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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

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    Militarov
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Militarov on Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:38 pm

    sepheronx wrote:If the ships structure is made out metal than it will rust faster. Newer Russian ships use a mixture of composit material so it may not rust or take a lot longer.  Ivan Gren isnt new and the ship just pisses me off because od poor management decisions.

    Actually, I dont even know if a lot of the older ships were galvanized.  I know in Russia they opened up a second galvanizing shop for automotive but I dont know how it is done for ship building.  I imagine it is a more basic method in the recent past.

    Well marine steel itself should be somewhat more resistant to rust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_grade_stainless naturally there is like 50 variations of "marine grade steel"...
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Dima on Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:05 pm

    Ship hulls use cathodic protection where by the hull is protected from corrosion by introducing a more corrosive metal/plates (anode). These plates gets corroded with time and is replaced by new ones. Its a more practical approach and cost effective than new hull plates or using galvanized plates (making the plate a cathode by having a coating which acts as anode). 


    Russian Institute of Power Radiobuilding
    http://www.rimr.ru/eng/

    Ship cathode-protection systems

    JSC "RIPR" collaborates with Central Research Institute "Prometey" in the sphere of equipping the vessels, boats and floating stations with cathode-protection systems.

    Cathode-protection systems against corrosion of underwater parts of the bodies of sea vessels of unrestricted sailing area (incl. ice-beakers), as well as underwater parts of the bodies of floating power-plants, gas-and-oil producing platforms and other floating structures, with reduced voltage direct current with its automatic adjustment acc. to specified protection potential of the ship.

    Implemented projects:

    - Federal Program "Shelf" which supports production of high-tech plants and equipment for seabed mining of oil, gas and for development of hydrocarbon deposits at continental shelf of the Arctic  The first large project was offshore ice-resistant fixed platform (MLSP) "Prirazlomnaya" designed for development of oil deposit of the same name at the Pechora Bay shelf of the  Barents Sea. "Prirazlomnaya" iestimated operation life is 25 years for severe conditions.

    - Aircraft carrier "Admiral Gorshkov"

    - Cutters (boarder boats).

    The unique features of the system is the use of special technologies to manufacture the anodes and reference electrodes, as well as the long-term experience to produce the intelligent power supplies.

    ›  Technical behaviour

    Output current : 50 ? (Output current)

    Output voltage: 24 V
    ›  Assignment

    Advantages of active cathode protection:

    - full corrosion elimination for ship plating and weld joints;

    - reliability;

    - longevity;

    - ship plating thickness margin reduction;

    - minimum maintenance at maximum economical efficiency.


    "RIPR" JSC is developing the TPC-type static converters (for cathode-protection systems’ power supply):

     - TPC 1-200-24

    - TPC 3-200-24

    - TPC 3-200-36

    - TPC 3-200-36?.

    The converters for cathode-protection systems of ships and floating structures have the Certificates of Russian Maritime Registry of Shipping.  

    The Specifications of converters for cathode-protection systems for ships are established with due regard for ??? 6.1.40 requirements and approved by Central research Institute of Ministry of Defense.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  sepheronx on Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:23 pm

    Thanks for the explanation.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:19 am

    You guys really annoy me sometimes...

    I want a pony and I want it now...

    Perhaps we could give them some credit for having more information in front of them than we have... who gives a fuck how long a boat take to build... if they are ordering Mistrals and when that falls through they are talking about building a new landing vessel in 2018-2020 or so then WTF would they want to bring the Ivan Rogovs back into service for?

    Why not put a Sverdlov back in service while you are at it.

    For all we know they might have plans to carry vehicles and aircraft that an IR can't carry. The Ivan Gren has already been rejected as a sea going long range landing vessel. They could use a couple to replace Alligator class vessels for instance, but they need to think in the long term... not based on the patience of Internet Warriors like us.


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  JohninMK on Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:15 am

    Ivan Gren" in the dock bmpd January 31st, 0:07

    As previously reported, is nearly completed construction at JSC "Baltic shipyard "Yantar" in Kaliningrad head a large landing ship "Ivan Gren" project 11711 is drydocked before the upcoming release on factory sea trials. There were photos of the "Ivan Gren" in floating dock of shipyard "Yantar".


    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1709701.html
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:31 am

    And the photos of the article







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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:05 pm

    GarryB wrote:You guys really annoy me sometimes...

    I want a pony and I want it now...

