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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon May 07, 2018 7:00 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Ford one was year late, it's the first of a new class of AC when Russia lays down it's first AC we will see how mnay delays they have.

    The Zumwalt where to be built in three years each they are in time, the LCS are also on time.

    Do not lie because is literally what you are doing.

    He is lying? but are you being honest?

    I mean the worlds last superpower spending 700 billion dollars a year on attack... oops, sorry defence... and the sky is falling because Russia doesn't get an unimportant ship out on schedule, but when the best navy in the world, of the worlds only super power, and the best ship makers in the world, with no sanctions, money fucking thrown at them, no supplier problems... they haven't had to set up new production facilities in another country because a country let them down, or jumped ship... they are having problems and delays with the most critical ship design in their inventory... cut the shit talk.

    Your Whine cellar must be enormous, but it only contains Russian Whine doesn't it?

    Oh to be fair you do give some credit where it is due, but the US never seems to do any wrong...

    "Ford, Zumwalt, LCS are not build in time."

    Yes he is lying, okay sorry he was kinda truthful ford was about a year and half late, still lying on everything else.

    Was I saying the LCS were worth it? no I wasn't I aid despite them being stupid ships they are being made on time.



    "Oh to be fair you do give some credit where it is due, but the US never seems to do any wrong..."

    I believe I just said the LCS where stupid ships but I am saying the US never does anything wrong? I have said Russia is better then the US in areas and more... Garry mouth shut walk the other way, I really don't like dealing you how you like to try and twist words to fit your narrative. I am not wrong in what you said, I dont need to deal with some keyboard warrior who is trying to make it seem like he is right by twisting things.

    I don't mind a fair discussion but Garry I cannot have one with you, you are to blinded by your fanboyism, it's why I virtually ignore you now.

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    Hole

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Hole on Mon May 07, 2018 10:24 pm

    A last time. The ships are delivered "in time" (whatever that means, did someone see the contract?), but they are not ready. The Zumwalt can barely swim. Its engine broke down twice on the first journey. Its faults will be dealt with in the next years. Like the british carrier. It was "built in time" just to be back in the dock a week later, because the propeller shaft leaked. Its systems are also not ready, but technically its part of the glorious british navy.

    Russia could have done the same with the Gren and the Gorshkov. Declare them fit and solve the problems later. But they don´t do that anymore.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 08, 2018 11:44 am

    Was I saying the LCS were worth it? no I wasn't I aid despite them being stupid ships they are being made on time.

    So what you are saying is that the LCS was made on time but was a fucking waste of time and money...

    Perhaps maybe if they had reevaluated the design half way through and changed the basic plans... it would have caused huge delays and probably horrendous price increases but at least they would have gotten a ship that was more useful... Hmmm think about that for a minute...

    I believe I just said the LCS where stupid ships but I am saying the US never does anything wrong?

    I don't see you endlessly posting on US threads about how useless the LCS is and how, while it is in service it is still of no use...

    I have said Russia is better then the US in areas and more... Garry mouth shut walk the other way, I really don't like dealing you how you like to try and twist words to fit your narrative. I am not wrong in what you said, I dont need to deal with some keyboard warrior who is trying to make it seem like he is right by twisting things.

    You claim to be fair and consistent and you are not. You expect the Russian Navy and Russian shipyards to be better and more efficient than the US navy and shipyards... when they fuck up... you don't say a word, when some report about a delay comes up... even when it is regarding a totally different ship at least one time, you pop up and whinge about the fall of the Russian navy and how the Russian shipyards can't build ships anymore.


    I don't mind a fair discussion but Garry I cannot have one with you, you are to blinded by your fanboyism, it's why I virtually ignore you now.

    Wish I could do the same. As long as you follow instructions to follow the rules I give you as a mod, you can ignore me all you like, but I am not going to ignore your moaning that the Russians navy is in crisis and needs immediate attention... it is moving in a positive direction and is getting better... and ultimately in 15-20 years is going to be enormously important in driving and supporting the growing Russian economy, but for now it is really not that important... they can take their time getting things right now with the smaller boats and long range anti ship missiles.

    I guess that is what offends you... they don't see the world the same way the US does and does not think the same way the US does... if they have a big powerful navy they need 100K ton super carriers... because that is what the US has and they do everything the right way...

    Russia could have done the same with the Gren and the Gorshkov. Declare them fit and solve the problems later. But they don´t do that anymore.

