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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TheArmenian on Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:39 am

    This is what happens when you do not do enough testing:

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17185/the-german-navy-has-decided-to-return-their-new-frigate-to-the-ship-store-this-Christmas

    ...this is the first time the German Navy has returned a ship to a shipbuilder after delivery... wrote:
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:48 pm

    The issue with Ivan Gren is why actually Russia Navy chose to go ahead with It in past years, notwithstanding the fact it was no longer tailored for future needs and the yard had some efficiency problem going beyond funds.

    It is a new ship so it is better than nothing... even if it takes a while to work out what they want to do with it it can still be useful...
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:32 am

    What will replace the alligator class landing ships in the Russian navy?
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    ZoA

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  ZoA on Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:36 pm

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:What will replace the alligator class landing ships in the Russian navy?

    Given how it's going now:


    Or more seriously random civilian ships acquired on the second had market, similarity how they solved logistic issue for Syria by buying bunch of random old Turkish ships.

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:54 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    The issue with Ivan Gren is why actually Russia Navy chose to go ahead with It in past years, notwithstanding the fact it was no longer tailored for future needs and the yard had some efficiency problem going beyond funds.

    It is a new ship so it is better than nothing... even if it takes a while to work out what they want to do with it it can still be useful...

    Yes, at last it will be a new ship.

    Still I think some alternative solution could have been pursued some years ago.

    As an example, far before the Ukraine's case and the break of the Mistral's dealing, France to sustain its military yard purchased a third Mistral itself and offloaded some costs selling the two Foudre LSDs one to Chile in 2011 and the second to Brazil in 2015 on the cheap.

    Allegedly, Chile paid the Foudre less than 100 million dollars, and it took only few months to transfer the ship.

    It could have been a real good deal for Russia, even with no adaptations to its requirements.

    As China with the former Varyag, Russian Navy could have played with it studying it in deep, and then finalizing a derived project tailored on its own requirements.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:56 pm

    Can you put military radar, 76-152mm guns, MLRS and short range AAMs on said civilian ships? Also, Given that the Gren is so huge I'm completely appaled why they didn't think of putting any MLRS, Missile, Cannon on it while ships half that size(Ropucha) have it.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Isos on Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:45 am

    Peŕrier wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    The issue with Ivan Gren is why actually Russia Navy chose to go ahead with It in past years, notwithstanding the fact it was no longer tailored for future needs and the yard had some efficiency problem going beyond funds.

    It is a new ship so it is better than nothing... even if it takes a while to work out what they want to do with it it can still be useful...

    Yes, at last it will be a new ship.

    Still I think some alternative solution could have been pursued some years ago.

    As an example, far before the Ukraine's case and the break of the Mistral's dealing, France to sustain its military yard purchased a third Mistral itself and offloaded some costs selling the two Foudre LSDs one to Chile in 2011 and the second to Brazil in 2015 on the cheap.

    Allegedly, Chile paid the Foudre less than 100 million dollars, and it took only few months to transfer the ship.

    It could have been a real good deal for Russia, even with no adaptations to its requirements.

    As China with the former Varyag, Russian Navy could have played with it studying it in deep, and then finalizing a derived project tailored on its own requirements.

    That's stupid. Russia went for mistral because of the transfert of tech. Buying two old ships would have been waste of time and money as we saw since they bought mistrale they didn't need those ship till today so it's for the best. And now they kept the money and have the ToT from mistrals...

    Ivan Gren is a good replacement for similar older ships. Mistral like ships are a new tool. They will have 2-4 of them so they are not meant to replace 15 armed landing ships but complete it.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Isos on Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:49 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Can you put military radar, 76-152mm guns, MLRS and short range AAMs on said civilian ships? Also, Given that the Gren is so huge I'm completely appaled why they didn't think of putting any MLRS, Missile, Cannon on it while ships half that size(Ropucha) have it.

    It has two ka-29 that can carry rocket pod and clean the beach from mines and so on. Those ship will probably be escorted by sovromenys armed with 130 guns which is one of its main role and thats why it h1s so big guns or future replacement.
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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:52 am

    Isos wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Can you put military radar, 76-152mm guns, MLRS and short range AAMs on said civilian ships? Also, Given that the Gren is so huge I'm completely appaled why they didn't think of putting any MLRS, Missile, Cannon on it while ships half that size(Ropucha) have it.

