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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

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    Militarov
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:12 am

    KiloGolf wrote:well it only took them 11+ years No
    In that time they could have repaired and put back in-action the two huge Ivan Rogovs.

    Overhauling Ivan Rogov class shouldnt take more than 2 years per ship. Maybe even a year, but since we are talking about Russians lets give them some slack Smile

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:13 am

    George1 wrote:Large landing ship "Ivan Gren" put in the dock for painting the underwater hull

    As previously reported,"Ivan Gren" project 11711 will begin factory sea trials in late January 2016, the exact date of transmission of the Russian Navy has not been determined. However, at the end of 2015 the ship was settling crew for sea trials and, according to the latest reports, are scheduled to begin in February.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1698791.html

    Outfitting took so long that it started rusting. I truly hate this ship...

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  wilhelm on Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:39 am

    What diesels are used to propel the Ivan Gren Class?
    Is it the same diesels as found in the Admiral Gorshkov Class?

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Militarov on Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:51 am

    wilhelm wrote:What diesels are used to propel the Ivan Gren Class?
    Is it the same diesels as found in the Admiral Gorshkov Class?

    I belive it uses 10Д49 http://www.korabel.ru/equipment/item_view/345170.html produced by OAO http://www.kolomnadiesel.com/productions/diesel_engine/d49/


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  wilhelm on Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:57 am

    Thanks Militarov. So the same as the Gorshkov then.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:48 am

    Militarov wrote:
    George1 wrote:Large landing ship "Ivan Gren" put in the dock for painting the underwater hull

    As previously reported,"Ivan Gren" project 11711 will begin factory sea trials in late January 2016, the exact date of transmission of the Russian Navy has not been determined. However, at the end of 2015 the ship was settling crew for sea trials and, according to the latest reports, are scheduled to begin in February.

    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1698791.html

    Outfitting took so long that it started rusting. I truly hate this ship...

    Well it was not breaking any speed records at any point during development but the whole thing did get put on ice for very long time because of Mistral acquisition. When that fell trough they got it back on the roster.

    I just hope that when they start building that new one (Rotterdam class look alike) they stick with it instead of dicking around like they did with this one.

    Gren would have been a good ship had they even remotely stuck with the schedule.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:56 am

    Rust develops quite fast on ships for obvious reasons.  I seen new ships from US that have it.  It just is a costly and time consuming procedure to paint it again and again.  Ivan gren probably repainted many times already.  This ships is quote important yet it has taken them forever to come out due to constant changes being made.  Should have had basic defenses and thats it.  But no, of course it cannot be that simple.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:51 pm

    sepheronx wrote:Rust develops quite fast on ships for obvious reasons.  I seen new ships from US that have it.  It just is a costly and time consuming procedure to paint it again and again.  Ivan gren probably repainted many times already.  This ships is quote important yet it has taken them forever to come out due to constant changes being made.  Should have had basic defenses and thats it.  But no, of course it cannot be that simple.

    Well yeah, rust is normal thing on ships especially those used in salt water, however i was always amused by the fact that every single Russian ship rusts so much after only a year or two in service, must be the paint...

    Yeah for so many years they could build 2 aircraft carriers...

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:49 pm

    If the ships structure is made out metal than it will rust faster. Newer Russian ships use a mixture of composit material so it may not rust or take a lot longer.  Ivan Gren isnt new and the ship just pisses me off because od poor management decisions.

    Actually, I dont even know if a lot of the older ships were galvanized.  I know in Russia they opened up a second galvanizing shop for automotive but I dont know how it is done for ship building.  I imagine it is a more basic method in the recent past.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:38 pm

    sepheronx wrote:If the ships structure is made out metal than it will rust faster. Newer Russian ships use a mixture of composit material so it may not rust or take a lot longer.  Ivan Gren isnt new and the ship just pisses me off because od poor management decisions.

    Actually, I dont even know if a lot of the older ships were galvanized.  I know in Russia they opened up a second galvanizing shop for automotive but I dont know how it is done for ship building.  I imagine it is a more basic method in the recent past.

    Well marine steel itself should be somewhat more resistant to rust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_grade_stainless naturally there is like 50 variations of "marine grade steel"...