    Perhaps we could give them some credit for having more information in front of them than we have... who gives a fuck how long a boat take to build... if they are ordering Mistrals and when that falls through they are talking about building a new landing vessel in 2018-2020 or so then WTF would they want to bring the Ivan Rogovs back into service for?

    Why not put a Sverdlov back in service while you are at it.

    For all we know they might have plans to carry vehicles and aircraft that an IR can't carry. The Ivan Gren has already been rejected as a sea going long range landing vessel. They could use a couple to replace Alligator class vessels for instance, but they need to think in the long term... not based on the patience of Internet Warriors like us.

    No I think there's a valid point on the whole Ivan Gren project being unreasonably late, small and obsolete. I Rogov boats (both) had/have much more to offer. A decade ago through to... today. Seeing as they are built and do nothing atm. It's all about dedicating the right resources to the right direction. This class is the wrong direction. Aligators belong to a different era, trying to build an oversized version them today (and failing so hard) is unwise.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:45 pm

    Rogovs also designed in a different era, as part of the expansion of the Soviet Navy's amphibious capabilities in the 1970s.
    Only Moskalenko however could be brought back to service. The other ships decommissioned time nears 20 years so you realize how unnecessary and costly will be to return them in active status, or return only 1 ship of that class.
    I am sure they are qoing to work in an improved amphibious ship design


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:29 am


    Degaussing





    http://bmpd.livejournal.com/1723554.html
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:26 am


    No I think there's a valid point on the whole Ivan Gren project being unreasonably late, small and obsolete.

    It is not a valid point... when they found the Ivan Gren was not suitable for the tasks they wanted it for they changed focus to the Mistrals... it would be unreasonable to suggest they should have put the Ivan Gren in service quickly as a matter of priority.

    Funds are not unlimited and there are a limited number of shipyards available too... the Ivan Grens will be used but they are nothing like a priority now so there is no hurry for them at all.


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:28 am

    for sure it will replace old alligator class ships


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:24 am

    GarryB wrote:

    No I think there's a valid point on the whole Ivan Gren project being unreasonably late, small and obsolete.

    It is not a valid point... when they found the Ivan Gren was not suitable for the tasks they wanted it for they changed focus to the Mistrals... it would be unreasonable to suggest they should have put the Ivan Gren in service quickly as a matter of priority.

    Funds are not unlimited and there are a limited number of shipyards available too... the Ivan Grens will be used but they are nothing like a priority now so there is no hurry for them at all.

    Yeah ok, but horribly late, small and obsolete LST design. We should all agree on that. A larger but small LPD approach like San Giorgio or the Algerian BDSL would have had more utility, especially when having to deal with supporting war effort in the Middle East. Sure, Mistral was also a wrong decision, but different one.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:11 pm


    Guys we are arguing over nothing here at this point. Those two ships are almost done and they will definitely be put to good use. They are more than good enough for Black, Baltic or Mediterranean. And there is plenty of old transports who are approaching expiration date and need replacement.

    Important thing now is what comes after this class. Shipyard will soon be done with these two and production of next type should start otherwise they will be sitting idle.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:23 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:Important thing now is what comes after this class. Shipyard will soon be done with these two and production of next type should start otherwise they will be sitting idle.

    They should definitely switch to LPDs at the 7,000 to 9,000 t range (which the shipyard can handle) and move away from LSTs. The italian designs are my personal preference (San Giusto in particular) but there's also Endurance class at Singapore Navy and Canterbury at New Zealand Navy.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Militarov on Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:40 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Important thing now is what comes after this class. Shipyard will soon be done with these two and production of next type should start otherwise they will be sitting idle.

    They should definitely switch to LPDs at the 7,000 to 9,000 t range (which the shipyard can handle) and move away from LSTs. The italian designs are my personal preference (San Giusto in particular) but there's also Endurance class at Singapore Navy and Canterbury at New Zealand Navy.

    Makassar-class production is in full swing for an example, or Yuzhao-class which is supposed to be cheaper (and way bigger) than most of the LPDs around.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:01 pm

    Militarov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Important thing now is what comes after this class. Shipyard will soon be done with these two and production of next type should start otherwise they will be sitting idle.

    They should definitely switch to LPDs at the 7,000 to 9,000 t range (which the shipyard can handle) and move away from LSTs. The italian designs are my personal preference (San Giusto in particular) but there's also Endurance class at Singapore Navy and Canterbury at New Zealand Navy.

    Makassar-class production is in full swing for an example, or Yuzhao-class which is supposed to be cheaper (and way bigger) than most of the LPDs around.

