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    PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:41 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The J-20 isn't direct Su-35 counterpart, they complement each other. They want to invest in their own industry & master production of everything their military may need. Naval aviation is especially dangerous business, & mishaps happen often even in the most experienced USN. These r growing pains, just looking good isn't their main goal.

    Yes but China would be better off if it had a more trustworthy relationship with Russia.

    China just does these shameless copies to save a few bucks and then wonders why Russia wont sell carrier ready jets.

    China is building a blue water navy ffs. If there really is so few of these jets and they have problems then the carrier program is way further behind thn anyone realizes

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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:04 pm

    They r not exact copies, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing this. They do it to save time also in order to catch up with others faster. W/o domestic production, they'll need to import fighters like India, Indonesia, both Koreas & Vietnam do now.
    Even if they'll be stuck with smaller fighters until J-15 is fixed or a new 1 is built, it won't greatly affect their carrier ops in the China Seas. Land based fighters can always be called to help.
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    Pierre Sprey

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Pierre Sprey on Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:23 pm

    The Chinese Navy is not about preparing for a fight with the US. It is about the prestige of building a blue water navy with the power projection capability that it entails.

    Not having a solid batch of carrier jets looks bad on them. I am all for the Chinese navy. The world desperately needs a balancing force on the water to balance the USA. Which is why I think China should stop worrying about letting Russia do some of its work. A joint naval jet would be the best idea. They talk about sharing carrier decks in the future anyway

    Russia could have even built them a Sthorm carrier. (that's going too far)
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:41 pm

    The real combat capabilities of China's giant fleet are clearly exaggerated
    https://vz.ru/world/2018/7/13/932028.print.html

    To be able to balance the USA, they must be able to fight the USN & USAF.
    "They talk about sharing carrier decks in the future anyway."
    That's possible, but please post relevant quotes with references.
    "Russia could have even built them a Shtorm carrier." India didn't want it, although they need a CVN even more; the PRC builds her own CVs now & may build a CVN later after a nuclear icebreaker is built 1st. I doubt they'll want to order Shtorm, there's no urgency in that, besides, Russia will not build it for China as to not damage her relations with India & not to arm a future potential enemy.

    walle83

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  walle83 on Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:21 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:The real combat capabilities of China's giant fleet are clearly exaggerated
    https://vz.ru/world/2018/7/13/932028.print.html

    To be able to balance the USA, they must be able to fight the USN & USAF.
    "They talk about sharing carrier decks in the future anyway."
    That's possible, but please post relevant quotes with references.
    "Russia could have even built them a Shtorm carrier." India didn't want it, although they need a CVN even more; the PRC builds her own CVs now & may build a CVN later after a nuclear icebreaker is built 1st. I doubt they'll want to order Shtorm, there's no urgency in that, besides, Russia will not build it for China as to not damage her relations with India & not to arm a future potential enemy.  

    Its fun to read how people always downplay the PLA. What is intresting is how their capibilities are growing and what direction and goals they have. China has gone from a green-water navy to a basicly blue water-navy in less then 20 years. That is a fantastic achievement.
    Could they today fight against the enitre US Navy and USAF, no.
    Could they fight them on equal terms in 10-15 years, most likley.

    China has this planned out and is steaming ahead with full speed.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:26 am

    IMO, this is an objective criticism backed by facts, unlike earlier 1s from others who doubted their ability to progress so fast. The Shang & Ming Dynasties already had the most powerful blue water navies; some of their ships may have reached Australia, NZ & America before the Europeans. Their descendants r the same Chinese we see today.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3152556/Did-China-discover-AMERICA-Ancient-Chinese-script-carved-rocks-prove-Asians-lived-New-World-3-300-years-ago.html

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/pi/index.htm

    https://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/11/24/1037697982893.html

    http://www.gavinmenzies.net/Evidence/18-annex-18-evidence-of-chinese-fleets-visit-to-new-zealand/

    So, in a decade or 2 they'll come a full circle.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:51 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:35 am

    walle83 wrote:

    Its fun to read how people always downplay the PLA. What is intresting is how their capibilities are growing and what direction and goals they have. China has gone from a green-water navy to a basicly blue water-navy in less then 20 years. That is a fantastic achievement.
    Could they today fight against the enitre US Navy and USAF, no.
    Could they fight them on equal terms in 10-15 years, most likley.