    It has two ka-29 that can carry rocket pod and clean the beach from mines and so on. Those ship will probably be escorted by sovromenys armed with 130 guns which is one of its main role and thats why it h1s so big guns or future replacement.

    Sovremennys are not enough and are on their way out. Also, what if the enemy has AA what then happens to the precious Ka-29's? What if there's no kerosene for them? What of the flight deck is damaged by shore arty?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 24, 2018 7:52 am

    Still I think some alternative solution could have been pursued some years ago.

    Ivan Gren is a small river boat turned unsuccessfully into a sea going boat.., developing something else would be even more of a waste because you still have no Mistral and no use for Ivan Gren but you now have another design you have made to fill a gap that has not been filled so far so does it ever need filling?
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    George1

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:54 pm

    Αfter the new problem with Ivan Gren is there any estimate about the new time delivery from any MoD source?

    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Peŕrier on Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:34 pm

    Foudre was and still is not anche old ship.

    As a ship, It was around 10 years old when sold to Chile.

    As kind of ship, she is an LSD, i.e. the standard in large scale amphibious assault.

    As old school LST unload a large number of men and vehicoles beaching themselves, an LST unload them through a large number of landing crafts.

    Far from being an old kind of ship, It is one amongst the missing capabilities in amphibious warfare of Russian Navy.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:40 pm

    Russian Navy to get large amphibious assault ship by late spring

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/989312
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    Kimppis

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Kimppis on Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:25 pm

    I find it kind of funny that the article has been shared almost 200 times on Facebook, which seems to quite a lot for the site. Or is Ivan Gren actually a proper meme at this point? Smile The headline makes it sound like they're talking about a major ship or something. Laughing It does mention that it has been under construction for a very long time, but I still wonder how many readers actually realize that...
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    runaway

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  runaway on Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:16 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    Still I think some alternative solution could have been pursued some years ago.

    Ivan Gren is a small river boat turned unsuccessfully into a sea going boat.., developing something else would be even more of a waste because you still have no Mistral and no use for Ivan Gren but you now have another design you have made to fill a gap that has not been filled so far so does it ever need filling?

    Why on earth would they build a big LST based on a small river boat ? That makes no sense...

    The second ship, the Morgunov is also supposed to be commisioned in 2018. And lets face it, landing ships is a luxury for a land power such as russia, they won the WW2 without them... Smile


    marat

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  marat on Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:08 am

    runaway wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Still I think some alternative solution could have been pursued some years ago.

    Ivan Gren is a small river boat turned unsuccessfully into a sea going boat.., developing something else would be even more of a waste because you still have no Mistral and no use for Ivan Gren but you now have another design you have made to fill a gap that has not been filled so far so does it ever need filling?

    Why on earth would they build a big LST based on a small river boat ? That makes no sense...

    The second ship, the Morgunov is also supposed to be commisioned in 2018. And lets face it, landing ships is a luxury for a land power such as russia, they won the WW2 without them... Smile


    They used a sea landings quite much in WW2, thanks to one of them they have Kuril islands now.

    Also in next war Russia would probably prefer not to fight on their land, as last time (in ww2) it cost them to much.
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    kvs

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  kvs on Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:10 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:This is what happens when you do not do enough testing:

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17185/the-german-navy-has-decided-to-return-their-new-frigate-to-the-ship-store-this-Christmas


    Wow, what a POS.

    Actually, it is poor construction standards. Testing is not supposed to fix problems like listing. If a shipyard can't properly balance
    the mass of a ship, then it should not be in the ship construction business.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:10 am

    On the large amphibious ships of Project 11711, the engines will be interchanged

    According to the web resource Mil.Press FlotProm, the problems with the backward operation of the large landing craft of Project 11711 type "Ivan Gren" are planned to be solved by rearranging the diesels. Mil.Press FlotProm was informed about this by an industry source familiar with the situation.

    Diesel engines 16ЧН26 / 26 large amphibious ship Project 11711 "Peter Morgunov" will be interchanged, the source added. "The right and left engines will be rearranged to the left and right side, respectively." This will change the nature of the rotation of the screws and eliminate the problem of controllability when reversing, "he said.