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Dima on Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:05 pm

    Ship hulls use cathodic protection where by the hull is protected from corrosion by introducing a more corrosive metal/plates (anode). These plates gets corroded with time and is replaced by new ones. Its a more practical approach and cost effective than new hull plates or using galvanized plates (making the plate a cathode by having a coating which acts as anode). 


    Russian Institute of Power Radiobuilding
    http://www.rimr.ru/eng/

    Ship cathode-protection systems

    JSC "RIPR" collaborates with Central Research Institute "Prometey" in the sphere of equipping the vessels, boats and floating stations with cathode-protection systems.

    Cathode-protection systems against corrosion of underwater parts of the bodies of sea vessels of unrestricted sailing area (incl. ice-beakers), as well as underwater parts of the bodies of floating power-plants, gas-and-oil producing platforms and other floating structures, with reduced voltage direct current with its automatic adjustment acc. to specified protection potential of the ship.

    Implemented projects:

    - Federal Program "Shelf" which supports production of high-tech plants and equipment for seabed mining of oil, gas and for development of hydrocarbon deposits at continental shelf of the Arctic  The first large project was offshore ice-resistant fixed platform (MLSP) "Prirazlomnaya" designed for development of oil deposit of the same name at the Pechora Bay shelf of the  Barents Sea. "Prirazlomnaya" iestimated operation life is 25 years for severe conditions.

    - Aircraft carrier "Admiral Gorshkov"

    - Cutters (boarder boats).

    The unique features of the system is the use of special technologies to manufacture the anodes and reference electrodes, as well as the long-term experience to produce the intelligent power supplies.

    ›  Technical behaviour

    Output current : 50 ? (Output current)

    Output voltage: 24 V
    ›  Assignment

    Advantages of active cathode protection:

    - full corrosion elimination for ship plating and weld joints;

    - reliability;

    - longevity;

    - ship plating thickness margin reduction;

    - minimum maintenance at maximum economical efficiency.


    "RIPR" JSC is developing the TPC-type static converters (for cathode-protection systems’ power supply):

     - TPC 1-200-24

    - TPC 3-200-24

    - TPC 3-200-36

    - TPC 3-200-36?.

    The converters for cathode-protection systems of ships and floating structures have the Certificates of Russian Maritime Registry of Shipping.  

    The Specifications of converters for cathode-protection systems for ships are established with due regard for ??? 6.1.40 requirements and approved by Central research Institute of Ministry of Defense.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:23 pm

    Thanks for the explanation.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:19 am

    You guys really annoy me sometimes...

    I want a pony and I want it now...

    Perhaps we could give them some credit for having more information in front of them than we have... who gives a fuck how long a boat take to build... if they are ordering Mistrals and when that falls through they are talking about building a new landing vessel in 2018-2020 or so then WTF would they want to bring the Ivan Rogovs back into service for?

    Why not put a Sverdlov back in service while you are at it.

    For all we know they might have plans to carry vehicles and aircraft that an IR can't carry. The Ivan Gren has already been rejected as a sea going long range landing vessel. They could use a couple to replace Alligator class vessels for instance, but they need to think in the long term... not based on the patience of Internet Warriors like us.


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  JohninMK on Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:15 am

    Ivan Gren" in the dock bmpd January 31st, 0:07

    As previously reported, is nearly completed construction at JSC "Baltic shipyard "Yantar" in Kaliningrad head a large landing ship "Ivan Gren" project 11711 is drydocked before the upcoming release on factory sea trials. There were photos of the "Ivan Gren" in floating dock of shipyard "Yantar".


    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1709701.html

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:31 am

    And the photos of the article







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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:You guys really annoy me sometimes...

    I want a pony and I want it now...

    Perhaps we could give them some credit for having more information in front of them than we have... who gives a fuck how long a boat take to build... if they are ordering Mistrals and when that falls through they are talking about building a new landing vessel in 2018-2020 or so then WTF would they want to bring the Ivan Rogovs back into service for?

    Why not put a Sverdlov back in service while you are at it.

    For all we know they might have plans to carry vehicles and aircraft that an IR can't carry. The Ivan Gren has already been rejected as a sea going long range landing vessel. They could use a couple to replace Alligator class vessels for instance, but they need to think in the long term... not based on the patience of Internet Warriors like us.