    Call the western method the Microsoft method of development... leave the last testing cycle to the first customers... because it will keep evolving until it is replaced... and it will keep needing patches and fixes until it is obsolete (code for does not sell well anymore, or you have other things to sell in its place and they are not selling well enough).
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue May 08, 2018 10:31 pm

    I post when there is time, The Russians can make ships just slow as hell and I have said they need to improve that, guys like you, however, don't want to address the problems and pretend everything is peachy.

    REally I have said some Russians designs are great ships, and I have given credit to those ships. I do also say when there is a problem again another lie on your part and more trying to twist the narrative.

    I don't have free time for that, I also happen to think Western fanboys are worse in most cases then Russian ones.

    I'll give you this credit Garry you aren't the worst Russian fanboy I have ever seen.

    I do not expect the russians to match the US but, the delays and problems they have aren't excusable. AGAIN you are twisting my words, can I report your ass over this? you have done this three times so far.

    There is reasonable and then there is unreasonable, I highest suggest you learn the difference.



    God all mghty.....I have SAID dozens of times HERE Russia doesn't NEED a 100k ton supercarrier, that they would do fine with a Kuz sized carrier and four of them. AGAIN TWISTING words.

    You see I was taught to address problems not let them grow and get out of hand and that's the problem russia's shipbuilding industry is having they let these problems grow and grow and do not handle them.

    You prefer to turn a blind eye.

    NOW if you really wanna continue this chat with me you can message me on here, this board isn't for me and you going at eachother.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 09, 2018 2:04 am

    The Russians can make ships just slow as hell and I have said they need to improve that, guys like you, however, don't want to address the problems and pretend everything is peachy.

    But you have not said why they need to pump out ships faster... do you think spending 10 times more on their navy and getting lots of ships in service now will solve their problems?

    What would they even do with 20 new frigates right now?

    Probably retire a couple of older ships and upgrade some other ones.

    So really the cost of building 20 new frigates is rather hard to justify...

    REally I have said some Russians designs are great ships, and I have given credit to those ships. I do also say when there is a problem again another lie on your part and more trying to twist the narrative.

    I keep telling you and you keep ignoring me... what is this fixation you have with wanting Russia to be pumping out ships like China? Or the US?

    Russia is not China and is not the US.

    China is pumping out ships because it realises that sooner or later it is going to be facing the US Navy in the Pacific so they need a decent naval force to stand up to that.

    Russia knows fighting the US is suicide for both parties and a big navy could bankrupt them quicker than the big military is bankrupting the US...

    I'll give you this credit Garry you aren't the worst Russian fanboy I have ever seen.

    And I am adult enough to give you credit for being mature and not petty or abusive. The fact that you come here to an "enemy" web forum shows you at least have an interest to see what other people might think... something the BBC and CNN and Fox News are afraid of... you are only allowed to see both sides of situations that they want you to see.

    I do not expect the russians to match the US but, the delays and problems they have aren't excusable. AGAIN you are twisting my words, can I report your ass over this? you have done this three times so far.

    Words are open to interpretation... you call it twisting... that suggests I am distorting the meaning into something else... I would suggest ambiguity is more the issue and instead of bitching that I am distorting your words why don't you just rephrase what you meant to say so I can understand better what you were trying to say.

    English is a complex language and different words have very similar meanings but often have slightly different slants of meanings at the same time.

    There is reasonable and then there is unreasonable, I highest suggest you learn the difference.

    But that is the problem... reasonable is subjective, not objective. You can say 5 years is too long to develop a brand new multifunction ship class... and that is your opinion. When that ship is not urgently needed and in fact has become surplus to immediate needs during the period of its development and construction it might suddenly become reasonable because it is not worth the money to rapidly finish it... money that could be used on something that is needed.

    You see I was taught to address problems not let them grow and get out of hand and that's the problem russia's shipbuilding industry is having they let these problems grow and grow and do not handle them.

    You prefer to turn a blind eye.

    The Ivan Gren was in one shipyard on one slipway... it is not the reason they don't have 2-3 destroyers and 5-10 frigates in service right now... I don't understand why you think it is even important enough to do something about...

    NOW if you really wanna continue this chat with me you can message me on here, this board isn't for me and you going at eachother.

    Well even if this discussion goes to PM with you and me, I will be having this discussion with all the other people who think the RuN has gone to the dogs because this one ship class has had a few problems.

    BTW I don't remember anyone suggesting the management at the shipyard that made the LCS should be shot, or even fired... hell when British Frigates can't operate in the Med in summer because the sea water is not cold enough to cool its systems there are plenty of problems to go around...
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    Hole

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Hole on Wed May 09, 2018 10:47 am

    Couldn´t resist: according to a new report, the Ford will be operational in 2022, not 2019. All delays together: six years.

