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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

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    TR1
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TR1 on Sat May 19, 2012 10:42 pm

    http://forums.airbase.ru/2010/10/t73330,14--desantnyj-korabl-proekta-11711-ivan-gren.html

    See this thread for great photos.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 20, 2012 12:04 am

    Nice to see it in the water. In which fleet Ivan Gren will serve?

    Well they have said they don't want more and instead they want an ocean going vessel.

    The Caspian Sea fleet doesn't really need such a vessel... though forces in that region might be useful they could put it there and any new ocean going multi purpose vessel could be used in the Black Sea (its ocean going capacity used in the Med) or the Baltic fleet with its ocean going capacity being used throughout Europe.

    The Northern Fleet will have two Mistral class vessels and the Pacific Fleet will have the other two.

    Perhaps the huge reduction in armament is a clue it is going to the Caspian Flotilla, or perhaps it is a clue it will be operating with much more powerfully armed vessels and therefore doesn't need organic fire power.

    Of course with that argument the Mistrals would not need much firepower as they will operate with the Northern and Pacific Fleets... and it seems they are getting Redut SAMs and UKSK launchers so just based on this I would guess it was going to the Caspian flotilla and will be used... perhaps in exercises with Iran and the 'Stans that border the Caspian... a slight strengthening of the Caspian flotila might suggest they are interested in strengthening ties with Iran... a Russian port in the persian gulf could be supported directly using transport ships over the Caspian Sea and then a land route from north to south Iran... preferably rail of course... if there isn't already one the Russians could assist in building one to improve supply from north to south of the country which Russia could then use to supply a port that bypasses the Turkish straights and the Suez canal. This would mean Russian vessels operating in anti piracy missions could spend more time on station and spend much less time in transit.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TR1 on Sun May 20, 2012 2:32 am

    I think BSF as well.

    BSF is the luckiest of surface fleets this decade.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sun May 20, 2012 7:44 am

    I agree that for the moment the BSF looks most likely, but if they do create a new ocean going landing ship that is more flexible than the Ivan Gren then such a ship would not really be needed in the northern or pacific fleets as they both will have two Mistrals.

    I think they will likely make 2-4 of the new ocean going landing ships and it would make sense to base such ships in the Baltic and the Black Sea, which means the Ivan Gren either becomes a supporting ship or gets relegated to the CSF, or perhaps if cooperation increases with Iran or one of the 'stans it might get transfered to the CSF for a purpose rather than just cascading forces down.

    I would expect they will start it off in the Black Sea fleet, but its range and armament would be a limiting factor both in the Black Sea let alone the med.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TR1 on Sun May 20, 2012 10:04 am

    Ivan Gren is way too big for Caspian Flotilla, I don't think there is much chance of that.

    BSF has a number of older large landing craft anyways that will need replacement.
    Range won't be a problem for "georgia" type scenario, and that's the only amphibious action the BSF has seen lately in any case.

    BSF has 4 project 775s landing ships alone, not to mention Tapirs.

    EDIT: I wonder how much it would cost to bring the Mitrofan back. Too bad it was allowed to rot pierside...

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  medo on Sun May 20, 2012 10:29 am

    So we could expect Ivan Gren will serve either in Baltic fleet either in Black Sea fleet. If they will actually order three more, than there could be two in Baltic and two in Black sea.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Mon May 21, 2012 6:24 am

    They have said the Ivan Gren will not be continued with and a new ocean going landing craft that is more flexible and capable will be developed.

    This perhaps explains why most of the weapons were taken off the Ivan Gren.

    The Ivan Gren is not too big for the Caspian.

    I am not suggesting it was designed for the Caspian, but carrying 13 tanks or 30 odd BTR/BMP... in other words 13 vehicles of the Armata type from a heavy brigade or 30 vehicles from a medium brigade is not overkill in the Caspian Sea. It might actually be useful if there are problems with Azerbaijan/Armenia, or one of the Stans that borders the Caspian and might also be useful to transport vehicles to Iran for exercises etc etc.

