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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:23 am

    Not sure why people can't understand this (or won't accept it).... scratch personal agendas ignoring inconvenient facts & opposing viewpoints?

    People who have never managed a project don't realise that when you plan things are not and cannot be set in stone... before they spent money paying for two Mistral class ships the Ivan Gren was a priority because of 2008-08-08, but after paying France to supply two ships of which they built portions of the hull there was suddenly no urgent need for Ivan gren or anything like it.

    The experience of getting the full plans for the Mistral and a good look at all her systems their ideas of what they want in a landing ship have likely changed... before Mistral I rather doubt there were any plans regarding the Ka-52K for instance.

    Changes in plans mean deadlines shift... the backstabbing Frogs means a new solution needs to be developed but it is rather unlikely to still be the Ivan Gren as a lot has changed since that was started.

    There is usually an order to things when managing a project.... some things can't start until other things are completed and delays on one thing will effect the schedule of all the other processes. Some processes can take place in parallel, but most have a specific order... and of course it also all depends on sub contractors coming in on time and on budget.

    Again no new electronics are on this ship or any other equipment. so what the hell are you talking about "New" again this is stuff they tested before and are using SHIPS with VLS and more complex weapon systems took much less time to test.

    So this vessel is unique amongst new build Russian vessels because it has ancient Soviet electronics and sensors and systems?

    Really?

    You don't seem to understand and that's fine, the problem isn't that they are testing the ship the problem is the sheer incompetence behind how long this is taking because it should not be taking this long. God forbid tho Garry you comment on Incompetence on the part of the Russians.

    The US has had lots of programmes to replace the M16 as the US service rifle... is it incompetence that they are still using it in a carbine form?

    There were plans for vehicle families to replace the Bradley and Abrams but still nothing in sight.

    They have needed a new inflight refuelling tanker and have dithered for the last few decades regarding that... Incompetence?

    The Ivan gren is not an important vessel, yet still you whine that the sky is falling because it is still be tested and not on the front line winning the war against ISIS and NATO and other terrorist organisations....

    The fact alone that you think it is JUST a landing vessel, so it should not take long is amusing... do you not see the other side of the argument... it is just a landing vessel so what is the hurry?
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:50 am

    GarryB wrote:The US has had lots of programmes to replace the M16 as the US service rifle...

    Never happened. They did trials but never went ahead to procure/build anything.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:37 pm

    Ahuh never said it uses soviet era electronics the stuff it has was been fielded on their newer vessels already the point of the statement was The Gren isn't testing any brand new systems, So what else do you wanna say I never said Garry.

    Also yes the Us has had programs but they never went ahead with a lot of them, they where just field tests and trails. Anything we did decide to build we made lots of it.

    Ships, however, are different from tanks and rifles, this is a completely different point. I've fielded test some guns and what not for procurement plans.

    Again your making excuses.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:16 am

    Never happened. They did trials but never went ahead to procure/build anything.

    Exactly... all those years, ll that money spent, and nothing.

    They even tested duplex rounds and flechette rounds...

    Again your making excuses.

    Excuses that are unacceptable because the Ivan Gren is pivotal to the survival of Russia and they fucking needed it in service 15 years ago right?

    Now the Russian collapse begins...

    We don't even know what they are testing, but it is clearly a failure because the Russian federation simply cannot function without 20 of these in service right now.

    For all we know they might have developed containerised systems for various missile systems to improve its defences in some roles, but can be removed for other roles.... A TOR system and a Grad/Tornado system for landing troops in an opposed landing, or removing them both for cargo trips to Syria or where ever...

    But that is not acceptable.

    Perhaps they might even be beefing up their communications systems to allow more efficient operations that they only thought of after looking at the Mistral designs inside out...

    But no, this is a basic simple ship that should have been ready 15 years ago and is critical for the future of the whole world...

    Like I said... disappointing fanboy reaction... the sky is falling because some logistics vessels took too long to make and get into service....
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:29 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Again your making excuses.
    Again you are looking for reasons to shit-can everything Russian. Plausible reasons for slow progress on Gren have been given, but you stubbornly refuse to address or accept them.

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:11 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    SeigSoloyvov wrote:Again your making excuses.
    Again you are looking for reasons to shit-can everything Russian.  Plausible reasons for slow progress on Gren have been given, but you stubbornly refuse to address or accept them.  


    Because they simply do not make sense and it's just guessing at best.

    Shit can everything Russian? -sigh- alright really, I have given praise when praise is right and I have criticized when it was right.

