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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:30 am

    PapaDragon wrote:Canadians recently converted commercial ship into military fuel tanker

    Smart play

    Russia should take notes, plenty of Ro-Ros available out there on the cheap

    Agreed, WHEN Russia actually has a need for extra fleet oilers. Given they are not currently looking to build a blue-water power-projection force, I'm not sure why they would need them yet as they still have 3x Boris Chikilin-class available?
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    kvs

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  kvs on Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:04 am

    PapaDragon wrote:Canadians recently converted commercial ship into military fuel tanker

    Smart play

    Russia should take notes, plenty of Ro-Ros available out there on the cheap

    Is this even an issue?
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    kvs

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  kvs on Sat Oct 28, 2017 6:06 am

    Big_Gazza wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Canadians recently converted commercial ship into military fuel tanker

    Smart play

    Russia should take notes, plenty of Ro-Ros available out there on the cheap

    Agreed, WHEN Russia actually has a need for extra fleet oilers.  Given they are not currently looking to build a blue-water power-projection force, I'm not sure why they would need them yet as they still have 3x Boris Chikilin-class available?

    Would someone please give an example where Russia would use the Gren? All this discussion and the basic need for these
    ships has not been justified at all. The Mistrals were some sort of attempt to appease NATO (by Medvedev) that went
    nowhere. Politics was their only serious impetus.
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    George1

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:25 pm

    kvs wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Canadians recently converted commercial ship into military fuel tanker

    Smart play

    Russia should take notes, plenty of Ro-Ros available out there on the cheap

    Agreed, WHEN Russia actually has a need for extra fleet oilers.  Given they are not currently looking to build a blue-water power-projection force, I'm not sure why they would need them yet as they still have 3x Boris Chikilin-class available?

    Would someone please give an example where Russia would use the Gren?   All this discussion and the basic need for these
    ships has not been justified at all.   The Mistrals were some sort of attempt to appease NATO (by Medvedev) that went
    nowhere.   Politics was their only serious impetus.

    as a replacement for old Alligator class


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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:09 pm

    Big_Gazza wrote:They're not excuses, they are REASONS.   The Ivan Gren is simply a very low priority and the RuN doesn't want to spend any more funds than absolutely necessary.  Progress is glacial because of funding.

    Surely you can understand this simple mechanism?  If they had a real need and urgent current day role for her, she would have been finished years ago.  But they don't, so they haven't.

    Regardless still a shameful example for Russia.
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    kvs

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  kvs on Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:32 pm

    George1 wrote:
    kvs wrote:
    Big_Gazza wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Canadians recently converted commercial ship into military fuel tanker

    Smart play

    Russia should take notes, plenty of Ro-Ros available out there on the cheap

    Agreed, WHEN Russia actually has a need for extra fleet oilers.  Given they are not currently looking to build a blue-water power-projection force, I'm not sure why they would need them yet as they still have 3x Boris Chikilin-class available?

    Would someone please give an example where Russia would use the Gren?   All this discussion and the basic need for these
    ships has not been justified at all.   The Mistrals were some sort of attempt to appease NATO (by Medvedev) that went
    nowhere.   Politics was their only serious impetus.

    as a replacement for old Alligator class

    I guess I was not clear enough, I am asking about an actual and not theoretical need. All the chicken little hysterics
    over some 11 year delay in a ship that is not going to be use for its purpose (as Russia has not been prepared to engage
    in this sort of warfare since 1991 and may only reach such potential some time in the 2020s).
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:26 pm

    kvs wrote:.................
    I guess I was not clear enough, I am asking about an actual and not theoretical need.   All the chicken little hysterics
    over some 11 year delay in a ship that is not going to be use for its purpose (as Russia has not been prepared to engage
    in this sort of warfare since 1991 and may only reach such potential some time in the 2020s).

    This is a good point.

    Under what scenario would Russia be storming hostile coast with these ships?

    In case of going against something as heavy as them it would not even matter because they wouldn't be taking any beaches nor would whole thing even last long enough before nukes would start flying.

    In case of some third world neo-colonial expeditionary ops like Syria they would not even need them at all because, as practice has shown, it can be done without a problem with commercial grade vessels. Not even new or fancy ones at that, bunch of second hand stuff has been getting job done gloriously.  

    Russia definitely needs helicopter carriers due to their inherent anti-sub and support functionality and as stepping stone towards aircraft carriers down the road. But for movement of cargo and troops standard civilian vessels work just fine as Syria ops has shown.

    This is why I mentioned example of Canadians converting civilian cargo ship into military. Russia should pick a model of civilian Ro-Ro transport and do the same thing several times over. Use time and money saved for more important stuff.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Isos on Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:00 am

    There are some strategical islands in the pacific and in the baltic sea. They could use thos ships to capture them and deploy s-400 there and Bal missile.