    I am suggesting the design was not deemed useful enough... they clearly want a more capable type and are now working on that. It will be a new ocean going vessel that will be designed and built and likely put in service in the Baltic and Black Sea. The current Ivan Gren might never see the Caspian Sea and might stay in the Black Sea or Baltic but with its lack of armament I rather think it would be a bit of a liability there.

    I would suggest the calls for an ocean going landing craft suggest the Ivan Gren does not have the best sea keeping capabilities in rough conditions which limits its use to coastal waters or inland seas and they clearly want something with a bit more reach.

    If they were going to deploy this vessel to the Black sea or Baltic sea then I would think they would retain armament so at least it could defend itself properly. They have reduced the armament to the bare minimum which suggests to me they are going to send it to a backwater.

    They have said there will be no more Ivan Gren vessels.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Fri May 25, 2012 10:24 am

    Media: Russian Navy to Purchase Twin Sister for Ivan Gren Landing Ship

    It is planned to build a twin sister for large landing ship Ivan Gren recently launched in Kaliningrad under Russian Navy's contract, reported Izvestiya referring to a high-ranking officer of Navy Main HQ.

    "The future of Project 11711 will be determined upon construction of the second ship. I mean, we do plan to order the second landing ship and then will decide whether to continue building ships of this type", said the Navy spokesman. He explained that Ivan Gren was designed to deliver troops directly on the shore. To do that, the ship's bow part "sits" aground and opens a huge "gate". Such method is perfect for desolate coasts but useless under enemy fire.

    Landing ship Ivan Gren is the Project 11711 lead ship. Chief designer Vladimir Maslin said his creature was rather appropriate for Russian Navy than French Mistral-class amphibious ships. Other types of landing ships bring troops ashore by means of boars or helicopters, just like Mistrals. Obviously, by choosing the French ships, Russian Navy focuses on so-called "trans-horizon" landing method. In this case a ship stays beyond line-of-sight range, while Russian landing ships must "stick" into coast.

    On the other hand, Russian-style amphibious ships need no additional landing craft and so have larger payload capacity. Currently, Russian Navy operates about 20 landing ships. Two of them participated in the seizure of Georgian port Poti in Aug 2008.

    According to United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC), Russian Navy has not made any formal decisions on construction of the second Ivan Gren-class landing ship.

    "Sure, Yantar Shipyard is ready to start construction even tomorrow. But the Navy must determine the technical concept for the second ship, since project of the lead one was altered three times", explained the interviewee.

    As for him, originally Ivan Gren designed in 1998 was supposed to have powerful arms including air defense systems. The construction began to follow that concept in 2004.

    However, in 2006 new naval leaders decided to clear Ivan Gren from most of armaments. As a result, the ship turned into a low-armed ferry with "landing capability" and was put afloat on May 18, 2012 in Kaliningrad.

    "We had to cut the hull and clear the premises meant for air defense systems. Now the Navy would unlikely leave the project in the current state", explained the USC spokesman.

    According to him, if the Navy fails to submit technical specifications to Yantar in the nearest time, the second ship of that project may not be included in State Defense Order 2013 which is to be approved in Oct 2012. In that case, the keel will be laid down only in 2014.

    Besides, many arms and control systems meant for Ivan Gren in 1998 have been withdrawn from production, so designers would have to introduce new systems to the project, added the interviewee.

    "Some kinds of equipment like diesels, pumps, turbines, gun systems are no longer produced. Some things have become overaged, for one, electronics. Presently, many components have other sizes, performance features, costs, so the Navy will definitely have to develop new technical specifications", said the source.

    According to Vice President of the Academy of Geopolitics Konstantin Sivkov, Russian Navy does not need the second ship if built under current Ivan Gren project.

    "One should build a full-fledged ship armed with mighty air defense and strike systems, and capable to deploy and protect landing party. And Ivan Gren could be used as civilian ferry", said the expert. According to Sivkov, our Navy needs ships of that project much more than Mistrals, but as long as the military still have no idea what kind of ships they need and for what purpose, Project 11711 may be disregarded.