    Hell I've criticized my own side on this forum. But that's okay be like that.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:19 am

    GarryB wrote:
    Never happened. They did trials but never went ahead to procure/build anything.

    Exactly... all those years, ll that money spent, and nothing.

    They even tested duplex rounds and flechette rounds...

    Again your making excuses.

    Excuses that are unacceptable because the Ivan Gren is pivotal to the survival of Russia and they fucking needed it in service 15 years ago right?

    Now the Russian collapse begins...

    We don't even know what they are testing, but it is clearly a failure because the Russian federation simply cannot function without 20 of these in service right now.

    For all we know they might have developed containerised systems for various missile systems to improve its defences in some roles, but can be removed for other roles.... A TOR system and a Grad/Tornado system for landing troops in an opposed landing, or removing them both for cargo trips to Syria or where ever...

    But that is not acceptable.

    Perhaps they might even be beefing up their communications systems to allow more efficient operations that they only thought of after looking at the Mistral designs inside out...

    But no, this is a basic simple ship that should have been ready 15 years ago and is critical for the future of the whole world...

    Like I said... disappointing fanboy reaction... the sky is falling because some logistics vessels took too long to make and get into service....

    there is a difference between testing something and putting it into active service buddy.

    AGAIN. Nothing you said here matters.

    Who said the dam thing is critical to the navy?. I never did Garry and I swear has an admin if you KEEP bringing up points I NEVER did. Why the are you an admin, I don't care if you bring up points I said or made but bringing up something I never said and throwing that at me.

    dude come on your better than that and personally, I find that insulting.

    The heck TORs come on man...thats just grasping at straws, don't go there. If they were going to do that they would have announced it.

    Also simply beefing up communications systems doesn't add on months of tests.

    Here are the facts Garry you have no clue, your excuses are just that excuses.

    If you have any information from the Navy why the tests are taking so long and btw the other guys theory doesn't make an inkling of sense, they don't half-ass test vessels because there are contracts and they are rules in the contracts that state they cannot.

    So if you have any information has to why, I am ALL ears. Until you produce that or I see and I guarantee I'll see it before you, I am labeling this has sheer incompetence.

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    kvs

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  kvs on Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:13 am

    All this troll bitching is thick and rich. Russia got over the 1990s hole (do a search for the state of Almaz-Antey factories in 2004),
    and is actually getting its shit together. Out come NATO bleaters who want everyone to think it is 1998 and not 2017.

    Bring your war of extermination already, NATO asswipes. Your trash talking, dick stroking posturing is getting old.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:01 am


    there is a difference between testing something and putting it into active service buddy.

    I am presuming they are testing a new purpose for this vessel.

    I really don't know what you are presuming.... perhaps that they are idiots and like to test things for no good reason.

    Haters going to hate.


    Who said the dam thing is critical to the navy?

    So if it isn't critical why are you pissing your pants over this?

    . I never did Garry and I swear has an admin if you KEEP bringing up points I NEVER did.

    I am trying to understand why you have this big stick up your ass about this.

    Why the are you an admin, I don't care if you bring up points I said or made but bringing up something I never said and throwing that at me.

    You are acting like this is the most important thing in the Russian navy and they are failing on it.

    Newsflash buddy... the USN has a new Zumwalt class ship and it was supposed to be the best ship in the world, but it is actually fucking expensive junk but they are making like three of them instead of the hundreds they would have made if it was as good as they thought it would.... guess what... it is going to spend its life in testing... why are you not whining about that?

    The heck TORs come on man...thats just grasping at straws, don't go there. If they were going to do that they would have announced it.

    They are testing. They wont tell us what they are testing... why would they?

    The point is not what they are testing... they are testing something... hell it is a big ship... maybe they are going to fill the deck with Kh-102s and send it out to sail up and down the atlantic ocean. They might test laser weapons or EM weapons with the thing or they might convert it to carry Ka-52Ks and test the new amphibious vehicles they had planned for the Mistrals.

    It does not matter what they are testing, the fact is that they are testing so just get over it.

    Also simply beefing up communications systems doesn't add on months of tests.

    They might be making it a spy ship... all that cargo space offers plenty of area for all sorts of stuff to be carried around the world and left to be picked up later.

    They might even make it an underwater unmanned vehicle mother ship...

    I don't know but you certainly don't know either and yet you still whine that it is not in operational service yet... what exactly will it be doing in operational service that is so fucking important?

    Here are the facts Garry you have no clue, your excuses are just that excuses.

    Very true, but what is also true is that you have no clue either and your whining is just that... whining.


