Military Forum for Russian and Global Defence Issues


    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Share
    avatar
    TheArmenian

    Posts : 1756
    Points : 1913
    Join date : 2011-09-14

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun 21 Jan 2018, 20:39

    This is what happens when you do not do enough testing:

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17185/the-german-navy-has-decided-to-return-their-new-frigate-to-the-ship-store-this-Christmas

    ...this is the first time the German Navy has returned a ship to a shipbuilder after delivery... wrote:
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17213
    Points : 17819
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 13:48

    The issue with Ivan Gren is why actually Russia Navy chose to go ahead with It in past years, notwithstanding the fact it was no longer tailored for future needs and the yard had some efficiency problem going beyond funds.

    It is a new ship so it is better than nothing... even if it takes a while to work out what they want to do with it it can still be useful...


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1320
    Points : 1485
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon 22 Jan 2018, 21:32

    What will replace the alligator class landing ships in the Russian navy?
    avatar
    ZoA

    Posts : 57
    Points : 65
    Join date : 2017-08-20

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  ZoA on Tue 23 Jan 2018, 07:36

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:What will replace the alligator class landing ships in the Russian navy?

    Given how it's going now:


    Or more seriously random civilian ships acquired on the second had market, similarity how they solved logistic issue for Syria by buying bunch of random old Turkish ships.

    Peŕrier

    Posts : 215
    Points : 215
    Join date : 2017-10-15

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Peŕrier on Tue 23 Jan 2018, 10:54

    GarryB wrote:
    The issue with Ivan Gren is why actually Russia Navy chose to go ahead with It in past years, notwithstanding the fact it was no longer tailored for future needs and the yard had some efficiency problem going beyond funds.

    It is a new ship so it is better than nothing... even if it takes a while to work out what they want to do with it it can still be useful...

    Yes, at last it will be a new ship.

    Still I think some alternative solution could have been pursued some years ago.

    As an example, far before the Ukraine's case and the break of the Mistral's dealing, France to sustain its military yard purchased a third Mistral itself and offloaded some costs selling the two Foudre LSDs one to Chile in 2011 and the second to Brazil in 2015 on the cheap.

    Allegedly, Chile paid the Foudre less than 100 million dollars, and it took only few months to transfer the ship.

    It could have been a real good deal for Russia, even with no adaptations to its requirements.

    As China with the former Varyag, Russian Navy could have played with it studying it in deep, and then finalizing a derived project tailored on its own requirements.
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1320
    Points : 1485
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue 23 Jan 2018, 10:56

    Can you put military radar, 76-152mm guns, MLRS and short range AAMs on said civilian ships? Also, Given that the Gren is so huge I'm completely appaled why they didn't think of putting any MLRS, Missile, Cannon on it while ships half that size(Ropucha) have it.
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 1215
    Points : 1213
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Isos on Tue 23 Jan 2018, 15:45

    Peŕrier wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    The issue with Ivan Gren is why actually Russia Navy chose to go ahead with It in past years, notwithstanding the fact it was no longer tailored for future needs and the yard had some efficiency problem going beyond funds.

    It is a new ship so it is better than nothing... even if it takes a while to work out what they want to do with it it can still be useful...

    Yes, at last it will be a new ship.

    Still I think some alternative solution could have been pursued some years ago.

    As an example, far before the Ukraine's case and the break of the Mistral's dealing, France to sustain its military yard purchased a third Mistral itself and offloaded some costs selling the two Foudre LSDs one to Chile in 2011 and the second to Brazil in 2015 on the cheap.

    Allegedly, Chile paid the Foudre less than 100 million dollars, and it took only few months to transfer the ship.

    It could have been a real good deal for Russia, even with no adaptations to its requirements.

    As China with the former Varyag, Russian Navy could have played with it studying it in deep, and then finalizing a derived project tailored on its own requirements.

    That's stupid. Russia went for mistral because of the transfert of tech. Buying two old ships would have been waste of time and money as we saw since they bought mistrale they didn't need those ship till today so it's for the best. And now they kept the money and have the ToT from mistrals...

    Ivan Gren is a good replacement for similar older ships. Mistral like ships are a new tool. They will have 2-4 of them so they are not meant to replace 15 armed landing ships but complete it.
    avatar
    Isos

    Posts : 1215
    Points : 1213
    Join date : 2015-11-06

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Isos on Tue 23 Jan 2018, 15:49

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Can you put military radar, 76-152mm guns, MLRS and short range AAMs on said civilian ships? Also, Given that the Gren is so huge I'm completely appaled why they didn't think of putting any MLRS, Missile, Cannon on it while ships half that size(Ropucha) have it.

    It has two ka-29 that can carry rocket pod and clean the beach from mines and so on. Those ship will probably be escorted by sovromenys armed with 130 guns which is one of its main role and thats why it h1s so big guns or future replacement.
    avatar
    KomissarBojanchev

    Posts : 1320
    Points : 1485
    Join date : 2012-08-05
    Age : 20
    Location : Varna, Bulgaria

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue 23 Jan 2018, 16:52

    Isos wrote:
    KomissarBojanchev wrote:Can you put military radar, 76-152mm guns, MLRS and short range AAMs on said civilian ships? Also, Given that the Gren is so huge I'm completely appaled why they didn't think of putting any MLRS, Missile, Cannon on it while ships half that size(Ropucha) have it.