    Displacement of large landing ship Ivan Gren is 5,000 tons; full speed is 18 knots; length is 120 meters; beam is 16.5 meters; draft is 3.6 meters; complement is 100 men. The ship is armed with three 12-barreled 30-mm antiaircraft guns and may accommodate two Ka-29 transport/attack helicopters, writes Izvestiya.

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=15196

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Fri May 25, 2012 11:44 am

    In comparison to western vessels of this type the Ivan Gren which is described as "stripped" of armament is actually still rather well armed.

    The Ivan Gren is a 5K ton vessel which makes it a quarter the weight of a Mistral... and a Mistral has a few 50 cal HMG positions and Mistral launchers.

    In comparison three 30mm 6 barrel gatling gun systems is far more powerful... especially if you add cheap and simple Igla turrets... the equivalent of the Mistral missile systems.

    Such vessels will never operate on their own and will always be properly supported, so the lack of armament is no great surprise, though a decent SAM would be an improvement.

    I would replace two of those gatlings with Pantsir-S1 systems which gives them 4 gatlings and 64 missiles with a range of up to 20km and altitudes of 2m off the water to 15km height. The other gun turret I would replace with Duet which has twin 30mm guns for a total of 6 guns and 64 missiles. The Duet is a simple swapout replacement, but the Pantsir-S1 is a multi deck system that will take up rather more space... but it is worth it.

    I think they are planning larger heavier ocean going replacements for the Ivan Gren.

    Of course if the Redut SAM system is fully successful it would be a simple and cheap upgrade to put in a few Redut bins to add short range 9M100 Morfei, and S-400 40km and 120km range radar homing missiles.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  flamming_python on Wed May 30, 2012 1:42 am

    GazB, the current state of the Ivan Gren's lack of armnament is AFAIK not because there will be powerful supporting ships; I may be wrong but I don't think that Russian doctrine/design decisions have changed in this regard. From what I read - it's simply because they are still waiting to see whether it will be a perspective vessel, as well as some other factors (new weapon systems yet to come out, etc...) before splashing out on it. But if everything works out; I'm sure that this particular vessel and all the future ones of its class will be re-armed a lot more adequately.

    This is done from time to time with Russian equipment and in some other countries too as I'm sure you know; first get the vehicle out and about, and add the weapons later.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 30, 2012 9:13 am

    This is done from time to time with Russian equipment and in some other countries too as I'm sure you know; first get the vehicle out and about, and add the weapons later.

    I agree, this is certainly a possibility, but from comments I have read they want a more flexible ocean going design.

    I take that to mean they want to add systems that they can't fit, or perhaps the electronics are way out of date, or there could be something fundamentally wrong with the vessel that will make it not possible to use it in rough seas.

    There was talk of them adding up to 160 launch tubes for SAMs on the Mistrals and also fitting it with UKSK cruise/anti ship missile capability... Russian doctrine seems to be based on designing ships that can look after themselves... a concept reaffirmed by the Falklands war where missiles aimed at warships were defeated by decoys and ESM but those missiles reaquired targets that turned out to be the civilian support vessels the British were using, and several were sunk.

    My view is that the weapons were in the design but were taken off during the production stage because even then they knew the new vessel was not going to be an ocean going vessel in an important region. As you suggest however it could also be the cost and that they plan to fit it all later, but I would think the talk about cancelling it after the first boat and talking about needing a more flexible ocean going replacement makes me suspect they worked out fairly early on that these vessels were not going to meet their needs.

    We will have to wait and see I guess.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:10 am


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:37 am

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=16422

    Defense Ministry to Review Contract for Ivan Gren Landing Ship


    United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) and Russian defense ministry will revise the contract for completion of Project 11711 landing ship Ivan Gren laid down in 2004 by JSC Yantar Shipyard, said Alexander Konovalov, the yard's director general.

    "We plan to revise the shipbuilding contract for landing ship Ivan Gren in the nearest time. Term of the current contract will be expired soon. Therefore, the ship will be completed under the new contract", reports Interfax citing Konovalov.

    As for now, construction of the ship goes on behind the contract schedule, he added. According to Konovalov, there are two reasons for that. First, the shipyard was undergoing a crisis some time ago. The second reason is non-availability and tight supply of design documentation, as well as insufficient financing of the project.