    If you have any information from the Navy why the tests are taking so long and btw the other guys theory doesn't make an inkling of sense, they don't half-ass test vessels because there are contracts and they are rules in the contracts that state they cannot.

    Generally when it says test must be made it also says tests must be funded.... not properly funded means not properly tested...

    When funding stops or slows down then the focus is generally somewhere else so no one cares if it gets behind schedule.. but if they do then the only solution is reinstate funding... which almost never happens except when plan B becomes plan A again... which it almost never does... normally they go for plan c.

    So if you have any information has to why, I am ALL ears. Until you produce that or I see and I guarantee I'll see it before you, I am labeling this has sheer incompetence.

    Well I would say the replacement for teh M-16 rifle is more important than a medium sized landing ship for the Russian navy... so I guess it is safe for me to call the entire US military incompetent:

    http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/11/28/breaking-us-army-officially-cancel-icsr-program/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=2017-12-03&utm_campaign=Weekly+Newsletter

    But actually back on topic... here is a picture of SS:



    (Get it... you are a field of corn... all ears... Smile )

    According to this link:

    http://mil.today/2017/22746/

    Was in ship maker final tests before handing over to the customer in the middle of October, and when they ended the ship would have any problems fixed and then it would be handed over to the customer for state trials.

    the direct quote is:

    "The ship will start alpha tests this month. Beginning of the state trials will depend on results of these tests, probably, in November. However, it’s too soon to say when", said the Yantar’s representative

    Can we now get our panties unbunched?
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:57 pm

    just because it isn't critical that doesn't excuse the situation.

    So it's starting "Alpha" tests that make this entire situation worse, so what have all the tests been about up until now? See if they can have their sailors stand on the ship without falling off? So now they will need more months of tests? christ.....it's worse than I thought

    don't try and pull a funding excuse is the tests weren't fully funded the ship would not be out of dock that would violate protocol.

    Also just because me and you don't Garry don't do saying "pissing" my pants, I BELIEVE I am not talking to a child.

    You are welcome to call me something since I called you a fanboy sure but don't overdo it Garry.

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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:41 pm

    just because it isn't critical that doesn't excuse the situation.

    The cost to the Russian Navy if it never enters service is a rather large investment of time and a small investment of money... the Mistrals were the opposite but at least they got the money back and full access to the design and operations of the Mistrals.

    I am not putting words into your mouth I am asking why you think this is so fucking important when it is NOT.

    So it's starting "Alpha" tests that make this entire situation worse, so what have all the tests been about up until now? See if they can have their sailors stand on the ship without falling off? So now they will need more months of tests? christ.....it's worse than I thought

    It says in the article they previously tested it and found problems.

    The tests in October are made by the factory that made the ship to make sure the problems found by the Navy have been corrected.

    The tests starting now (December) are going to be by the Navy to make sure the problems are solved and no new problems have been created.

    ...of do you think they should just ignore the problems and assume they are fixed and put the fucking thing straight into operational service?

    don't try and pull a funding excuse is the tests weren't fully funded the ship would not be out of dock that would violate protocol.

    How about what the fuck is the point of testing if you just put the fucking thing straight into service without tests to make sure it is right?

    Also just because me and you don't Garry don't do saying "pissing" my pants, I BELIEVE I am not talking to a child.

    You are welcome to call me something since I called you a fanboy sure but don't overdo it Garry.

    Well sorry I offended you... don't know what you mean by child... I know plenty of incontinent adults who can't help it when they get excited BTW... admittedly most are women, but not all.

    I assumed you being an adult and with military experience that you don't just put things in service because they have been in development for a long time.

    Also when you find faults those faults need to be corrected but you don't just put it back in service again you have to retest the damn thing and of course the factory can't just assume their fix has solved the problem and they can't just assume their fix has not created other problems so they have to test before they hand it over.

    And of course the customer can't just take the word of the maker.... they know what problems are acceptable and what are not so they need to retest it too to check for themselves... but apparently according to your expert military opinion that just shows incompetence.

    Wonder why I get frustrated and hint that you are over reacting?

    But all my excuses are meaningless of course... incompetence.... incompetence and russian hackers... that is the problem.

    Doon't worry about the facts, incompetence, lack of money and hackers of the Russian persuasion.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:47 am

    I have told you over and over and over and over why. You merely refuse to hear me.

    The ship should have been delivered sooo long ago. However, you are creating excuses for it this.

    If my own navy did something like this rest assured the word incompetence would be used also.

    Thing is Garry if this was the first time that happened sure that's a fair statement and I would have understood and I did.

