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    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Thu Feb 27, 2020 5:50 am

    Not really... those places you mention are heavily defended hostile territory... it would make more sense to go somewhere like Venezuela due to the distance and logistics because that is what they need to learn and work out... how to make a group of ships mobile and self sufficient without a constant stream of support ships constantly supplying them with the things they need to operate...

    Contact with other friendly navies would also be important to build ties and create a reason to actually have a blue water navy...

    I think China will be surprised at the reaction of countries to their visits... I think most countries not aligned with the west would welcome them and appreciate their ability to get there with a useful group of ships and subs... a visit to Iran would be popular and would also send a message to the west that China can decide who it wants to be friends with... an important message from China.

    A good will visit to India would be a nice gesture for both countries too.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:40 am

    those places you mention are heavily defended hostile territory...
    With the current Brazilian leadership & US bases in the Caribbean & Colombia, not to mention Florida, it'll be easy for the US to make S. America a fortress.
    ..it would make more sense to go somewhere like Venezuela due to the distance and logistics because that is what they need to learn and work out...
    they could circumnavigate Madagascar, Indonesia &/ Australia for less $ & time. Besides, they already got good training in the last few years with DDG/FFGs in Red, Med., Black, Baltic & Arabian Seas.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:27 am

    Upgraded Type 053H3 frigate boasts a new anti-aircraft missile system and close-in weapon system
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Mar 06, 2020 2:36 am

    With the current Brazilian leadership & US bases in the Caribbean & Colombia, not to mention Florida, it'll be easy for the US to make S. America a fortress.

    Yeah, I think you are a bit confused... even the best defended fortress can often be accessed on a daily basis by signing up for the tour... they show you around and have the doors open and gates unlocked...

    Even if you doubled the number of US bases in the region how are they going to stop Chinese ships from moving through international waters to visit Venezuela?

    they could circumnavigate Madagascar, Indonesia &/ Australia for less $ & time.

    That is practically their own back yard... what point would there be in such a trip?

    Even Kirov class cruisers from Russia can visit Venezuela on a good will trip with a few support ships... are you saying the new Chinese Navy with its new aircraft carriers and destroyers by the dozens can't leave the Pacific?

    The whole point of the trip would be to test whether the force can operate independently so operating a few thousands kms from China itself is hardly much of a test in that regard. Operating in the Atlantic will be much more of a test and can lead to contacts and relationships that will make such deployments easier... Australia is hardly going to send a supply ship to provide extra food or water to a Chinese fleet as they pass, but Cuba and Venezuela could offer support... but how do you know what sort of support they would need until you go?

    Actually going means you can quickly work out what sort of cooperation you might benefit from... what you might need to add to your supply ship capacity, and of course improve friendly relations with countries really under Americas thumb and likely wanting to find an alternative trade partner because of that fact.

    ...all good things for China and those countries that are prepared to test the waters.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Mar 06, 2020 3:55 am

    Yeah, I think you are a bit confused... even the best defended fortress can often be accessed on a daily basis by signing up for the tour... they show you around and have the doors open and gates unlocked...
    even then, not before leaving cameras & weapons outside.
    Even if you doubled the number of US bases in the region how are they going to stop Chinese ships from moving through international waters to visit Venezuela?
    they can visit at their own risk, should tensions rise.
    That is practically their own back yard... what point would there be in such a trip?
    it's closer to home & still far enough to get a feel of what blue water ops r like; the Red & Tasmanian Seas rn't their backyard like the Yellow Sea. More months can be spent at sea to imitate longer distances from a homeport.
    ..are you saying the new Chinese Navy with its new aircraft carriers and destroyers by the dozens can't leave the Pacific?
    they can but there's no need to. Their AOR is in the China seas & W. Pacific; with more CV/Ns ready, they'll go to the Indian Ocean, esp. after the Kra Canal is built, allowing for faster & safer transits. IMO they have more need to train sub crews in long distance ops.
    The whole point of the trip would be to test whether the force can operate independently so operating a few thousands kms from China itself is hardly much of a test in that regard. Operating in the Atlantic will be much more of a test and can lead to contacts and relationships that will make such deployments easier...