    Or use them as cargo ships for smller operations like in Syria.
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:49 am

    Yemen, Somalia, lots of other places in Africa or Asia where nukes wont be involved...

    Georgia.

    But really the best reason to have landing ships is to piss off countries in Europe like the Baltic states and Sweden and Norway, and of course Japan...

    What is the point of having naval infantry if you have no way of deploying them?

    Land a small force in Yemen to help there and then secure a sea port for anti piracy operations and further help the Yemen forces to take control of their land and waterways and coast to eliminate some of the illegal use, and to restore fishing rights to local fishermen by supporting them in their legal fishing areas so they keep fishing and don't turn to piracy.


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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:02 pm

    GarryB wrote:Yemen, Somalia, lots of other places in Africa or Asia where nukes wont be involved...
    Georgia....

    None of those places would have posed a threat to any troop transport vessel because they would be ripped to shreds by navy and airforce first. Case in point: Syria and Georgia  that you just mentioned.


    GarryB wrote:
    ...But really the best reason to have landing ships is to piss off countries in Europe like the Baltic states and Sweden and Norway, and of course Japan...

    You know what would piss off those countries even more? Couple of dozen frigates and several helicopter carriers. Not some token landing vessel based on obsolete design and doctrine whose construction they view as godsend because nothing potentially useful is being built instead.


    GarryB wrote:
    ...What is the point of having naval infantry if you have no way of deploying them?...

    Cargo vessels can deploy them just fine as recent events have show.


    GarryB wrote:
    ...Land a small force in Yemen to help there and then secure a sea port for anti piracy operations and further help the Yemen forces to take control of their land and waterways and coast to eliminate some of the illegal use, and to restore fishing rights to local fishermen by supporting them in their legal fishing areas so they keep fishing and don't turn to piracy.

    Should Russia also wipe their asses while they're at it?

    If some retard wants to play pirate best way to help and support him is to have him torn to shit by fire from 22160 patrol vessel.

    Problem solved.
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    Isos

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Isos on Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:37 pm


    You know what would piss off those countries even more? Couple of dozen frigates and several helicopter carriers. Not some token landing vessel based on obsolete design and doctrine whose construction they view as godsend because nothing potentially useful is being built instead.

    Not really obsolete. Most of helicopter carrier in the weet would easier to destroy than those ships by coastal missiles. They are biger targets with 0 defences.


    Cargo vessels can deploy them just fine as recent events have show.

    When you have a friendly port yes. But if you don't have it and the population iss hostil to you, you can't go in the middle of a town full of opposition.
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:50 pm

    Isos wrote:...............

    Not really obsolete. Most of helicopter carrier in the weet would easier to destroy than those ships by coastal missiles. They are biger targets with 0 defences.


    Irrelevant because rest of the navy would have to clean up the place and take out missile installations before landing anyway.

    Also, unlike Gren, helicopter carriers have anti-sub functionality. And they would have just as many defenses as Gren.


    ..............
    When you have a friendly port yes. But if you don't have it and the population iss hostil to you, you can't go in the middle of a town full of opposition.

    That's what landing crafts are for. That whole ''ram the beach'' approach is beyond superfluous in this day and age. Has been for half a century at least.

    And unless they have a friendly port they shouldn't be there to begin with. WW2 is over.



    I was willing not to criticize this disaster back when I thought that it would be finished a year ago at least. But not anymore.
    At this pace this floating monument to failure will not be in service before next decade.

    hoom

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  hoom on Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:21 am

    Just an interesting angle from navy day I found looking through a misc gallery
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    PapaDragon

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:15 pm


    Another humor, shits and giggles time folks.  lol1

    Ivan Gren has started some more tests or whatever yet again. Rejoice comrades, glorious flagship of the Motherland will be ready for next test phase before 23nd century after all... Razz

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/101054/
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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:50 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Another humor, shits and giggles time folks.  lol1

    Ivan Gren has started some more tests or whatever yet again. Rejoice comrades, glorious flagship of the Motherland will be ready for next test phase before 23nd century after all... Razz

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/101054/

    More tests? what kind of dumb mofo's are conducting these tests for real. This takes incompetent to a whole new level.

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    KiloGolf

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:19 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Another humor, shits and giggles time folks.  lol1

    Ivan Gren has started some more tests or whatever yet again. Rejoice comrades, glorious flagship of the Motherland will be ready for next test phase before 23nd century after all... Razz

    https://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/101054/

    I got nothing.

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    Militarov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Militarov on Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:22 pm


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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:29 am

    Wow... how gay.