    However, this is not the second stage of tests like you say they are to correct from the first set. No the Gren has been in tests since mid-2016.

    We are already on basically a year and four months for the testing of a goddam landing ship. THAT is the problem here.

    One you REFUSE to address but say "Hey it's russia it's all good no incompetence here but look at this incompetence by the Us Navy"

    I have ZERO issues with you calling my own navy incompetent because at times you are right, however, I dam well expect you to look at the Russian navy the same way, I don't care if you are biased but I do not expect biased behavior from you in these matters.

    Garry do you want me to explain how testing stuff to bring into active service works for us? this process is different for the rifles, tanks, aircraft, and ships. I well understand these processes more then you, since I took part in them at times. It's also because I have, the Ivan Gren mess is even sadder.

    "BTW... admittedly most are women, but not all" watch the snide remarks man.

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    KomissarBojanchev

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:21 am

    I think the russian navy should post constant updates on what exactly was tested during each testing phase of each ship in testing and if said tests were a failure or not. That way we could know what the fuck is going on instead of situations like the gorshkov or gren where every 2 months there's just "testing". This could raise some eyebrows back in russia and could spawn protests among the navy that could lead to the more efficient allocation of time and eventual firing of incompetent or corrupt officials.

    Prolonging product testing as a means to secure more MoD funding for lining one's pockets is one of the oldest corruption schemes out there. Similar crap happened to the Stryker, F-35, F-22, etc. programs.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Big_Gazza on Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:30 am

    KomissarBojanchev wrote:I think the russian navy should post constant updates on what exactly was tested during each testing phase of each ship in testing and if said tests were a failure or not. That way we could know what the fuck is going on instead of situations like the gorshkov or gren where every 2 months there's just "testing". This could raise some eyebrows back in russia and could spawn protests among the navy that could lead to the more efficient allocation of time and eventual firing of incompetent or corrupt officials.

    Prolonging product testing as a means to secure more MoD funding for lining one's pockets is one of the oldest corruption schemes out there. Similar crap happened to the Stryker, F-35, F-22, etc. programs.

    You're stark staring bonkers lad... tell the HATOstani zio-faggot cockroach armies what Russia is doing and how well its all going? Pffftt... no fucking way. As much as I'm a keen supporter of Russia on this small 3rd rock of ours, I'd rather be kept in the dark if it means that our filthy neoliberal warmonger ruling elite is similarly blindsided.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:38 am

    The ship should have been delivered sooo long ago. However, you are creating excuses for it this.

    They don't currently need it urgently.

    When they first ordered it they probably had a pretty clear purpose for it.

    Then 2008 happened and they ordered Mistrals from France which probably meant they adapted their other purchases and tactics towards the sort of activities the Mistrals could take part in.

    When the Frenchies welched on the deal, they have started new plans... remember the would have diverted money to Kamov to build Ka-52Ks which would not be cheap, and lots of other specialist hardware and equipment.

    Of course they are going to finish the Ivan Gren but it is not a priority.... there is no hurry.... more than likely what they are thinking about is what they will make instead of the Mistrals, which will consume rather more of their attention and money.

    The Ivan Gren will get used, but it is not the new toy to get excited about.... you were getting a motor bike and then it turned out to be a skate board instead.... oh no the skate board needs a few more tests... the sky is falling.... Rolling Eyes

    Fire everyone for not anticipating that the Frogs are censored ...

    We are already on basically a year and four months for the testing of a goddam landing ship. THAT is the problem here.

    Lets be clear... you can't test all year round in Russia.... there are periods where some tests cannot be done.

    More importantly they had tests that might have taken the 2-3 month window available and with the results found identified some problems which means it would have to go back to the factory to get the fixes done so they can't have had the fucking thing for a month and a half... the factory tested it in October and early Nov and now the Navy are testing it again.

    Like I said... if it was urgent it would have been done.

    It is clearly not important... GET OVER IT!

    I have ZERO issues with you calling my own navy incompetent because at times you are right, however, I dam well expect you to look at the Russian navy the same way, I don't care if you are biased but I do not expect biased behavior from you in these matters.

    I want to see actual evidence of incompetence before I call it such, not some faggot on the internet whining because it takes longer than they thing is necessary for this size ship or that size ship.

    The ship builders for the US navy has not gone through the hard times the Russian military MIC has gone through as they have had an increase in bitches to sell shit to, while Russian yards have pretty much had all their traditional customers flee like rats to the NATO side of things.