    China has this planned out and is steaming ahead with full speed.

    All is not going according to plan for the PLAN.  The J-15 is being scrapped after 4 losses as being unsafe and unreliable with a faulty flight control system.  The Type 0001A was put in dry dock after only a few days at sea suffering from a serious design flaw yet to be released.  The project manager is behind bars on charges of corruption.  The carrier aviation programme is turning out to be a complete disaster.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:49 am

    Time will tell, too many unknowns to say that! Even with negative results they'll learn what must be learned. Even as LHAs with only helicopters & UAVs they can do a lot of missions in the China Seas.
    For the right $, the Russians could help in fixing J-15s. If not, prhaps
    the JL-9/FTC-2000 fighter jet trainer could be fully navalized; it
    can also act as a light attack aircraft. It can carry up to 2000 kg of weapons including air to air missiles and for ground attack it can carry unguided rockets and bombs. http://chinesemilitaryreview.blogspot.com/2011/12/chinese-jl-9g-naval-fighter-jet-trainer.html

    The JL-9G is a modified JL-9 for aircraft carrier training. It is designed for ski-jump ramp takeoffs and simulated arrested landings (land-based). and includes a tailhook.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guizhou_JL-9#Variants

    walle83

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  walle83 on Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:29 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    walle83 wrote:

    Its fun to read how people always downplay the PLA. What is intresting is how their capibilities are growing and what direction and goals they have. China has gone from a green-water navy to a basicly blue water-navy in less then 20 years. That is a fantastic achievement.
    Could they today fight against the enitre US Navy and USAF, no.
    Could they fight them on equal terms in 10-15 years, most likley.

    China has this planned out and is steaming ahead with full speed.

    All is not going according to plan for the PLAN.  The J-15 is being scrapped after 4 losses as being unsafe and unreliable with a faulty flight control system.  The Type 0001A was put in dry dock after only a few days at sea suffering from a serious design flaw yet to be released.  The project manager is behind bars on charges of corruption.  The carrier aviation programme is turning out to be a complete disaster.

    I doubt the J-15 is being scrapped, although all new projects will suffer from child diseases. U should remember that China has gone from 0 experience with carriers to full size flat tops in less then 10 years. Also the J-15 is not the preferd aircraft for the PLA, newer aircrafts, maybe based on the lighter J-31, will replace it sooner or later.
    As for the 001A carrier we shall see. Remember even the USS Ford had large problems and HMS Queen Elizabeth was leaking after its first sea trails.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Jul 22, 2018 1:40 pm

    walle83 wrote:

    I doubt the J-15 is being scrapped, although all new projects will suffer from child diseases. U should remember that China has gone from 0 experience with carriers to full size flat tops in less then 10 years. Also the J-15 is not the preferd aircraft for the PLA, newer aircrafts, maybe based on the lighter J-31, will replace it sooner or later.
    As for the 001A carrier we shall see. Remember even the USS Ford had large problems and HMS Queen Elizabeth was leaking after its first sea trails.

    Actually China started their carrier programme in the 1980s with the purchase of HMAS Melbourne so this has been over 30 years in the making. The J-15 suffered two crashes in testing and two crashes in operations killing four pilots. Out of a couple dozen airframes four losses is quite heavy so they have chosen to stop production. It will take many years to navalise the J-31 which still doesn't have a Chinese engine option. It is not known exactly what is wrong with the new carrier but a maiden voyage for a carrier is supposed to last 6 weeks and the Type 001A ended up in dry dock within days. The project manager was suddenly thrown in prison on charges of graft as this happened. Even if the carrier can be fixed in short time they still don't have a reliable aircraft to fly from it. They could turn it into an ASW carrier like the Japanese full of helicopters as least until a better fighter is produced.
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    Isos

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Isos on Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:15 pm

    @Vladimir do you know if may end up buying mig-35 for their carriers ? They said mig-35 is already able to land on a carrier.

