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    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class

    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:26 am

    The then-president of USC Roman Trotsenko said in Apr 2012 that Yantar "won't build new ships under this project any more. It is decided that the new ship will combine attack and landing capabilities".

    I suspect they mean they want a ship that can land troops but also provide support for those landed troops.

    In my opinion that means unguided rocket artillery support and several heavy gun turrets perhaps with UAV spotters?
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    Post  Viktor Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:00 pm

    2 days ago news


    Acting Director General of the Baltic Shipyard "Yantar" Alexander Konovalov
    BDK "Ivan Gren" will be given the Russian Navy with no lag in 2013
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    Post  TheArmenian Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:07 pm

    Speculated location for the RAPTOR craft on the IVAN GREN landing ship:

    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 3 Ezhi1k

    The RAPTOR from Pella Shipyard on sea trials:

    TR1
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    Project 11711: "Ivan Gren" class - Page 3 Empty Ivan Gren landing ship

    Post  TR1 Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:26 pm

    What is clear from that photo is the Navy doesn't really want the Gren at this point.

    MOD procurement is so retarded and schizophrenic.
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    Post  TR1 Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:31 pm

    http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9262/5078628.2c/0_74f2c_b74a57db_orig.gif

    Recent photo.

    No further work has been done on it for months.
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    Post  Viktor Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:28 pm

    Here TR1, they moved the date to 2015 ... whats is the story with Ivan Grean?? Why stalling ... 

    Surrender BDK "Ivan Gren" fleet moved to 2015
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    Post  TR1 Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:54 pm

    Fleet doesn't want it.

    Time wise 2015 is easily achievable, but even if they accept the ship, I don't think they are interested in a second hull at this point.
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    Post  navyfield Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:46 pm

    another failed design bites the dust ,thank god someone with sane mind canceled the sister ship and imported proper french naval technology eg. mistral !
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    Post  TR1 Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:05 pm

    Yeah thank god for huge useless French barges.

    Even worse than Ivan Gren as far as the Russian navy is concerned.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Dec 25, 2013 9:31 pm

    Well we have to get the two french made vessels into Russian service and test them out before we can say they are any more useful than the Ivan Grens, but I suspect they will be more useful due to their increased size and multirole capabilities.

    France is an imperial power from way back so it knows a thing or two about murdering savages in their own country... just like the UK and now the US, so Russia might find such a vessel useful as it becomes a more mobile blue water Navy.  Razz 
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    Post  navyfield Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:24 pm

    first i see no reason to bring up politics like you did so i wont comment and will stick to the topic.
    second ,we already have experience with french mistral in french service and its great.
    It will also be great for Russia in pacific island chain ,black sea ,baltic.
    This move was criticised but it has proven to be a great leap forward for russian naval industry (from construction tech ,propulsion , electronics ....etc.) who lost pace with modern developments in the 90s.
    And there will ofcourse be more mistral class ships built in Russia (and that confirms it was a good decision).
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    Post  TR1 Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:31 pm

    Wow, that is some terrible circular logic, without any specifics.
    What has been so "great" about it in French service? What exactly do French requirments have to do with the Russian navy, in both situation and doctrine?

    Do tell how the Mistral is useful in "pacific islands (LOL)) and baltic.

    Go into details how the buy has modernized Russia's propulsion building ability. Or construction tech. Wopadedo, Baltisky built have of a big steel barge. And? It could do that before.

    And further Mistrals is by no means a fact at this point.

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    Post  George1 Thu Dec 26, 2013 4:16 pm

    Ivan Gren is a landing ship tank. Mistral is a landing helicopter dock. Different ships
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    Post  GarryB Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:06 pm

    first i see no reason to bring up politics like you did so i wont comment and will stick to the topic.

    The Mistral was not designed for the Russians... it has been modified for the Russians but is basically designed for French interests.
    The Russian Navy think, with a few modifications, that it might be useful for them too but we really wont know till they get to test it.

    second ,we already have experience with french mistral in french service and its great.

    Can you provide information about what it has done since it has been in service that no other french platform (or indeed no other Russian platform) could have performed?