    if they r not going to enforce anything or fight there, w/o local superiority, why waste time & $? Besides, they want to make point of being defencive & not threatening any1 with flattops; the NATO navies r a lot stronger in the Atlantic & ther's no need to raise the stakes & wave a red flag in front of a bull. An icebreaker or a hospital ship will show the flag w/o creating so much alarm. In fact, it already happened: https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2018/09/22/chinese-hospital-ship-stops-in-turbulent-venezuela/
    http://eng.chinamil.com.cn/special-reports/node_50862.htm

    ..you can quickly work out what sort of cooperation you might benefit from... what you might need to add to your supply ship capacity, and of course improve friendly relations with countries really under Americas thumb..
    Smaller ships can do that as they did before, w/o thumbing their nose at the Americans.
    franco
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    Post  franco on Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:12 pm

    http://cimsec.org/chinas-bid-for-maritime-primacy-in-an-era-of-total-competition/43146

    affraid

    cry

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    Hole
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    Post  Hole on Sat Mar 07, 2020 4:58 pm

    Don´t do what we do! Embarassed
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    Post  GarryB on Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:16 am

    even then, not before leaving cameras & weapons outside.

    You are taking my analogy too far... how could the US demand that Chinese military ships and subs disarm before moving through international waters to visit Venezuela or Cuba or Mexico for that matter... that is just absurd.

    The purpose of the visit is not to invade Venezuela or Cuba or Mexico, it is a GOOD WILL VISIT... that they can use to test their forces... it takes certain skills in terms of logistics to operate that far from home for any length of time... they don't have to blow anything up on their first visit for it to be useful... they can learn how to operate for longer periods without a close resupply force that they would have if they were sitting in the middle of the Pacific.

    This is not a test of Chinese military power, it is a test and an exercise of power projection and endurance... can they send a force to South Africa to support a BRICS ally in time of need?

    The more they go out in to the world the more they will find what they can or cannot do... do they need to send food from mainland China or are there places in different regions where they can source foods or fuels much quicker and cheaper... while in Venezuela can they operate with supplies from Venezuela instead of having to ship food from China... it would be much cheaper to get local foods and produce, but they wont know that till they try it.

    Other countries in the region might want to sell products to them too to support them and any other Chinese ships in the area...

    It is how international ties are created and supported.

    they can visit at their own risk, should tensions rise.

    Any blockade of a Chinese carrier group would be an act of war... love to see the US try that on...



    it's closer to home & still far enough to get a feel of what blue water ops r like; the Red & Tasmanian Seas rn't their backyard like the Yellow Sea. More months can be spent at sea to imitate longer distances from a homeport.

    There is no value in such a visit... who are they going to develop warmer ties with Australia? What new support bases can they set up in that region? Total waste of time and money.

    they can but there's no need to. Their AOR is in the China seas & W. Pacific; with more CV/Ns ready, they'll go to the Indian Ocean, esp. after the Kra Canal is built, allowing for faster & safer transits. IMO they have more need to train sub crews in long distance ops.

    If they are just going to operate their aircraft carriers in the Asis Pacific region then they might as well saved their money and just bought some long range inflight refuelling tankers and long range fighters...


    if they r not going to enforce anything or fight there, w/o local superiority, why waste time & $?

    Central and South America is a large market that the US has isolated from the rest of the world... because they are censored . If China wants to expand... especially after the US dollar collapses and is worthless then they need to trade with central and south american countries as well as countries in Asia and Africa, because it will be these countries that make food and raw materials and products of value that means something while the west will remain the masters of smoke and mirrors.... financial institutions like moodies who don't make anything or do anything except lie about the value of economies and companies to pretend the west makes things of value... hedge fund managers... you know... criminals...

    China will be much better off with trade relations with Venezuela and its enormous oil potential than with the US and her sanctions and valueless money it prints faster than toilet paper...

    Besides, they want to make point of being defencive & not threatening any1 with flattops; the NATO navies r a lot stronger in the Atlantic & ther's no need to raise the stakes & wave a red flag in front of a bull.

    China has supersonic anti ship missiles... not hypersonic yet, but they are probably working on it... so how strong are those HATO navies you are talking about?

    An icebreaker or a hospital ship will show the flag w/o creating so much alarm. In fact, it already happened

    Yeah, It was not a hospital ship that stopped the US from invading Venezuela... it was the realisation that the majority actually supported Maduro and their guy was a chimp that very few supported... and those that did support him were rich and would most likely run away if there was a war rather than fight for US interests...