    Ooh no, they are going to test a new vessel.. do you think they are just going to repeat the old tests or have analysed previous results and want further tests.

    You have already proven beyond any doubt they have no real need for the ship so it makes no fucking point to put it into normal service right?

    Testing is the only logical future for the vessel.


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    AlfaT8

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:49 pm

    Militarov wrote:

    That's some good trolling Militarov, let me try.

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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:36 pm

    GarryB wrote:Wow... how gay.

    Ooh no, they are going to test a new vessel.. do you think they are just going to repeat the old tests or have analysed previous results and want further tests.

    You have already proven beyond any doubt they have no real need for the ship so it makes no fucking point to put it into normal service right?

    Testing is the only logical future for the vessel.

    Excuses nothing but them coming from you Garry. Get off your dam fanboy horse alright but it's silly seeing you defend this mess of all things.

    This isn't some Cruiser or Destroyer.

    This ship has no weapons but CIWs. None of the systems in it are anything new this is stuff they have used before.

    They have built landing ships before they operate them.

    There is LEGIT zero reason the testing should have taken nearly this long.



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    JohninMK

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  JohninMK on Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:35 am

    What puzzles me is why this ship has not been put on the Syrian Express as part of its test regime.

    It seems that most other new military products have had their baptism of fire there. Why not the Ivan Gren?
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    GarryB

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:44 am

    Disappointed in that attitude SS...

    Of course the most powerful weapon on any ship is its guns and missiles, because it either has guns and missiles or it is a civilian vessel right?

    Nothing has changed in terms of transport technology between now and the last transport vessel they put into service right?

    No electronics systems etc new here and only one way to use any piece of equipment so why would they need to test it some more.

    I mean if they tested it in the Baltic or the Black Sea they don't need to test it in the northern fleet or the pacific fleet because all these situations are exactly the same and are not different at all.

    Just like with the British vessels that don't work well in the Med because the water is too warm for their cooling systems to work properly... or the US fleets ability to operate in congested waters without bumping in to enormous cargo ships.... they don't need testing either... or maybe drug and alcohol testing....


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    George1

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:01 am



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    SeigSoloyvov

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:07 am

    GarryB wrote:Disappointed in that attitude SS...

    Of course the most powerful weapon on any ship is its guns and missiles, because it either has guns and missiles or it is a civilian vessel right?

    Nothing has changed in terms of transport technology between now and the last transport vessel they put into service right?

    No electronics systems etc new here and only one way to use any piece of equipment so why would they need to test it some more.

    I mean if they tested it in the Baltic or the Black Sea they don't need to test it in the northern fleet or the pacific fleet because all these situations are exactly the same and are not different at all.

    Just like with the British vessels that don't work well in the Med because the water is too warm for their cooling systems to work properly... or the US fleets ability to operate in congested waters without bumping in to enormous cargo ships.... they don't need testing either... or maybe drug and alcohol testing....

    Again no new electronics are on this ship or any other equipment. so what the hell are you talking about "New" again this is stuff they tested before and are using SHIPS with VLS and more complex weapon systems took much less time to test.

    The ship can clearly operate in cold and hot temp so yeah nice one

    this again? man I didn't even, for example, bring up anything when that Russian ship hit something in the turkish straight, accidents happen, The crew of the DD made an error and they hit something that isn't any fault of the ship blame the crew. of course, the Russian navy has had more accidents but hey that's okay. This also has NOTHING to do with testing the ship mind you, so why are you bringing up completely pointless thing?

    You don't seem to understand and that's fine, the problem isn't that they are testing the ship the problem is the sheer incompetence behind how long this is taking because it should not be taking this long. God forbid tho Garry you comment on Incompetence on the part of the Russians.

    It's me who is disappointed by yours, I can understand defending something when there is a cause but this, this is frankly absurd and the fact you sit here and try and make excuses for it. I expect better than this from an Admin not fanboy like behavior in regards to a matter like this. so don't be surprised when I call you biased when you display it in such a manner.
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    Big_Gazza

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Big_Gazza on Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:18 am

    I don't see it as incompetence.  It looks to be that minimal resources have been allocated to the project team responsible for testing & commissioning, so the work is divided into smaller scopes and conducted sequentially rather than as a single exercise.  Test a limited number of components, review the results, fix & retest if needed, then move on to the next component.  I've been involved in projects where insufficient resources were available to fully test in a single program, so we were forced to implement in blocks.

    Why are insufficient resources available?  Probably due to the Gren being a very low priority.  Allocate small funds per year, keep a small team going for a prolonged period.

    Not sure why people can't understand this (or won't accept it)....  scratch personal agendas ignoring inconvenient facts & opposing viewpoints?

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