    India which was the main target client for mig-35 doesn't seem to be intersted to buy it so why not give it to china ? Mig is in a bad state, that would be very good for them to sell 100 fighters to china.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:08 pm

    walle83 wrote: U should remember that China has gone from 0 experience with carriers to full size flat tops in less than 10 years.
    Only the USN, Brazilian, & French Navy have flat tops now; STOBARs of Russia, China, UK, Spain, Italy, India, & Thailand with their upturned bows r not.
    They said mig-35 is already able to land on a carrier.
    But is it fully navalized? A C-130 also landed on a CV many times. Even helicopters must be fully navalized for continuous use at sea.
    China's Workhorse J-15 Fighter Jet Still Alive and Kicking
    https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201807141066350508-china-fighter-jet-expert/
    I agree with with him. After it's fixed, they'll likely use it on CATOBARs too until the replacement is ready.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:48 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : add link, text)
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    Isos

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Isos on Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:50 pm

    But is it fully navalized? A C-130 also landed on a CV many times.
    Even helicopters must be fully navalized for continuous use at sea.

    Much more easier to navalize mig-35 for russian that worked on the modern mig-29k than j-31 for chinesz that worked on a copy of su-33.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:24 pm

    China wants to produce her own planes, but it'll cost a lot more to make MiG-35 copy than to fix J-15, even if it's a dead end in the long run. So, since they won't be producing MiG-35 copies, I doubt they'll be importing them, even as a stop gap. In range & payload, it's inferior to the J-15. India & PRC now operate their SU-30s on land, but at sea the Chinese want to be superior to the Indians.
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    AlfaT8

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:56 pm

    Odd, has no one considered Navalising the J-10 instead, granted it is a lightweight, but it should be fine for most Air engagements, that said, the Mig-29K could carry more, but i doubt India would ever give the green light.

    IMO, these 2 options are the fastest stopgap until the J-15 is finally ready.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:27 pm

    I did!
    Tsavo Lion wrote:Perhaps the J-10/20 could be navalized, but I doubt they'll do it.  
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-10#Variants

    The J-20 has similar dimensions as the F-111; it will need a bigger CV/N to deploy it in optimal #s:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chengdu_J-20#Specifications
    https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-111.htm
    At this point, their best bet is to stick with the J-15- there is no guarantee that expensive & lengthy J-10 navalization will be successful. A new batch of pilots will need to be trained/retrained for it. Besides, is its single engine reliable enough for sea duty?


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Isos

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Isos on Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:27 pm

    AlfaT8 wrote:Odd, has no one considered Navalising the J-10 instead, granted it is a lightweight, but it should be fine for most Air engagements, that said, the Mig-29K could carry more, but i doubt India would ever give the green light.

    IMO, these 2 options are the fastest stopgap until the J-15 is finally ready.

    Who cares about india ? They already gave su-35 to china, why not mig-35 if india doesn't buy it and instead buy western planes ?

    China wants to produce her own planes, but it'll cost a lot more to make MiG-35 copy than to fix J-15, even if it's a dead end in the long run. So, since they won't be producing MiG-35 copies, I doubt they'll be importing them, even as a stop gap. In range & payload, it's inferior to the J-15. India & PRC now operate their SU-30s on land, but at sea the Chinese want to be superior to the Indians.

    J-15 is dead and they are not satisfied with. IMO they will go for a 5th gen naval fighter which will take another 10 years to complete, probably j-31.

    They will need something during those years I bet they will buy some migs.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:00 pm

    Isos wrote:@Vladimir do you know if may end up buying mig-35 for their carriers ? They said mig-35 is already able to land on a carrier.

