low-intensity conflicts. So putting them all the way up in the Northern fleet, because of the modest anti-surface and anti-sub capability offered by their Ka-52 wing - seems like a non-optimal decision.
    They can do the same thing in the BSF, and with many other advantages besides.

    Basing them in the BSF, with one of them assigned to the Mediterranean task force at any one time; will give them ideal access to many possible areas of operations including Georgia, Ukraine, North Africa, Syria, etc... basically most of the hot-spots that Russia is involved in or can get involved in - border around the Mediterranean or Black Sea.
    It will also allow them to make port calls in friendly countries such as Greece, Cyprus, Algeria, Italy, Turkey, Syria, etc...
    While at the same time, if they need to go to the Carribean or South America, it won't take them any longer than if they were departing from Murmansk.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Sat Apr 05, 2014 8:54 am

    TR1 wrote:Hmm, actual progress:

    http://www.wrk.ru/forums/attachment.php?item=381506&download=2&type=.jpg

    i think this kind of ships look good to complement the mistrals

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:57 am

    They are useful as command ships and as the value of the arctic increases for Russia it will become more important to have mobile flexible forces in both its northern and pacific fleets.

    Moving groups of Marines to places around Russias arctic frontier make rather more sense than being able to deploy them rapidly to the Med or Africa.

    There is nothing for them to do in the Black Sea Fleet, but in the northern fleet they can protect ports and coastal areas as well as oil and gas platforms from Greenies and those more sinister.

    They will likely end up with two Ivan Grens which means likely two amphibious landing craft in the BSF anyway.


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:19 am

    GarryB wrote:They are useful as command ships and as the value of the arctic increases for Russia it will become more important to have mobile flexible forces in both its northern and pacific fleets.

    Moving groups of Marines to places around Russias arctic frontier make rather more sense than being able to deploy them rapidly to the Med or Africa.

    There is nothing for them to do in the Black Sea Fleet, but in the northern fleet they can protect ports and coastal areas as well as oil and gas platforms from Greenies and those more sinister.

    They will likely end up with two Ivan Grens which means likely two amphibious landing craft in the BSF anyway.

    Indeed. They have not much to do in the Black Sea because any point in that sea is no more than 300 km from the Crimea or Novorossysk or the Sochi coast. The Ivan Gren, Alligators and Ropuchas are sufficient there.
    With the current worldwide sate of affairs, a Mistral type ship would be very useful in the Mediterranean. The 2 ships can be rotated there from The North or Pacific fleets.

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