    It will also be great for Russia in pacific island chain ,black sea ,baltic.

    It is too big for the Black Sea and Baltic... it will be used in the Pacific and the Northern Fleet and the Arctic.

    This move was criticised but it has proven to be a great leap forward for russian naval industry (from construction tech ,propulsion , electronics ....etc.) who lost pace with modern developments in the 90s.

    You might be able to say such things after the second two vessels are built and the Russians actually make more than 30% of the ships. And that assumes they actually make them.

    Of course you would be wrong as they have also been working with the South Koreans on how a shipyard should really work... the South Koreans could show the French a thing or two in that area.

    I suspect they will make two more because they will want to be sure there are no trojans in them...
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:21 pm

    What effin idiot in the BSF wouldn't want a new modern landing ship for the fleet and thinks the ancient project 775s are enough for amphibious operation there?
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    Post  George1 Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:57 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:What effin idiot in  the BSF wouldn't want a new modern landing ship for the fleet and thinks the ancient project 775s are enough for amphibious operation there?

    i agree, and 3-4 of them would be ideal for the replacement of more old ones Project 1171 Alligator
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    Post  George1 Mon Jan 06, 2014 3:48 pm

    According to Kaliningrad shipyard "Yantar", large landing ship "Ivan Gren" Project 11711 will not be delivered to Russian Navy until 2015
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    Post  runaway Tue Jan 07, 2014 1:16 pm

    George1 wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:What effin idiot in  the BSF wouldn't want a new modern landing ship for the fleet and thinks the ancient project 775s are enough for amphibious operation there?

    i agree, and 3-4 of them would be ideal for the replacement of more old ones Project 1171 Alligator

    And i cant see the Mistral being " to big" for baltic or black sea either. A big landing ship with helos should be better than small landing ships with limited capabilities and in higher sea states.

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    Post  Admin Tue Jan 07, 2014 2:46 pm

    TR1 wrote:Wow, that is some terrible circular logic, without any specifics.
    What has been so "great" about it in French service? What exactly do French requirments have to do with the Russian navy, in both situation and doctrine?

    Do tell how the Mistral is useful in "pacific islands (LOL)) and baltic.

    Go into details how the buy has modernized Russia's propulsion building ability. Or construction tech. Wopadedo, Baltisky built have of a big steel barge. And? It could do that before.

    And further Mistrals is by no means a fact at this point.

    Mistral is far more than a floating barge, it is a forward deployed Army Air Corps base as well as hospital and command that can go anywhere.  

    In French service, the Mistral class has supported both combat and humanitarian missions numerous times. It provided air support, EVAC, SAR, heavy lift and medical missions.  It is the most useful naval ship in French service.    

    It gives us the ability to threaten any neighbour who might have designs on our periphery as well as projecting force globally.  Not to mention finally give the marines the ability to conduct joint operations with distant allies.

    Mistral is far and above anything we have.  Maybe we could have completed one ourselves, but it is cheaper to buy it off the French.  

    We have paid $800 million already, it is a fact to that point. The experienced gained in its construction is proper process of modular shipbuilding which is something we do not do well and has both military and commercial applications.
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    Post  navyfield Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:54 pm

    tell that to garry and tr1 ,they have their biased heads in clouds it seems  lol! 
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    Post  TR1 Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:19 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    TR1 wrote:Wow, that is some terrible circular logic, without any specifics.
    What has been so "great" about it in French service? What exactly do French requirments have to do with the Russian navy, in both situation and doctrine?

    Do tell how the Mistral is useful in "pacific islands (LOL)) and baltic.

    Go into details how the buy has modernized Russia's propulsion building ability. Or construction tech. Wopadedo, Baltisky built have of a big steel barge. And? It could do that before.

    And further Mistrals is by no means a fact at this point.

    Mistral is far more than a floating barge, it is a forward deployed Army Air Corps base as well as hospital and command that can go anywhere.  