    If the US had decided to invade a Chinese carrier group arriving would have changed their minds... not because they would be afraid of one Chinese carrier group, but because the presence would have escalated the situation to the point where they might get in to a war with China and their interests in venezuela didn't warrant that sort of escalation.

    Smaller ships can do that as they did before, w/o thumbing their nose at the Americans.

    If China or Russia can't send a carrier group to a central or south american country then which central or south american country is going to choose to deal with China or Russia and risk petty nasty revenge shit from the US?

    A carrier group from Russia or China or both will break the chains the US has on the region... only a few countries are prepared to oppose the US and they have suffered for that... with a Russian and or Chinese carrier group able to visit and counter threats from the US... ie can supply medicine and food and trade to replace anything the US can threaten to block then it makes it much easier for those countries to get a better trade relationship with the rest of the world... including africa and asia and europe... which will be much better for those american countries because the US are censored .



    And Hahahahahaha... @ Franco... thanks for posting... hilarious... those evil Chinese are trying to replace the US as the bully bad boys in the Pacific and take over their role of bullying and threatening and stealing from small countries... except there is no evidence they want anything other than to make the US stop doing those things itself... certainly in the case of chinese affairs in the region...

    Don´t do what we do!

    Worse than that... we are appealing to those we bully around and selectively enforce international rulings that we make ourselves against and selectively ignore similar rulings against ourselves when it suits us, to stop another country we bully from becoming powerful enough that we can't bully any more because they might be as bad as us...


    FUCK OFF.... go China go China go China...
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:18 am

    If they are just going to operate their aircraft carriers in the Asis Pacific region then they might as well saved their money and just bought some long range inflight refuelling tankers and long range fighters...
    for sustained presence in the SC Sea, W. Pac. & later in the Indian Ocean, CBGs r needed.
    so how strong are those HATO navies you are talking about?
    The US 2nd & 6th fleets, RN, FN, Italian & Spanish navies also have CV/Ns, subs+many air tankers, AWACSs, MPA & land based long range fighters/bombers with bases in the Med. Sea, along/on the N/S Atlantic coasts/islands, & on Greenland, Iceland, Falklands, & the Azores.
    Even some F-15Es with Combat radius: 790 mi (687 nmi, 1,270 km) can carry 6× AGM-65 Maverick, 2× AGM-84 Harpoon, 2× AGM-84H/K SLAM-ER:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-15E_Strike_Eagle#Specifications_(F-15E)

    The F/A-18E/F has 1.75 less Combat radius: 390 nmi (449 mi, 722 km),
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_F/A-18E/F_Super_Hornet#Specifications_(F/A-18E/F)

    Eurofighter armed with Sea_Killer missiles has Combat range: 1,389 km (863 mi, 750 nmi)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon#Specifications
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Killer

    The USN may be assisted by some B-1B/B-2/21/52s in anti-ship roles:
    https://www.airforcemag.com/PDF/MagazineArchive/Magazine%20Documents/2019/September%202019/Naval%20Power%20graphic.pdf
    https://thediplomat.com/2018/05/2-long-range-anti-ship-missiles-test-fired-from-b-1b-successfully-hit-moving-ship/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-158C_LRASM#Design

    To date, the B-1B is the only one of the three that has launched an LRASM, but both the B-52 and B-2 could be adapted easily to carry them. Other weapons could also be used in the maritime strike mission aboard bombers. Though Air Force aircraft have never launched Tomahawk cruise missiles, it is slightly smaller and lighter than the AGM-86C/D conventional air-launched cruise missile—of which a B-52 can carry 20. The US Navy is slated to deploy an anti-ship variant of the Tomahawk in the 2020s. Thus, the possibility of integrating an anti-ship variant of the Tomahawk onto B-52s and B-1Bs should be investigated as a possibility to enhance maritime attack capabilities for little additional investment. ..a single bomber equipped with LRASMs could launch a salvo equal to that of a destroyer or submarine—and two bombers could launch as many as an entire carrier air wing. In addition to the strike flexibility of their weapons, the range and speed of bombers allow for great operational flexibility in the maritime mission. All three Air Force bomber types have flown numerous long-range sorties from bases in the United States to strike targets in Asia, then safely returned home. The unrefueled combat radius of Air Force bombers—the maximum distance they can travel to a target and return—is between 2,500 and 4,500 nm, depending on the variant and payload. With this range bombers can strike from distant bases safe from enemy attack, approach from unpredictable directions, and attack from multiple azimuths simultaneously. ..The mobility of maritime targets presents a complex targeting and cueing problem. However, in just two hours, two B-52s can monitor 140,000 square miles (364,000 square kilometers) of ocean surface—orders of magnitude greater than possible with two surface ships. This mission area also epitomizes the potential to engage via a “combat cloud” approach that links together various sensor and shooter aircraft and surface platforms. In the 1980s, the Air Force and Navy practiced strike cueing by using the E-2C, P-3, and E-3A AWACS to cue B-52s. In 2004, as Pacific Air Force’s director of operations, I orchestrated the “Resultant Fury” test exercise demonstrating that an E-8 JSTARS aircraft could find and track maritime targets and pass that information to B-52s and their weapons to strike ships under way. The Navy’s P-8 and MQ-4C remotely piloted aircraft can also detect and track maritime targets and share that information to bombers. Networking capability has steadily improved across the Air Force and Navy.
    https://www.airforcemag.com/article/maritime-strike/