    Agreed, both also good examples and mature designs (is Makassar civil or mil spec?).
    Type 071 would be most ideal, if that particular Russian shipyard could handle it.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Militarov on Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:22 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    Militarov wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Important thing now is what comes after this class. Shipyard will soon be done with these two and production of next type should start otherwise they will be sitting idle.

    They should definitely switch to LPDs at the 7,000 to 9,000 t range (which the shipyard can handle) and move away from LSTs. The italian designs are my personal preference (San Giusto in particular) but there's also Endurance class at Singapore Navy and Canterbury at New Zealand Navy.

    Makassar-class production is in full swing for an example, or Yuzhao-class which is supposed to be cheaper (and way bigger) than most of the LPDs around.

    Agreed, both also good examples and mature designs (is Makassar civil or mil spec?).
    Type 071 would be most ideal, if that particular Russian shipyard could handle it.

    I belive its built by military standards. But ships of this kind and type are very often borrowing features from civilian ships anyways so its not much to worry about. When its about Yantar "Dimensions of the building site “Yantar” make it possible to construct ships and boats with launching weight up to 10,000 tons, displacement up to 12,000 tons, maximum length – 145 m, width – 26 meters."

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:33 pm

    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Important thing now is what comes after this class. Shipyard will soon be done with these two and production of next type should start otherwise they will be sitting idle.

    They should definitely switch to LPDs at the 7,000 to 9,000 t range (which the shipyard can handle) and move away from LSTs. The italian designs are my personal preference (San Giusto in particular) but there's also Endurance class at Singapore Navy and Canterbury at New Zealand Navy.

    Because the Italian designs are your personal preference, the Russian MoD should build ships accordingly scratch

    My friend, don't get polluted by western point of views that believe LPDs are the way to go and LSTs are obsolete. The Russian MoD will order the right ship within the existing circumstances.

    Beaching is just one of the tricks LSTs can do. These Smaller and cheaper vessels are also more practical and flexible because they can be used on a wider range of mission profiles including anti-piracy, patrol, rescue, surveillance etc. . An LPD is too valuable and cumbersome for such missions. There will be LPDs in the Russian Navy in the future for sure. They certainly will not be the Ivan Rogovs.

    The Ivan Gren class ships are going to be workhorses for the navy and will give excellent service throughout decades. Just look at the Ropuchas and elderly Alligator and their immense contributions to the landings in Abkhazia (2008) and the Syria express (presently).

    The Gren was supposed to enter service in 2012. They shipyard could have delivered on time. The many reasons the MoD delayed the entry in service date include: finances that were directed towards the Mistrals, the availability of a sufficient number of other LSTs (Ropuchas and Alligators), priority given to the Grigorovich frigates etc. etc.

    Also note that at 6000T full load, the Ivan Gren is the largest surface warship being commissioned into the navy since the Admiral Chabanenko in 1999. With a helicopter hangar, good sensor suite and sufficient accommodations, this ship is expected to be seen often on the seas where conflicts happen or could potentially happen.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:55 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:
    KiloGolf wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:Important thing now is what comes after this class. Shipyard will soon be done with these two and production of next type should start otherwise they will be sitting idle.

    They should definitely switch to LPDs at the 7,000 to 9,000 t range (which the shipyard can handle) and move away from LSTs. The italian designs are my personal preference (San Giusto in particular) but there's also Endurance class at Singapore Navy and Canterbury at New Zealand Navy.

    Because the Italian designs are your personal preference, the Russian MoD should build ships accordingly  scratch

    My friend, don't get polluted by western point of views that believe LPDs are the way to go and LSTs are obsolete. The Russian MoD will order the right ship within the existing circumstances.

    There's no east west here. We built 5 LSTs in the 90s and early 00s (4,500 t Jason class) and it was a bad decision overall, at a time when LPDs had or were proving their worth; carrying out expeditionary, relief, hospital, show the flag and operationally hot too (Trenton during Operation praying Mantis comes to mind vividly). Ability to have > 1 helicopter ports, ability to flood and host anything from a simple LCM, to a small LCAC or CB90. There's just some much more utility on an LPD vis a vis an LST of same tonnage. The examples I put here are not personal preference per se but tonnage related to that shipyard.

    TheArmenian wrote:The Ivan Gren class ships are going to be workhorses for the navy and will give excellent service throughout decades. Just look at the Ropuchas and elderly Alligator and their immense contributions to the landings in Abkhazia (2008) and the Syria express (presently).