    The source added that in case of successful tests at Morgunov, the profile state commission will make a decision about similar changes on the main ship Ivan Gren. According to him, this will happen after the transfer of the ship to the fleet, which was transferred to May.

    The press service of "Yantar" correspondent Mil.Press FlotProm confirmed this information, but refrained from the details.

    State testing "Grena" in late 2017 suspended, including because of problems with the reverse. Descent to the water "Morgunova" planned for May.

    According to the engineer of PJSC "Zvezda" Alexander Arkhipov, the chief designer of the promising Russian diesel M150 "Pulsar", the rearrangement of engines is a complex process and can take up to several months. At the same time, Arkhipov allowed the possibility of changing the diesel in some places.

    A source at the Kolomna plant, engaged in marine diesel engines, told the publication that he was not yet aware of the situation.


    Mil.Press Help FlotProm

    "Ivan Gren" and "Peter Morgunov" - large amphibious ships project 11711, developed by the Nevsky Design Bureau. The main BDC was laid in the Baltic Yantar Shipyard in December 2004, and was launched only in May 2012. The transfer of the "Grena" to the fleet was repeatedly postponed.

    With a body length of 120 meters and a width of 16.5 meters, the displacement of the BDK project 11711 is 5,000 tons. The speed is up to 18 knots. The crew is 100 people. The ship can carry on board 13 tanks or 36 infantry fighting vehicles, as well as up to 300 paratroopers.

    The DB11 of project 11711 is equipped with two diesel-reverse gear units DRRA3700 with a diesel engine of modification 10D49 (16ЧН26 / 26) produced by the Kolomna plant. They are designed for use as part of the main power ship installation to work on a propeller of a fixed pitch.

    The ships are armed with two 30 mm six-barrel artillery AK-630 and one dual AK-630M-2. The search and rescue helicopter Ka-27 or the transport-combat helicopter Ka-29 is based on the deck.



    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3102120.html

    hoom

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  hoom on Sat Apr 14, 2018 11:09 am

    Drama continues with Ivan Gren pwnd
    https://flot.com/2018/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%88%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%8F55/
    A Ka-29 practicing night chopper operations off IG crashed, both pilots dead silent

    According to https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%88%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%8F56/ commissioning is due 7th May & won't be affected.

    T-47

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  T-47 on Sat Apr 14, 2018 3:32 pm

    hoom wrote:Drama continues with Ivan Gren pwnd
    https://flot.com/2018/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%88%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%8F55/
    A Ka-29 practicing night chopper operations off IG crashed, both pilots dead silent

    According to https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%88%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%8F56/ commissioning is due 7th May & won't be affected.

    Ouch RIP pale
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:24 pm

    T-47 wrote:
    hoom wrote:Drama continues with Ivan Gren pwnd
    https://flot.com/2018/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%88%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%8F55/
    A Ka-29 practicing night chopper operations off IG crashed, both pilots dead silent

    According to https://flotprom.ru/2018/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%88%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%8F56/ commissioning is due 7th May & won't be affected.

    Ouch RIP pale

    FFS with this stupid boat angry
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 15, 2018 1:40 am

    No ejection seats in that model Kamov unfortunately... RIP to the crew.

    But that hardly has anything to do with the Ivan Gren itself... unless it chased after the helicopter after it took off and rammed it...
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:49 am

    KiloGolf wrote:FFS with this stupid boat angry

    Don't be willfully stupid...  How the fuck does resourcing, build and commissioning problems with the Gren possibly have anything to do with an aviation accident?

    Some people just hate so strongly that rational thought eludes them...

    hoom

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  hoom on Sun Apr 15, 2018 9:09 am

    How the fuck does resourcing, build and commissioning problems with the Gren possibly have anything to do with an aviation accident?
    Well mariners are notoriously superstitious, I think its pretty likely IG will have a reputation as an unlucky ship.
    On the bright side they've progressed to doing night chopper ops & the crash doesn't appear to have been due to an issue with the design of IG.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:36 am

    I think its pretty likely IG will have a reputation as an unlucky ship.

    It will if everything bad that happens is considered to be its fault.


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