    https://www.stripes.com/news/b-2-strategic-bombers-land-at-azores-base-at-start-of-european-deployment-1.621765

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWUKhzMJius

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VavSuj-sx6c

    The U.S. Navy meanwhile is looking to upgrade its P-8 Neptune maritime patrol planes—already Harpoon-capable, but normally focused primarily on submarine hunting missions—to carry LRASM as well as naval mines, decoys, and precision glide bombs that would effectively turn the souped-up Boeing 737 airliners into bombers.
    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/billy-mitchell-redux-heavy-bomber-returning-navy-killer-121586

    https://sofrep.com/fightersweep/could-the-b-21-raider-be-the-answer-to-the-navys-anti-ship-missile-problem/

    Modified C-130Js/17s & A-400Ms may release dozens of U/CAVs to track & engage ships & planes. 2 SSGNs in the Atlantic rearmed with 154 AShMs=308 total shouldn't be discounted either.
    If the US had decided to invade a Chinese carrier group arriving would have changed their minds...
    France & UK, having possessions in & around L. America, may also send their CV/Ns & AFs to intercept/confront the PLAN. The Brazilian, Chilean & other navies may join them. https://navaltoday.com/2018/08/14/panamax-2018-wraps-up/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ships_of_the_Brazilian_Navy

    https://navaltoday.com/2018/08/27/brazils-new-helicopter-carrier-arrives-home/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_ships_of_the_Chilean_Navy

    By the same token, I doubt China would risk a war over Cuba or Venezuela, esp. so close to the Panama Canal the US is always ready to defend & keep other muscle flexers away from.
    Unless China gets a base in the Western Hemisphere to forward deploy a CBG at (even then, it will be as vulnerable as bases in Yokosuka, Okinawa & Guam r to NK, RF & PRC), good will visits won't help- it'll take at least 3-4 weeks, if not more, for it to get (even if unopposed) from China or the Indian Ocean to Venezuela-by then, it could be infiltrated by guerillas, bombed &/ invaded by the US & its neighbors.
    Logistics & local supply problems were already solved with smaller ships passing through the region. The PLAN now has big supply ships & is building more; other ships could be sent & prepositioned ahead of time, if need be.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Mar 09, 2020 8:02 pm; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : add text, links)
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sun Apr 05, 2020 7:38 pm

    Anyone has a liste of chinese antiship/cruise missiles with caractestics?

    They seem to have hundreds of different missiles.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:23 pm

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_anti-ship_missiles#People's_Republic_of_China_(PRC)

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/c-602.htm

    https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/yj-18.htm

    https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/30058/lets-talk-about-this-previously-unseen-ground-launched-missile-that-china-just-leaked

    https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/china-army-rockets/
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:10 pm

    Thanks. Do you know which ones they mainly use ? Produce ?
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:50 am


    The USN may be assisted by some B-1B/B-2/21/52s in anti-ship roles:

    The B-1B and B-2 will likely be withdrawn from service as soon as they have enough B-21s, and so their fleet soon enough will be B-52s and B-21s... and they will focus on conventional strike and strategic missions... and even if they are used for naval strike missions all western anti ship missiles are subsonic sitting ducks... if China has copied Soviet air defence systems they should be fine...

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