    India which was the main target client for mig-35 doesn't seem to be intersted to buy it so why not give it to china ? Mig is in a bad state, that would be very good for them to sell 100 fighters to china.

    I am rather sure they won't do that.  They would develop J-31 before trying it. China cares more about appearance of power than actual projection.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:19 pm

    No, they care about both, & having local superiority in vital areas. If they just show the flag w/o any substance under it, others will call them "a paper tiger" & they'll loose face- the worst thing in Asia.

    walle83

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  walle83 on Sun Jul 22, 2018 10:35 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    walle83 wrote:

    I doubt the J-15 is being scrapped, although all new projects will suffer from child diseases. U should remember that China has gone from 0 experience with carriers to full size flat tops in less then 10 years. Also the J-15 is not the preferd aircraft for the PLA, newer aircrafts, maybe based on the lighter J-31, will replace it sooner or later.
    As for the 001A carrier we shall see. Remember even the USS Ford had large problems and HMS Queen Elizabeth was leaking after its first sea trails.

    Actually China started their carrier programme in the 1980s with the purchase of HMAS Melbourne so this has been over 30 years in the making.  The J-15 suffered two crashes in testing and two crashes in operations killing four pilots.  Out of a couple dozen airframes four losses is quite heavy so they have chosen to stop production.  It will take many years to navalise the J-31 which still doesn't have a Chinese engine option.  It is not known exactly what is wrong with the new carrier but a maiden voyage for a carrier is supposed to last 6 weeks and the Type 001A ended up in dry dock within days.  The project manager was suddenly thrown in prison on charges of graft as this happened.  Even if the carrier can be fixed in short time they still don't have a reliable aircraft to fly from it.  They could turn it into an ASW carrier like the Japanese full of helicopters as least until a better fighter is produced.

    In the making perheps, not with active carriers. As for the J-15 they just started flying night ops from the Liaoning so i doubt anything will stop that project. Do u have any sources that the production has been halted?
    As for the new 001A carrier it has actually left the dry dock again, not started trails again yet though.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Jul 22, 2018 11:04 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:No, they care about both, & having local superiority in vital areas. If they just show the flag w/o any substance under it, others will call them "a paper tiger" & they'll loose face- the worst thing in Asia.

    They don't report on all of the problems within their military like others do. If people found out the true state of it they would lose face. They have not had a single combat operation in almost 40 years and the last they fought was a total disaster. Russia has waged war in Georgia, Ukraine and kept up combat operations in Syria. There is no replacement for actual operational experience. It is what reveals all of the problems that are not addressed on paper and leads to real solutions to fix them. China does not have this making them a paper tiger.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Jul 23, 2018 12:00 am

    They did a lot of exercises at home & with Russia. Their navy did combined anti-piracy ops. in the Indian Ocean & SE Asia. Their "volunteers" recently fought in Myanmar. They shot down a BM & 2 satellites, tested nukes, sent men into orbit, probes to the Moon, have 4 SSBNs, & lifted 70% of its population out of poverty in the last~40 years.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Chinese_anti-ballistic_missile_test
    https://www.popsci.com/china-space-missile-test

    The USSR threatened PRC, I remember the FM A. Gromyko saying on TV: "withdraw from Vietnam, before it's too late". That war would have lasted longer & that country could become a Chinese province if not for that. Sometimes the Chinese tiger is weak, sick, & hungry; but it always heals itself back to power. So, it may appear as a paper tiger but in reality it's not- as Sun Tzu wrote: "when weak, appear to be strong; when strong, appear to be weak".
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:56 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:They did a lot of exercises at home & with Russia. Their navy did combined anti-piracy ops. in the Indian Ocean & SE Asia. Their "volunteers" recently fought in Myanmar. They shot down a BM & 2 satellites, tested nukes, sent men into orbit, probes to the Moon, have 4 SSBNs, & lifted 70% of its population out of poverty in the last~40 years.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Chinese_anti-ballistic_missile_test
    https://www.popsci.com/china-space-missile-test