    No I think there's a valid point on the whole Ivan Gren project being unreasonably late, small and obsolete. I Rogov boats (both) had/have much more to offer. A decade ago through to... today. Seeing as they are built and do nothing atm. It's all about dedicating the right resources to the right direction. This class is the wrong direction. Aligators belong to a different era, trying to build an oversized version them today (and failing so hard) is unwise.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:45 pm

    Rogovs also designed in a different era, as part of the expansion of the Soviet Navy's amphibious capabilities in the 1970s.
    Only Moskalenko however could be brought back to service. The other ships decommissioned time nears 20 years so you realize how unnecessary and costly will be to return them in active status, or return only 1 ship of that class.
    I am sure they are qoing to work in an improved amphibious ship design


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:29 am


    Degaussing





    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1723554.html

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:26 am


    No I think there's a valid point on the whole Ivan Gren project being unreasonably late, small and obsolete.

    It is not a valid point... when they found the Ivan Gren was not suitable for the tasks they wanted it for they changed focus to the Mistrals... it would be unreasonable to suggest they should have put the Ivan Gren in service quickly as a matter of priority.

    Funds are not unlimited and there are a limited number of shipyards available too... the Ivan Grens will be used but they are nothing like a priority now so there is no hurry for them at all.


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:28 am

    for sure it will replace old alligator class ships


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Feb 06, 2016 10:24 am

    GarryB wrote:

    No I think there's a valid point on the whole Ivan Gren project being unreasonably late, small and obsolete.

    It is not a valid point... when they found the Ivan Gren was not suitable for the tasks they wanted it for they changed focus to the Mistrals... it would be unreasonable to suggest they should have put the Ivan Gren in service quickly as a matter of priority.

    Funds are not unlimited and there are a limited number of shipyards available too... the Ivan Grens will be used but they are nothing like a priority now so there is no hurry for them at all.

    Yeah ok, but horribly late, small and obsolete LST design. We should all agree on that. A larger but small LPD approach like San Giorgio or the Algerian BDSL would have had more utility, especially when having to deal with supporting war effort in the Middle East. Sure, Mistral was also a wrong decision, but different one.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:11 pm


    Guys we are arguing over nothing here at this point. Those two ships are almost done and they will definitely be put to good use. They are more than good enough for Black, Baltic or Mediterranean. And there is plenty of old transports who are approaching expiration date and need replacement.

    Important thing now is what comes after this class. Shipyard will soon be done with these two and production of next type should start otherwise they will be sitting idle.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:23 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Important thing now is what comes after this class. Shipyard will soon be done with these two and production of next type should start otherwise they will be sitting idle.

    They should definitely switch to LPDs at the 7,000 to 9,000 t range (which the shipyard can handle) and move away from LSTs. The italian designs are my personal preference (San Giusto in particular) but there's also Endurance class at Singapore Navy and Canterbury at New Zealand Navy.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Militarov on Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:40 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Important thing now is what comes after this class. Shipyard will soon be done with these two and production of next type should start otherwise they will be sitting idle.

    They should definitely switch to LPDs at the 7,000 to 9,000 t range (which the shipyard can handle) and move away from LSTs. The italian designs are my personal preference (San Giusto in particular) but there's also Endurance class at Singapore Navy and Canterbury at New Zealand Navy.

    Makassar-class production is in full swing for an example, or Yuzhao-class which is supposed to be cheaper (and way bigger) than most of the LPDs around.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:01 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Important thing now is what comes after this class. Shipyard will soon be done with these two and production of next type should start otherwise they will be sitting idle.

    They should definitely switch to LPDs at the 7,000 to 9,000 t range (which the shipyard can handle) and move away from LSTs. The italian designs are my personal preference (San Giusto in particular) but there's also Endurance class at Singapore Navy and Canterbury at New Zealand Navy.

    Makassar-class production is in full swing for an example, or Yuzhao-class which is supposed to be cheaper (and way bigger) than most of the LPDs around.

    Agreed, both also good examples and mature designs (is Makassar civil or mil spec?).
    Type 071 would be most ideal, if that particular Russian shipyard could handle it.

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