    "Money transfers for the project implementation became regular only two years ago", added Konovalov.

    In his turn, USC vice president Sergei Forafontov confirmed the information about a new contract for the landing ship, having noted that "the new document deals with a higher cost of works. We all know how defense ministry concluded such contracts at the time".

    As for him, the last remark refers to many shipbuilding contracts of Russian Navy.

    Landing ship Ivan Gren was laid down in Dec 2004. Yantar shipyard was supposed to build a 5-ship series. However, it was decided later that Russian Navy would no longer purchase Project 11711 landing ships.

    The then-president of USC Roman Trotsenko said in Apr 2012 that Yantar "won't build new ships under this project any more. It is decided that the new ship will combine attack and landing capabilities".

    A Project 11711 landing ship was developed by JSC Nevskoye Design Bureau (St. Petersburg) and is a modification of Project 1171. It is the world's first ship using a 'non-contact landing' method. Troops and combat vehicles will reach unprepared coasts by means of pontoons.

    The landing ship will be capable to accommodate about 40 tracked/wheeled combat vehicles including heavy ones (60 tons each). The ship's length will be about 120 meters; displacement will exceed 6,000 tons.

    Yantar shipyard is specialized in building of various warships and civil vessels with launching weight up to 10,000 tons, as well as ship-repair works. Totally, the yard has built over 100 large and about 400 small ships, and repaired over 430 vessels.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KomissarBojanchev on Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:35 pm

    Are there any plans to build Ivan Grens for the extremely poorly equipped baltic fleet? I think the best combination for russian landing ships will be 2 Ivan grens each for the baltic and black sea fleets and 2 mistrals per the pacific and arctic fleet.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TR1 on Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:11 pm

    I don't get how Baltic is extremely poorly equipped.

    Who is in the area? Poland? Baltic states? Sweded? Finland? What mighty navies do they have?

    And further, what use is a landing ship in the Baltic where it is unlikely to ever see use.

    At this point it is looking unlikely any more of the class will be built.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:54 pm

    They could build 2-3 more to replace old Alligator class at least

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  medo on Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:00 pm

    TR1 wrote:I don't get how Baltic is extremely poorly equipped.

    Who is in the area? Poland? Baltic states? Sweded? Finland? What mighty navies do they have?

    And further, what use is a landing ship in the Baltic where it is unlikely to ever see use.

    At this point it is looking unlikely any more of the class will be built.

    Military transports of important equipment to Kaliningrad.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:32 am

    What about that ivan gren landing ship? not completed yet?

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:44 am

    "Project 11711E "Ivan Gren" will enter fleet 2012"

    we already have 2013....

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TR1 on Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:08 am

    And it won't enter service this year either Smile .

    http://www.balancer.ru/forum/punbb/attachment.php?item=340422&download=2&type=.jpg

    August 2012.

    http://www.balancer.ru/forum/punbb/attachment.php?item=340423&download=2&type=.jpg

    THis month.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:26 am

    The then-president of USC Roman Trotsenko said in Apr 2012 that Yantar "won't build new ships under this project any more. It is decided that the new ship will combine attack and landing capabilities".

    I suspect they mean they want a ship that can land troops but also provide support for those landed troops.

    In my opinion that means unguided rocket artillery support and several heavy gun turrets perhaps with UAV spotters?


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Viktor on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:00 pm

    2 days ago news


    Acting Director General of the Baltic Shipyard "Yantar" Alexander Konovalov
    BDK "Ivan Gren" will be given the Russian Navy with no lag in 2013

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TheArmenian on Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:07 pm

    Speculated location for the RAPTOR craft on the IVAN GREN landing ship:



    The RAPTOR from Pella Shipyard on sea trials:


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    Ivan Gren landing ship

    Post  TR1 on Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:26 pm

    What is clear from that photo is the Navy doesn't really want the Gren at this point.

    MOD procurement is so retarded and schizophrenic.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TR1 on Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:31 pm

    http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/9262/5078628.2c/0_74f2c_b74a57db_orig.gif

    Recent photo.

    No further work has been done on it for months.

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