    The USSR threatened PRC, I remember the FM A. Gromyko saying on TV: "withdraw from Vietnam, before it's too late". That war would have lasted longer & that country could become a Chinese province if not for that. Sometimes the Chinese tiger is weak, sick, & hungry; but it always heals itself back to power. So, it may appear as a paper tiger but in reality it's not- as Sun Tzu wrote: "when weak, appear to be strong; when  strong, appear to be weak".

    Their SSBNs never left port, one of them sank in the harbour. That moon probe broke down within minutes of landing. The video of the space walk had bubbles in it like they were in a pool, they released the transcript of a space walk before they even launched the mission. They shot things down they had months to prepare for. Calling ethnic Chinese from Myanmar as combat experience for the Chinese military, now that is funny. Anti-piracy patrols is an action for a Coast Guard, not a Navy. When Chinese conduct exercises in Russia their tanks break down because the steel used in their torsion bars is not strong enough.

    walle83

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  walle83 on Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:43 am

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    Tsavo Lion wrote:They did a lot of exercises at home & with Russia. Their navy did combined anti-piracy ops. in the Indian Ocean & SE Asia. Their "volunteers" recently fought in Myanmar. They shot down a BM & 2 satellites, tested nukes, sent men into orbit, probes to the Moon, have 4 SSBNs, & lifted 70% of its population out of poverty in the last~40 years.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Chinese_anti-ballistic_missile_test
    https://www.popsci.com/china-space-missile-test

    The USSR threatened PRC, I remember the FM A. Gromyko saying on TV: "withdraw from Vietnam, before it's too late". That war would have lasted longer & that country could become a Chinese province if not for that. Sometimes the Chinese tiger is weak, sick, & hungry; but it always heals itself back to power. So, it may appear as a paper tiger but in reality it's not- as Sun Tzu wrote: "when weak, appear to be strong; when  strong, appear to be weak".

    Their SSBNs never left port, one of them sank in the harbour.  That moon probe broke down within minutes of landing.  The video of the space walk had bubbles in it like they were in a pool, they released the transcript of a space walk before they even launched the mission.  They shot things down they had months to prepare for.   Calling ethnic Chinese from Myanmar as combat experience for the Chinese military, now that is funny.  Anti-piracy patrols is an action for a Coast Guard, not a Navy.  When Chinese conduct exercises in Russia their tanks break down because the steel used in their torsion bars is not strong enough.

    Ok, now u r starting to sound like a troll.

    China started its SSBN patrols in 2015. https://thediplomat.com/2015/12/china-deploys-first-nuclear-deterrence-patrol/
    I never heard about any 094 sub sinking in any harbor, source please?
    Fake space walk and bubbles?? Give us a break Laughing
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:43 am

    walle83 wrote:

    Ok, now u r starting to sound like a troll.

    China started its SSBN patrols in 2015. https://thediplomat.com/2015/12/china-deploys-first-nuclear-deterrence-patrol/
    I never heard about any 094 sub sinking in any harbor, source please?
    Fake space walk and bubbles?? Give us a break Laughing

    You might want to be careful who you are calling a troll. Consider that fair warning. Now if you want to have a serious discussion you can refer back the Xia class which sank during testing. China has had SSBNs far longer than 2015 but they never patrolled because they were afraid they would be lost at sea like the first one.

    Xia class lost pier-side in 1985.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=V9nsypAwGGYC&pg=PA168&lpg=PA168&dq=Type+092+sunk+jane%27s&source=bl&ots=94JsPZ9AQ0&sig=roORnALWa36Ioej-JW13AFwyq0c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8otjf9rTcAhXnx1kKHTyMC3wQ6AEIRjAG#v=onepage&q=Type%20092%20sunk%20jane's&f=false

    Fake space walk



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