    The Gren was supposed to enter service in 2012. They shipyard could have delivered on time. The many reasons the MoD delayed the entry in service date include: finances that were directed towards the Mistrals, the availability of a sufficient number of other LSTs (Ropuchas and Alligators), priority given to the Grigorovich frigates etc. etc.

    Also note that at 6000T full load, the Ivan Gren is the largest surface warship being commissioned into the navy since the Admiral Chabanenko in 1999. With a helicopter hangar, good sensor suite and sufficient accommodations, this ship is expected to be seen often on the seas where conflicts happen or could potentially happen.

    Admittedly Ivan Gren represents the better LST design, compared to those polish... "jobs program" designs (lets call them that). But I still notice for instance that the is no helicopter winch position amidship and no ability for vehicles on the front deck (an ability e.g. M. Moskalenko had).
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TheArmenian on Sat Feb 06, 2016 8:31 pm

    You keep going by western notions and western experiences (in this case your own navy's).
    Listen, if the Russians wanted to build an LPD, they would have built one.
    The original Russian Navy's vision was to have 4 Mistrals (ordered abroad) and a number of Grens (domestically produced) as their future blue water amphibious force. (Plus a number of smaller Dugon and Serna class vessels for short range local needs).

    Now that the Mistral deal has gone sour, they stated the Gren class will be limited to 2 ships.
    My personal guess is that there will be no large Mistral-sized amphibious ship orders as there are other priorities, limited finances and limited shipyard space. Instead, I suspect that once the Grigorovich class frigates and the second Gren LST are completed, the Kaliningrad shipyard will start building LPDs of 8,000 - 10,000 T displacement.

    Also note that the Gren class was to be inexpensive, the original armament was a lot heavier (including a 76mm gun etc.). The Navy decided to make it cheaper. So, just one helicopter with hangar. No winch position amidship or other goodies.
    As you said: it is just meant to be a better Ropucha/Alligator.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:22 pm




    I am just really curious to see what that next ship will look like... confused
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:40 pm

    TheArmenian wrote:You keep going by western notions and western experiences (in this case your own navy's).
    Listen, if the Russians wanted to build an LPD, they would have built one.

    No western notions whatsoever. My examples were referring to tonnage, design philosophy and time, not alliance. In fact I advocated them re-building Ivan Rogovs (one of them was hardly ever used) as a much preferable endeavor to this 12-year delayed small-ish LST. And honestly back in the early 00s they had not much choice on building any LPD from scratch.  The fact that they invested so much on an LST project and end up buying just two of them, simply signifies this as a failure.

    They only finish up whatever hulls and metal they procured and shut the whole thing down.
    Partly this reality supports my case.. unless they fall in love with the thing buy more of them. Not what it seems so far.

    TheArmenian wrote:The original Russian Navy's vision was to have 4 Mistrals (ordered abroad) and a number of Grens (domestically produced) as their future blue water amphibious force. (Plus a number of smaller Dugon and Serna class vessels for short range local needs).

    Now that the Mistral deal has gone sour, they stated the Gren class will be limited to 2 ships.
    My personal guess is that there will be no large Mistral-sized amphibious ship orders as there are other priorities, limited finances and limited shipyard space. Instead, I suspect that once the Grigorovich class frigates and the second Gren LST are completed, the Kaliningrad shipyard will start building LPDs of 8,000 - 10,000 T displacement.

    Also note that the Gren class was to be inexpensive, the original armament was a lot heavier (including a 76mm gun etc.). The Navy decided to make it cheaper. So, just one helicopter with hangar. No winch position amidship or other goodies.
    As you said: it is just meant to be a better Ropucha/Alligator.

    That makes a lot of sense.
    Also the first of your part, I didn't know, cheers.

    PS. The faster they induct LPDs in reasonable numbers (> 2 per fleet) the better for them in terms of their Middle East policy, Med, Black Sea and so on.
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:28 pm

    Landing ship "Ivan Gren" will be transferred to the Russian Navy in 2nd quarter of 2016


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  marat on Fri Mar 11, 2016 10:23 pm

    George1 wrote:Landing ship "Ivan Gren" will be transferred to the Russian Navy in 2nd quarter of 2016

    Postponed again....
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Dima on Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:17 pm

    Postponed from 2nd quater?
    Would have been good to see them in service while Kuznetsov is in the Mediterranean.

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