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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

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    hoom

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  hoom on Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:31 am

    Not really but ...ugh.
    GarryB
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Thu Nov 15, 2018 6:36 am

    Awww... come on... all this whining about not being able to make ships any more, or them all taking for ever to make...

    The first ship was laid down in 2004, hit the water in 2012 and didn't enter Russian Navy service till 2018.... lots of problems and changes in design...

    This second boat was laid down in 2015, hit the water this year in 2018 and will enter service if it passes its tests next year in 2019...

    That is an enormous improvement even if you are being a censored about it...

    Suggests at least some progress... especially since it is a ship type that is not actually urgently needed.
    Hole
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Hole on Thu Nov 15, 2018 11:11 am

    I could once again inform everyone that the building of the first ship was stopped because of Mistral, but I won´t wast my time.
    GarryB
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:37 am

    Of course not... everyone even remotely related to management or development or production must be taken out and beheaded immediately...

    I rather suspect the basic premise of scaling up a river boat was with the intent of modularity... if it had worked they could have standardised the design of ocean going landing vessels and river boats... but who could say it wont work until you actually try...

    But then there is no try... only do or do not... eh Master Yoda...
    dino00
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  dino00 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:54 am

    USC will build for the Navy another two or three ships of the class "Ivan Gren"

    This was announced to journalists by USC President Alexei Rakhmanov.

    "It was decided to finalize the project of Ivan Gren, in particular, there will be changes in the hull. At least, it is planned to build two or three ships on the revised project," Rakhmanov said. “There is no contract yet,” he added.

    https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/5863667
    verkhoturye51
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:39 pm

    It seems that the the navy finally started paying attention to the calls from the USC to be economical and make big series. Hopefuly all go to the Black sea fleet ports in Sevastopol and Odes... ehm Embarassed Novorossiysk.
    George1
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:40 pm

    Russia to build two more large amphibious assault ships

    Russia’s United Shipbuilding Corporation will build two or three more Ivan Gren-class large amphibious assault ships for the Russian Navy

    MOSCOW, December 3. /TASS/. Russia’s United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) will build two or three more Ivan Gren-class large amphibious assault ships for the Russian Navy, Corporation CEO Alexei Rakhmanov said on Monday.

    "A decision has been made to finalize the Ivan Gren project. In particular, there will be changes in the hull. There are plans to build at least two or more ships under the improved project," the chief executive said.

    "There is no contract yet," he added.

    As Rakhmanov said, the second ship of the first series, the Pyotr Morgunov, will be built actually in the same way as the lead ship Ivan Gren.

    The CEO of the Yantar Shipyard (where the ships of this class are under construction), Eduard Yefimov, earlier told TASS that the Ivan Gren series won’t be continued and there are plans to develop a new project of a large displacement ship.

    The Project 11711 large amphibious assault lead ship Ivan Gren was laid down at the Yantar Shipyard in Kaliningrad in December 2004 and put afloat in May 2012. It was accepted for service in the Russian Navy on June 20, 2018.

    The second ship of this Project, the Pyotr Morgunov, being built at the Yantar Shipyard on the Baltic coast, is due to enter trials no later than March 2019. In June next year, the warship is expected to start shipbuilders’ sea trials.

    Project 11711 warships are designed to land marines on a coastal area seized by the enemy and transport military hardware and equipment. The warship can carry 13 main battle tanks or 36 armored personnel carriers (infantry fighting vehicles), and also up to 300 marines. The amphibious assault ship can also transport a reinforced marine infantry company with organic military hardware and land it with the use of pontoons.


    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/1034053
    PapaDragon
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:51 pm

    dino00 wrote:USC will build for the Navy another two or three ships of the class "Ivan Gren"

    This was announced to journalists by USC President Alexei Rakhmanov.
    ..............

    Nice

    If they are making alterations to design they should install larger helideck and extra hangars
    flamming_python
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  flamming_python on Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:28 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    dino00 wrote:USC will build for the Navy another two or three ships of the class "Ivan Gren"

    This was announced to journalists by USC President Alexei Rakhmanov.
    ..............

    Nice

    If they are making alterations to design they should install larger helideck and extra hangars

    I'd imagine that's what they will do, as well as increasing helicopter capacity.

    What with the Mistrals now being gone and no definite successor project even approved as yet.

    These landing ships will have to pull their own weight in terms of chopper support.
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:51 pm

    flamming_python wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    dino00 wrote:USC will build for the Navy another two or three ships of the class "Ivan Gren"

    This was announced to journalists by USC President Alexei Rakhmanov.
    ..............

    Nice

    If they are making alterations to design they should install larger helideck and extra hangars

    I'd imagine that's what they will do, as well as increasing helicopter capacity.

    What with the Mistrals now being gone and no definite successor project even approved as yet.

    These landing ships will have to pull their own weight in terms of chopper support.

    As somebody suggested, a good compromise could be something  with a size similar to the italian San Giorgio class (8000tons vs 6600 tons of the ivan gren).

