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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

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    Militarov
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Militarov on Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:22 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Important thing now is what comes after this class. Shipyard will soon be done with these two and production of next type should start otherwise they will be sitting idle.

    They should definitely switch to LPDs at the 7,000 to 9,000 t range (which the shipyard can handle) and move away from LSTs. The italian designs are my personal preference (San Giusto in particular) but there's also Endurance class at Singapore Navy and Canterbury at New Zealand Navy.

    Makassar-class production is in full swing for an example, or Yuzhao-class which is supposed to be cheaper (and way bigger) than most of the LPDs around.

    Agreed, both also good examples and mature designs (is Makassar civil or mil spec?).
    Type 071 would be most ideal, if that particular Russian shipyard could handle it.

    I belive its built by military standards. But ships of this kind and type are very often borrowing features from civilian ships anyways so its not much to worry about. When its about Yantar "Dimensions of the building site “Yantar” make it possible to construct ships and boats with launching weight up to 10,000 tons, displacement up to 12,000 tons, maximum length – 145 m, width – 26 meters."


    TheArmenian
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:33 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Important thing now is what comes after this class. Shipyard will soon be done with these two and production of next type should start otherwise they will be sitting idle.

    They should definitely switch to LPDs at the 7,000 to 9,000 t range (which the shipyard can handle) and move away from LSTs. The italian designs are my personal preference (San Giusto in particular) but there's also Endurance class at Singapore Navy and Canterbury at New Zealand Navy.

    Because the Italian designs are your personal preference, the Russian MoD should build ships accordingly scratch

    My friend, don't get polluted by western point of views that believe LPDs are the way to go and LSTs are obsolete. The Russian MoD will order the right ship within the existing circumstances.

    Beaching is just one of the tricks LSTs can do. These Smaller and cheaper vessels are also more practical and flexible because they can be used on a wider range of mission profiles including anti-piracy, patrol, rescue, surveillance etc. . An LPD is too valuable and cumbersome for such missions. There will be LPDs in the Russian Navy in the future for sure. They certainly will not be the Ivan Rogovs.

    The Ivan Gren class ships are going to be workhorses for the navy and will give excellent service throughout decades. Just look at the Ropuchas and elderly Alligator and their immense contributions to the landings in Abkhazia (2008) and the Syria express (presently).

    The Gren was supposed to enter service in 2012. They shipyard could have delivered on time. The many reasons the MoD delayed the entry in service date include: finances that were directed towards the Mistrals, the availability of a sufficient number of other LSTs (Ropuchas and Alligators), priority given to the Grigorovich frigates etc. etc.

    Also note that at 6000T full load, the Ivan Gren is the largest surface warship being commissioned into the navy since the Admiral Chabanenko in 1999. With a helicopter hangar, good sensor suite and sufficient accommodations, this ship is expected to be seen often on the seas where conflicts happen or could potentially happen.


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:55 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Important thing now is what comes after this class. Shipyard will soon be done with these two and production of next type should start otherwise they will be sitting idle.

    They should definitely switch to LPDs at the 7,000 to 9,000 t range (which the shipyard can handle) and move away from LSTs. The italian designs are my personal preference (San Giusto in particular) but there's also Endurance class at Singapore Navy and Canterbury at New Zealand Navy.

    Because the Italian designs are your personal preference, the Russian MoD should build ships accordingly  scratch

    My friend, don't get polluted by western point of views that believe LPDs are the way to go and LSTs are obsolete. The Russian MoD will order the right ship within the existing circumstances.

    There's no east west here. We built 5 LSTs in the 90s and early 00s (4,500 t Jason class) and it was a bad decision overall, at a time when LPDs had or were proving their worth; carrying out expeditionary, relief, hospital, show the flag and operationally hot too (Trenton during Operation praying Mantis comes to mind vividly). Ability to have > 1 helicopter ports, ability to flood and host anything from a simple LCM, to a small LCAC or CB90. There's just some much more utility on an LPD vis a vis an LST of same tonnage. The examples I put here are not personal preference per se but tonnage related to that shipyard.

    TheArmenian wrote:The Ivan Gren class ships are going to be workhorses for the navy and will give excellent service throughout decades. Just look at the Ropuchas and elderly Alligator and their immense contributions to the landings in Abkhazia (2008) and the Syria express (presently).