    It has two ka-29 that can carry rocket pod and clean the beach from mines and so on. Those ship will probably be escorted by sovromenys armed with 130 guns which is one of its main role and thats why it h1s so big guns or future replacement.

    Sovremennys are not enough and are on their way out. Also, what if the enemy has AA what then happens to the precious Ka-29's? What if there's no kerosene for them? What of the flight deck is damaged by shore arty?
    avatar
    GarryB

    Posts : 17213
    Points : 17819
    Join date : 2010-03-30
    Location : New Zealand

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Tue 23 Jan 2018, 22:52

    Still I think some alternative solution could have been pursued some years ago.

    Ivan Gren is a small river boat turned unsuccessfully into a sea going boat.., developing something else would be even more of a waste because you still have no Mistral and no use for Ivan Gren but you now have another design you have made to fill a gap that has not been filled so far so does it ever need filling?


    _________________
    “The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion […] but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.”

    ― Samuel P. Huntington, The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 11069
    Points : 11546
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 04:54

    Αfter the new problem with Ivan Gren is there any estimate about the new time delivery from any MoD source?


    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov


    Peŕrier

    Posts : 215
    Points : 215
    Join date : 2017-10-15

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Peŕrier on Wed 24 Jan 2018, 08:34

    Foudre was and still is not anche old ship.

    As a ship, It was around 10 years old when sold to Chile.

    As kind of ship, she is an LSD, i.e. the standard in large scale amphibious assault.

    As old school LST unload a large number of men and vehicoles beaching themselves, an LST unload them through a large number of landing crafts.

    Far from being an old kind of ship, It is one amongst the missing capabilities in amphibious warfare of Russian Navy.
    avatar
    George1

    Posts : 11069
    Points : 11546
    Join date : 2011-12-22
    Location : Greece

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Sat 10 Feb 2018, 13:40

    Russian Navy to get large amphibious assault ship by late spring

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/989312


    _________________
    "There's no smoke without fire.", Georgy Zhukov

    avatar
    Kimppis

    Posts : 419
    Points : 425
    Join date : 2014-12-23

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Kimppis on Sat 10 Feb 2018, 14:25

    I find it kind of funny that the article has been shared almost 200 times on Facebook, which seems to quite a lot for the site. Or is Ivan Gren actually a proper meme at this point? Smile The headline makes it sound like they're talking about a major ship or something. Laughing It does mention that it has been under construction for a very long time, but I still wonder how many readers actually realize that...
    avatar
    runaway

    Posts : 369
    Points : 390
    Join date : 2010-11-12
    Location : Sweden

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  runaway on Wed 14 Feb 2018, 03:16

    GarryB wrote:
    Still I think some alternative solution could have been pursued some years ago.

    Ivan Gren is a small river boat turned unsuccessfully into a sea going boat.., developing something else would be even more of a waste because you still have no Mistral and no use for Ivan Gren but you now have another design you have made to fill a gap that has not been filled so far so does it ever need filling?

    Why on earth would they build a big LST based on a small river boat ? That makes no sense...

    The second ship, the Morgunov is also supposed to be commisioned in 2018. And lets face it, landing ships is a luxury for a land power such as russia, they won the WW2 without them... Smile


    marat

    Posts : 168
    Points : 170
    Join date : 2015-04-26

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  marat on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 01:08

    runaway wrote:
    GarryB wrote:
    Still I think some alternative solution could have been pursued some years ago.

    Ivan Gren is a small river boat turned unsuccessfully into a sea going boat.., developing something else would be even more of a waste because you still have no Mistral and no use for Ivan Gren but you now have another design you have made to fill a gap that has not been filled so far so does it ever need filling?

    Why on earth would they build a big LST based on a small river boat ? That makes no sense...

    The second ship, the Morgunov is also supposed to be commisioned in 2018. And lets face it, landing ships is a luxury for a land power such as russia, they won the WW2 without them... Smile


    They used a sea landings quite much in WW2, thanks to one of them they have Kuril islands now.

    Also in next war Russia would probably prefer not to fight on their land, as last time (in ww2) it cost them to much.
    avatar
    kvs

    Posts : 3407
    Points : 3532
    Join date : 2014-09-10
    Location : Canuckistan

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  kvs on Thu 15 Feb 2018, 12:10

    TheArmenian wrote:This is what happens when you do not do enough testing:

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17185/the-german-navy-has-decided-to-return-their-new-frigate-to-the-ship-store-this-Christmas


    Wow, what a POS.

    Actually, it is poor construction standards. Testing is not supposed to fix problems like listing. If a shipyard can't properly balance
    the mass of a ship, then it should not be in the ship construction business.

    Sponsored content

    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Wed 21 Feb 2018, 18:50