    I would like to see a capable ship with hangar for three helicopters, floodable dock, cranes and a few landings boats, in addition to some decent weapons (e.g. 1x 76mm (or 1x 100 naval gun), plus 1 or 2 pantsir m and a couple of machineguns.

    Do you believe it would be feasible?
    Hole
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Hole on Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:01 pm

    A gun was planned first but later deleted by the Navy. Mad

    I don´t think that they will add more helicopters. The Gren class is some sort of successor for the Ropucha, which had no helicopter at all.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:03 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:If they are making alterations to design they should install larger helideck and extra hangars

    + change in hull for better stability and buoyancy. I think that IG trials were prolonged because it had too much weight on one of the sides.


    flamming_python wrote:What with the Mistrals now being gone and no definite successor project even approved as yet.

    RIA wrote just today that there's new large amfibious ship in development. See the other topic. I hope that doesn't mean that the first Priboy won't be laid down in 2020 as planned Shocked
    Rodion_Romanovic
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:08 pm

    Hole wrote:A gun was planned first but later deleted by the Navy. Mad

    I don´t think that they will add more helicopters. The Gren class is some sort of successor for the Ropucha, which had no helicopter at all.

    The Ropucha had a naval gun, I believe for the Gren they just tried to save money removing weapons and.other equipment. However changing requirement (even if.simplifying it) at an advanced stage of.design.only increases the cost.

    Anyway, the Ivan Rogov (14000 tons full load) could carry up to 4 helicopters.
    eehnie
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  eehnie on Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:06 pm

    The construction of 2 or 3 ships more of the Project 11711 is necessary for Russia. Totally logical, like you can see here:

    http://www.russiadefence.net/t7032p50-state-armament-program-2018-2027#216049

    eehnie wrote:...

    2 - Project 775 >500 tons Amphibious Ship <--------------------> 2 - Likely new order >500 tons Amphibious Ship

    ...

    New orders of ships under the State Armament Program 2018-2027? Taking into account the previous analysis, is likely to see new orders of:
    Aircraft Carrier Warship (Project 23000, likely as commented)
    >500 tons Amphibious ships (Project 11711 or the project of the next generation)
    And maybe more

    ...

    PapaDragon
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:13 pm

    flamming_python wrote:....
    These landing ships will have to pull their own weight in terms of chopper support.

    If problems with engines and overall construction speed are sorted out then they should keep bottom part as-is and rearrange top section into something resembling Rotterdam-class just don't overdo it, keep it simple

    I don't think they should bother with weaponry other than CIWS, main gun will hardly make a difference and it's much easier to just have small ship(s) like Buyan tagging along if they really need artillery
    GarryB
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 04, 2018 5:47 am

    Actually, if they need artillery they could probably put Coalition on the front deck... 152mm calibre, 70km range with precision shells, rather good rate of fire too...

    And it could embark and operate with the landing force too.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Hole on Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:29 am

    Problem is to put it there. No hatch or crane on the foredeck. dunno
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:14 am

    Hole wrote:Problem is to put it there. No hatch or crane on the foredeck. dunno

    For that reason I said that I would like to see a capable ship with hangar for three helicopters, floodable dock, cranes and a few landings boats.

    However, having some decent weapons (similar to what you can find in  a 800 tons corvette, minus the UKSK launchers), should not be a big problem.

    I do not like the idea of a military ship without enough weapon to even repel somali pirates ...
    Hole
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Hole on Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:53 pm

    Gren has a large crane, but not on the foredeck.


    GarryB
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:33 am

    The range the gun would be firing from (ie off the coast to protect the ship) I rather suspect most shots would be fired at fairly steep angles, so firing from amidships should be fine... in fact firing from a SERNA landing craft would probably be OK too.
    Hole
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Hole on Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:19 am

    Or a modular installation. Would reduce the amount of ammunition but they could put it everywhere.

    Bonus:

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    hoom

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  hoom on Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:16 am

    IG was originally going to have 76mm gun & 2* grad launchers.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Dec 06, 2018 1:34 am

    hoom wrote:IG was originally going to have 76mm gun & 2* grad launchers.
    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/images/11711-image7.jpg

    Doesn't need either

    It needs CIWS, larger helideck and bigger hangar
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Thu Dec 06, 2018 6:17 am

    To be honest a 76.2mm gun would not be that useful... corvettes operating with the vessel with 100mm guns would be vastly more useful in that regard.

    Perhaps they could use a dedicated NGS boat with rocket artillery and coalition gun mounts to provide dedicated fire support.

    I agree though that more helos, more space for helos, and CIWS are rather more important... especially as those helos could deliver support fire too.

    Perhaps what they should do is design a Ka-226T that can operate unmanned and as a centrally mounted weapons pod with guns and rockets and bombs.

    Without the crew position most of the weight of the aircraft could be divided between fuel and weapons... ground units could have it on call...

    It could carry two 500kg bombs that are set to explode as a self destruct system if it is shot down and lands in enemy territory... when enemy weapons are not so effective it could also use them as bombs if needed too.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Hole on Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:54 am

    It has CIWS. You mean missiles. Some Pantsir on the foredeck.

    The parking area in the middle could be used for more helis. Or drones.

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