    The Gren was supposed to enter service in 2012. They shipyard could have delivered on time. The many reasons the MoD delayed the entry in service date include: finances that were directed towards the Mistrals, the availability of a sufficient number of other LSTs (Ropuchas and Alligators), priority given to the Grigorovich frigates etc. etc.

    Also note that at 6000T full load, the Ivan Gren is the largest surface warship being commissioned into the navy since the Admiral Chabanenko in 1999. With a helicopter hangar, good sensor suite and sufficient accommodations, this ship is expected to be seen often on the seas where conflicts happen or could potentially happen.

    Admittedly Ivan Gren represents the better LST design, compared to those polish... "jobs program" designs (lets call them that). But I still notice for instance that the is no helicopter winch position amidship and no ability for vehicles on the front deck (an ability e.g. M. Moskalenko had).

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:31 pm

    You keep going by western notions and western experiences (in this case your own navy's).
    Listen, if the Russians wanted to build an LPD, they would have built one.
    The original Russian Navy's vision was to have 4 Mistrals (ordered abroad) and a number of Grens (domestically produced) as their future blue water amphibious force. (Plus a number of smaller Dugon and Serna class vessels for short range local needs).

    Now that the Mistral deal has gone sour, they stated the Gren class will be limited to 2 ships.
    My personal guess is that there will be no large Mistral-sized amphibious ship orders as there are other priorities, limited finances and limited shipyard space. Instead, I suspect that once the Grigorovich class frigates and the second Gren LST are completed, the Kaliningrad shipyard will start building LPDs of 8,000 - 10,000 T displacement.

    Also note that the Gren class was to be inexpensive, the original armament was a lot heavier (including a 76mm gun etc.). The Navy decided to make it cheaper. So, just one helicopter with hangar. No winch position amidship or other goodies.
    As you said: it is just meant to be a better Ropucha/Alligator.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:22 pm




    I am just really curious to see what that next ship will look like... confused

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:40 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:You keep going by western notions and western experiences (in this case your own navy's).
    Listen, if the Russians wanted to build an LPD, they would have built one.

    No western notions whatsoever. My examples were referring to tonnage, design philosophy and time, not alliance. In fact I advocated them re-building Ivan Rogovs (one of them was hardly ever used) as a much preferable endeavor to this 12-year delayed small-ish LST. And honestly back in the early 00s they had not much choice on building any LPD from scratch.  The fact that they invested so much on an LST project and end up buying just two of them, simply signifies this as a failure.

    They only finish up whatever hulls and metal they procured and shut the whole thing down.
    Partly this reality supports my case.. unless they fall in love with the thing buy more of them. Not what it seems so far.

    TheArmenian wrote:The original Russian Navy's vision was to have 4 Mistrals (ordered abroad) and a number of Grens (domestically produced) as their future blue water amphibious force. (Plus a number of smaller Dugon and Serna class vessels for short range local needs).

    Now that the Mistral deal has gone sour, they stated the Gren class will be limited to 2 ships.
    My personal guess is that there will be no large Mistral-sized amphibious ship orders as there are other priorities, limited finances and limited shipyard space. Instead, I suspect that once the Grigorovich class frigates and the second Gren LST are completed, the Kaliningrad shipyard will start building LPDs of 8,000 - 10,000 T displacement.

    Also note that the Gren class was to be inexpensive, the original armament was a lot heavier (including a 76mm gun etc.). The Navy decided to make it cheaper. So, just one helicopter with hangar. No winch position amidship or other goodies.
    As you said: it is just meant to be a better Ropucha/Alligator.

    That makes a lot of sense.
    Also the first of your part, I didn't know, cheers.

    PS. The faster they induct LPDs in reasonable numbers (> 2 per fleet) the better for them in terms of their Middle East policy, Med, Black Sea and so on.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:28 pm

    Landing ship "Ivan Gren" will be transferred to the Russian Navy in 2nd quarter of 2016


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  marat on Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:23 pm

    George1 wrote:Landing ship "Ivan Gren" will be transferred to the Russian Navy in 2nd quarter of 2016

    Postponed again....