    In French service, the Mistral class has supported both combat and humanitarian missions numerous times. It provided air support, EVAC, SAR, heavy lift and medical missions.  It is the most useful naval ship in French service.    

    It gives us the ability to threaten any neighbour who might have designs on our periphery as well as projecting force globally.  Not to mention finally give the marines the ability to conduct joint operations with distant allies.

    Mistral is far and above anything we have.  Maybe we could have completed one ourselves, but it is cheaper to buy it off the French.  

    We have paid $800 million already, it is a fact to that point. The experienced gained in its construction is proper process of modular shipbuilding which is something we do not do well and has both military and commercial applications.  

    Oh there is no doubt it is far more capable than anything Russian- of the type. Note I have never said Russia should try to build a Mistral equivalent on its own- that would be even stupider.

    The question is is it a smart use of resources when the Russian Navy badly needs to replace escort and major surface combatants.
    I think, it is not, at all.
    In fact, in terms of doctrine and actual Russian Navy operational realities, the utility of the ships is debatable to say the least.

    Further, there is little proof of the massive "learning" from the Mistral that everyone claims Russian shipbuilding has received.
    Hell, the French did not even hand over the technology for the Zenit control system (pretty much the only thing from the ships the Russian Navy really wants) with 2 hulls - we have to buy FOUR to get that!

    The whole thing smells of massive corruption potential, typical of many Serdukov era deals.
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    Post  GarryB Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:41 am

    What effin idiot in the BSF wouldn't want a new modern landing ship for the fleet and thinks the ancient project 775s are enough for amphibious operation there?

    Why would you want to put such a large target in such a small "lake"?

    They would not need Mistral for operations against Georgia... they didn't need Mistral for operations against Georgia, while against the other NATo countries in the Black Sea... which exactly can you see such a vessel actually being of military use?


    (Hint- Such conflicts will be nuclear and will not require amphibious operations).

    Basing two Mistrals in the Pacific and two in the Northern Fleet means access to the two main oceans on the planet including the largest, in places of importance to Russia... ie ASIA and ARCTIC.
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    Post  medo Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:45 am

    Anyone know if Russia will order additional 2 Mistrals for Northern fleet?
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    Post  KomissarBojanchev Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    What effin idiot in the BSF wouldn't want a new modern landing ship for the fleet and thinks the ancient project 775s are enough for amphibious operation there?

    Why would you want to put such a large target in such a small "lake"?

    They would not need Mistral for operations against Georgia... they didn't need Mistral for operations against Georgia, while against the other NATo countries in the Black Sea... which exactly can you see such a vessel actually being of military use?


    (Hint- Such conflicts will be nuclear and will not require amphibious operations).

    Basing two Mistrals in the Pacific and two in the Northern Fleet means access to the two main oceans on the planet including the largest, in places of importance to Russia... ie ASIA and ARCTIC.

    I'm talking about the ivan gren being rejected not about the mistral Rolling Eyes
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    Post  GarryB Thu Jan 09, 2014 3:26 am

    Anyone know if Russia will order additional 2 Mistrals for Northern fleet?

    Unless there is a fatal flaw in the design the French haven't found yet or something substantial changes in Russias policy to the arctic I think the second pair of ships will be more practical use for Russia than the ones in the Pacific guarding the Kurile islands.

    I think Russia will get a lot of good will from Pacific Island states if they plan good will visits that offer health care, but most of the islands are poor and rely on colonial support... which would be jeopardised if they start looking at Russia.

    Of course two main issues for Pacific Islands that Russia could help with are fresh water supplies and electrical power generation. The nuclear power plant ships they are developing would be very useful for most Pacific Island nations where diesel generators are the main alternative, though solar and wind power also offer potential it would have to be without spoiling the environment as wind farms will ruin the tourist business there.

    I'm talking about the ivan gren being rejected not about the mistral

    My mistake...

    Regarding the Ivan Gren, I have heard they want something with much more range and endurance so that it could be based in the BSF or the Baltic but operate over long ranges for long periods of time.

    In other words a proper ocean going vessel that could go to the med or even africa if needed.

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