    Now some people will say: "It´s a carrier, not a small landing ship." Yup. But California, Texas and New York are still parts of Amiland. The Yard never stopped producing anything for ten years and has never done anyting else than building carriers for the last 70 or 80 years.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed May 09, 2018 11:53 am

    With 20 Gorshkovs Russia can write the history their way. They would have more negotiating power with Turks over Syria, finish Libyan civil war, keep Egypt and N. Sudan friendly, befriend alienated Algeria with regular visits and drills. Army isn't just a war tool.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Hole on Wed May 09, 2018 4:21 pm

    The won´t build 20. Just the six, that are already on the building ways. The f...ing engine debacle costed four years. Now the Navy wants something bigger, it seems.

    I hope the do it with the new ship like they did with the Karakurts, order 18+ from three or four yards.

    Does someone know where the Gren will go? Black Sea?
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Wed May 09, 2018 5:04 pm

    Both Grens go to Black sea...North and East will receive one Priboy each.

    I think they'll make only 4 Gorshkovs and then go on with heavier version like you said.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Thu May 10, 2018 2:01 am

    To put it in perspective the Gorshkov is a frigate.... that equates to the Krivak class during the cold war... they didn't have a huge number of those vessels.

    They might end up with a dozen or so, but if they are making 20 of anything then a destroyer class would be more useful along with say 8 cruisers and two new carriers...
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    verkhoturye51

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Thu May 10, 2018 9:59 am

    Except that Ivans are scalling the game down, with Gorshkovs new light destroyers and Super Gorshkovs new light cruisers and Liders new heavy cruisers. Speed and autonomy isn't comparable to the ships currently in service, but that's the new strategy.

    Ideally, in 25 years Russians would have 2 carriers (East and North), 8 Liders (4 East and 4 North), 15 Super Gorshkovs (1 Baltic, 2 Black sea, 6 East and 6 North) and the frigates.


    Last edited by verkhoturye51 on Thu May 10, 2018 10:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu May 10, 2018 10:02 am

    Hole wrote:Couldn´t resist: according to a new report, the Ford will be operational in 2022, not 2019. All delays together: six years.

    Now some people will say: "It´s a carrier, not a small landing ship." Yup. But California, Texas and New York are still parts of Amiland. The Yard never stopped producing anything for ten years and has never done anyting else than building carriers for the last 70 or 80 years.

    That is major sea trails.....not construction and it won't last until 2022.

    Do I got to correct you every time?
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu May 10, 2018 10:04 am

    Hole wrote:The won´t build 20. Just the six, that are already on the building ways. The f...ing engine debacle costed four years. Now the Navy wants something bigger, it seems.

    I hope the do it with the new ship like they did with the Karakurts, order 18+ from three or four yards.

    Does someone know where the Gren will go? Black Sea?

    It will most likely serve in the BSF yes, officially it is listed has going to that fleet, it will serve has a cargo ship for awhile really.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Hole on Thu May 10, 2018 11:26 am

    2022.
    Six years late.
    Billions over budget.

    According to Bloomberg, the bearing on one engine block broke down. Second time this happens. Not good. For the taxpayer. The "share holder" of the company will be just fine.

    In the end, nobody cares when this ship will be ready. Or not.


    Last edited by Hole on Thu May 10, 2018 5:16 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Hole on Thu May 10, 2018 11:27 am

    GarryB wrote:To put it in perspective the Gorshkov is a frigate.... that equates to the Krivak class during the cold war... they didn't have a huge number of those vessels.

    They might end up with a dozen or so, but if they are making 20 of anything then a destroyer class would be more useful along with say 8 cruisers and two new carriers...

    32 isn´t a huge number for a ship class?
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Hole on Thu May 10, 2018 5:18 pm

    For all this off-topic bla, bla...


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Thu May 10, 2018 5:51 pm

    And here's how the second ship looks like.



    To be put on water in 2/2 of this month and commissioned later this year.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Isos on Thu May 10, 2018 6:23 pm

    verkhoturye51 wrote:And here's how the second ship looks like.

    [img]http://www.navyrecognition.com/images/stories/news/2018/february/project_11711_lst_Petr_Morgunov.jpg[

    To be put on water in 2/2 of this month and commissioned later this year.

    3 years to build it sounds pretty normal. The first was clearly the problem and not the class itself. Maybe they could redesign it with more weapons and replace all the other older ships with this.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  verkhoturye51 on Thu May 10, 2018 7:42 pm

    Isos wrote:
    verkhoturye51 wrote:And here's how the second ship looks like.