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Dima on Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:17 pm

    Postponed from 2nd quater?
    Would have been good to see them in service while Kuznetsov is in the Mediterranean.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:25 pm

    George1 wrote:Landing ship "Ivan Gren" will be transferred to the Russian Navy in 2nd quarter of 2016

    This is basically the F-35 of landing ships lol1
    what a momentous clvsterfvck

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  ult on Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:24 pm


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  OminousSpudd on Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:37 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    George1 wrote:Landing ship "Ivan Gren" will be transferred to the Russian Navy in 2nd quarter of 2016

    This is basically the F-35 of landing ships lol1
    what a momentous clvsterfvck

    Thankfully its not costing a fortune... Still retarded though.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:06 pm

    Blame the authorities. I kept changing the standards and needs for the ship like changing their underwear. At least it didn't cost of fortune. Although, if they stick to just 1 design, they should build more. But nope.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Mirlo on Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:50 pm

    Does some one know what are the electronic devices that can be seen on the ship? I mean the boxes below the Pozitiv radar.

    Best regards

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  ult on Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:12 pm

    Petr Morgunov.


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:23 pm

    Ι think Russia should continue the production of such ships to at least 6-7. Even if modern era requires a different design or more multirole, ivan gren class LST are sure far better and useful than old Alligator and Ropucha classes


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:28 am


    Laid down year ago and already rolled out. So they can get things done when they are not dicking around with specs and budget.

    Let's hope that next landing ship model is done as fast as Morgunov.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  marat on Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:49 pm

    Will Russia bulid more Ivan Gren class ships or just this 2.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Militarov on Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:06 pm

    marat wrote:Will Russia bulid more Ivan Gren class ships or just this 2.

    Seems that class will be discontinued after these 2. So for now it seems no.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:37 pm

    marat wrote:Will Russia bulid more Ivan Gren class ships or just this 2.

    Not likely, they were restarted in order to supplement Mistrals but when that fell trough they decided to go with new class that will be built in that shipyard. It is called ''Priboy class''

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  marat on Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:46 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    marat wrote:Will Russia bulid more Ivan Gren class ships or just this 2.

    Not likely, they were restarted in order to supplement Mistrals but when that fell trough they decided to go with new class that will be built in that shipyard. It is called ''Priboy class''

    Is that confirmed? So definitely Priboy not Lavina?
    Do you have some link with confirmed specifications?

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:43 am

    marat wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:
    marat wrote:Will Russia bulid more Ivan Gren class ships or just this 2.

    Not likely, they were restarted in order to supplement Mistrals but when that fell trough they decided to go with new class that will be built in that shipyard. It is called ''Priboy class''

    Is that confirmed? So definitely Priboy not Lavina?
    Do you have some link with confirmed specifications?

    Both actually.

    Priboy is smaller and should be built right after they are done with 2nd Gren class ship. It will be similar to Rotterdam class.

    Lavina is larger and will be similar to Mistral class. This one should be built later.


    Can't find image of Priboy but here is pic of Lavina:

    http://files.balancer.ru/forums/attaches/2015/06/16-3864088-dsc-6841.jpg

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  marat on Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:09 am

    Thank you.
    So at this point we do not know when will start production of those new ships

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  medo on Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:42 am

    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/76613/

    With reconstruction and modernization of Zaliv shipyard in Crimea, RuNAVY could build Priboy ships for Black Sea Fleet in Zaliv shipyard. Smaller Priboys will serve well in Baltic and Black Sea fleets, while larger Lavina will be better for ocean going Northern and Pacific fleets. For Pacific fleets I am sure new Lavinas and aircraft carriers will be build in new large Zvezda Shipyard in Vladivostok, but I'm not sure which shipyard will produce them for Northern fleet.

    Anyway, two Priboy ships bring same capacities as one Mistral in both, with number of helicopters and in troops and equipment capacities, so they are well suitable for the fleet like in the Black Sea. Building four of them for Black Sea fleet would also bring strong Russian presence in Mediterranean Sea and with similar number in the Baltic, they will have enough of them for constant rotations. The best support for them are Buyan-M corvettes, which are actually now a new class of land attack cruise missiles corvettes, which could be armed with conventional or with nuclear warheads. For anti-ship operations, they will have other corvettes.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:22 pm

    marat wrote:Thank you.
    So at this point we do not know when will start production of those new ships

    Well my guess would be that Priboy should start right after 2nd Ivan Gren is floated out of the dock. That shipyard was already building landing ships so it would make sense to just continue at the same place.

    And like medo said, it would be smart move to build them at more than one shipyard.

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