    If you want me to bitch about how crap the Russians have handled things then expect to wait a while... just like I wont say the men fighting at Stalingrad could have fought better too. Razz

    "BTW... admittedly most are women, but not all" watch the snide remarks man.

    Whine like a bitch expect to be called one... and harden the fuck up, you are supposed to be hard army man you take offense at every comment.
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:36 am

    "not some faggot on the internet whining because it takes longer than they thing is necessary for this size ship or that size ship."

    I got nothing to say to you now, if you are going to use such a slur.

    IF this is how you act, when some criticize Russia you should not be an Admin.

    All you have done is again made excuses but no you crossed a line using that word because I called Russia out.

    What a joke Garry and frankly disgraceful on your part., I hope another admin of staff members sees this and reprimands you for it.

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    TheArmenian

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TheArmenian on Fri Dec 15, 2017 1:45 pm

    Stop fighting.
    You children don't have a clue on why the Navy GlavKomand wants to do more tests on the Ivan Gren.

    By the way, I have information that the Yantar shipyard in Kalininigrad is getting ready to launch the second unit of the class (Peter Morgunov) soon.

    Stay tuned.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:18 am

    "not some faggot on the internet whining because it takes longer than they thing is necessary for this size ship or that size ship."

    I got nothing to say to you now, if you are going to use such a slur.

    You are just looking for an excuse not to talk about this... you call me a pro russian fanboy and I call you a faggot, now you don't want to talk to me... fine.

    This is not really a discussion I am interested in anyway... you sound like CNN... it has taken 20 years for them to make a transport barge... their navy is finished... heads should roll... blah blah blah.

    What a joke Garry and frankly disgraceful on your part., I hope another admin of staff members sees this and reprimands you for it.

    I am sure I will get a fine of 50% of this weeks wages... or maybe 60%.


    Peŕrier

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Peŕrier on Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:08 am

    The most likely reason behind sluggish Ivan Gren's building, IMHO, is that Navy was/is not longer sure it needs it.

    A ship designed to beach itself to unload mechanized infantry could be not easily adapted if you shift your doctrine to a mainly wheeled and airborne (helos) force.

    Mistrals were clearly to provide the airborne part, Ivan Gren could find itself putting at strain escorts needing to close distances up to beach itself.

    I think in the Navy and Naval Infantry commands should have scraped their heads a long time studying which way operate or modify Ivan Gren to adapt her to new operational procedures.

    I was under the impression Naval Infantry still got their tanks, with no tanks I'm not sure Navy still wants its amphibious ships to beach themselves.

    So at least a careful study of possible changes of the ship,and of best ways to employ should have eated a fairly long time and delayed works on the hull.
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    flamming_python

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  flamming_python on Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:09 am

    SeigSoloyvov wrote:I got nothing to say to you now, if you are going to use such a slur.

    IF this is how you act, when some criticize Russia you should not be an Admin.

    All you have done is again made excuses but no you crossed a line using that word because I called Russia out.

    What a joke Garry and frankly disgraceful on your part., I hope another admin of staff members sees this and reprimands you for it.


    Boy you're just the latest in a long line of people that have gotten themselves shocked & butthurt over Garry's argumentative nature 'well I never!' Smile

    Just chill, no need to get upset over slurs used on the internet.

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    George1

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:42 pm

    MOSCOW, December 25. /TASS/. Russia’s United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) expects to deliver the large amphibious assault ship Ivan Gren and the third Project 11356 frigate Admiral Makarov to the Russian Navy by the yearend, USC Head Alexei Rakhmanov said on Monday.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/982916
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:50 pm

    George1 wrote:
    MOSCOW, December 25. /TASS/. Russia’s United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) expects to deliver the large amphibious assault ship Ivan Gren and the third Project 11356 frigate Admiral Makarov to the Russian Navy by the yearend, USC Head Alexei Rakhmanov said on Monday.

    More:
    http://tass.com/defense/982916

    Ivan Gren by year end? That's on Sunday...

    Unless they mean year end 2018 No lol1
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    George1

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:28 pm

    Pr.11711 large landing ship Ivan Gren (135) is having issues with its astern propulsion. MoD trials have been suspended until the end of January 2018.

    https://flotprom.ru/2018/287567/

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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:54 am

    More red meat for the Gren-ophobes! Twisted Evil
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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:20 am

    George1 wrote:Pr.11711 large landing ship Ivan Gren (135) is having issues with its astern propulsion. MoD trials have been suspended until the end of January 2018.

    https://flotprom.ru/2018/287567/


    lol1 lol1 lol1


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

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