    [img]http://www.navyrecognition.com/images/stories/news/2018/february/project_11711_lst_Petr_Morgunov.jpg[

    To be put on water in 2/2 of this month and commissioned later this year.

    3 years to build it sounds pretty normal. The first was clearly the problem and not the class itself. Maybe they could redesign it with more weapons and replace all the other older ships with this.

    I hope no Yantar engeneer is reading this Laughing

    This redesigning is the reason why Russians have only 15 % of their fleet at the sea at any time, while easy-to-maintain standarized US navy has 50 %.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Isos on Thu May 10, 2018 7:54 pm


    This redesigning is the reason why Russians have only 15 % of their fleet at the sea at any time, while easy-to-maintain standarized US navy has 50 %.

    One 100mm gun and 2 MRL on the deck isn't going to change the disponibility of the ship. Landing forces need artillery support to clean the beach.

    US have the money to maintain them.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu May 10, 2018 8:23 pm

    Isos wrote:
    verkhoturye51 wrote:And here's how the second ship looks like.

    [img]http://www.navyrecognition.com/images/stories/news/2018/february/project_11711_lst_Petr_Morgunov.jpg[

    To be put on water in 2/2 of this month and commissioned later this year.

    3 years to build it sounds pretty normal. The first was clearly the problem and not the class itself. Maybe they could redesign it with more weapons and replace all the other older ships with this.

    Even that is very slow for such a class of warships (light and low level of sophistication).
    I'd say max. 2 years would make sense, anything over that is delayed.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 11, 2018 4:22 am

    This redesigning is the reason why Russians have only 15 % of their fleet at the sea at any time, while easy-to-maintain standarized US navy has 50 %.

    Of course, the Russians have 85% of their fleet in maintainence... nothing to do with the US having a global empire to maintain, while the Russian Navy operating mostly coastal except for a few anti piracy operations and a few ships in the med chasing Brit subs around the place...

    And the 32 Krivaks... how long did they actually have 32 in service at one time... they started entering service in the early 1970s, but they also started decommissioning them in the 1990s... are there any even in service now? Maybe a handful... if that.

    Comparing the capabilities of the old Krivaks with a modern version you could replace 32 with 16 easily... and enjoy an enormous increase in performance too.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Hole on Fri May 11, 2018 11:45 am

    The last one were completed in 82, so 32 for roughly ten years.

    Putting them out of service so fast was the idea of Jelzin. Complain to... No  He´s gone for good.

    As the Krivak emerged, the west thought it was "the best multi-purpose destroyer of the world". Not my words.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Fri May 11, 2018 1:38 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    This redesigning is the reason why Russians have only 15 % of their fleet at the sea at any time, while easy-to-maintain standarized US navy has 50 %.

    Of course, the Russians have 85% of their fleet in maintainence... nothing to do with the US having a global empire to maintain, while the Russian Navy operating mostly coastal except for a few anti piracy operations and a few ships in the med chasing Brit subs around the place...

    And the 32 Krivaks... how long did they actually have 32 in service at one time... they started entering service in the early 1970s, but they also started decommissioning them in the 1990s... are there any even in service now?  Maybe a handful... if that.

    Comparing the capabilities of the old Krivaks with a modern version you could replace 32 with 16 easily... and enjoy an enormous increase in performance too.

    Or they could have re-purposed more than 20 of them.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 12, 2018 3:50 am

    As the Krivak emerged, the west thought it was "the best multi-purpose destroyer of the world". Not my words.

    It has never been a destroyer... it has always only been a frigate.

    And what the fuck was multipurpose about any Soviet vessel under 10,000 tons?

    Most of the things that needed a frigate during the cold war the Russians will be using corvettes for.

    For the Soviets the corvettes were little single purpose attack dogs... today they are fully multipurpose short range vessels every bit as useful as a Krivak ever was.

    Krivaks were not multipurpose until the Talwar versions and other developed variants.

    Putting them out of service so fast was the idea of Jelzin. Complain to... No He´s gone for good.

    Why complain... what could have been done with them?

    They went from having a huge navy to needing a much smaller one, so it makes sense to get rid of a lot of vessels... it is much the same as on land... they didn't need hundreds of thousands of armoured vehicles when most of them needed replacing anyway...


    Or they could have re-purposed more than 20 of them.

    They could have... but why?

    So 15% can be at sea and 85% of them sit at the pier?

    With 20+ more vessels that would have been 10% at sea and 90% at pier...


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