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    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:52 pm

    Isos wrote:The general clearly says that there was hacking attempt and jaming. So they knew where they were.

    So they can track a british sub but not two ships ? Seriously ?

    No matter from where your picture is. It is a picture for domestic public with no more information than what french said. They lied when they said everything was fine during the operation while they had issues with launches. Why beleive a picture made by the same persons ?

    Fremm are good but not invisible. Unless they fired from 1000km they detected them.


    It doesn't say anything about their ships being jammed. The General talking about that is American and referring to the Syrian theatre of operations and his planes being jammed.

    They very well could track two ships, but they do have the RCS of a fishing trawler so it might not be easy to tell what they are at 03:00. If they launched they certainly would have known which is why only one well out of range did launch.

    It was published by the French MoD, believe it or not is not my concern but it is official.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:05 am

    Detected or not, the French, UK & US strikes didn't change much on the ground in Syria, to put it nicely. If they attempt larger strikes on PRC mainland/islands, their detection & tracking will be even easier.
    The Soviet & later Russian VMF subs & planes operated in the W. Pacific/SC Sea & the RF VMF may also send its subs there to assist the PLAN, gather intel., & for training against real potential enemies.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:41 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Detected or not, the French, UK & US strikes didn't change much on the ground in Syria, to put it nicely. If they attempt larger strikes on PRC mainland/islands, their detection & tracking will be even easier.
    The Soviet & later Russian VMF subs & planes operated in the W. Pacific/SC Sea & the RF VMF may also send its subs there to assist the PLAN, gather intel., & for training against real potential enemies.

    The goal was to stop Assad's alleged use of chemical weapons.  Did it work?  Did he ever use them?  I don't know.  

    We had A-50 AWACs up, S-400, multiple CAPs in the air, including the loss of an Su-30, every single warship and submarine was out of port.  I think what they would face against China is similar given the limited engagement area in Syria. China could bring more once they find them but you have to do your search grid first. The French would do stand-off with their carrier based aircraft so China would have to go far out to find them.
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    Post  Isos on Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:03 am

    It doesn't say anything about their ships being jammed

    In the article I posted, the french general clearly says there were jaming and hacking attempts and he is talking bout french forces during that night.

    The US general is another story.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Aug 06, 2018 1:20 am

    Russian OTHRs will detect & track French CSG as soon it leaves port:
    PLA Navy and Naval Air Force - Page 11 Voronezh-Radar-Coverage
    The Chinese OTHRs will pick it up:
    The over-the-horizon radar, which was installed in January 2017, has a range of about three-thousand kilometers, enabling it to detect not only South Korea and Japan but even the Western Pacific. That's far bigger than the coverage of THAAD's X-band Radar,.. which has a range of 600 to 800 kilometers. According to the Chinese media, the Tianbo radar can also detect U.S. F-35B stealth fighters deployed at the Iwakuni base in Japan. It can also monitor aircraft carriers and warships within its radius. ..China's sky-wave system radar system can detect U.S. aircraft and ships at a long distance from the coastline of the country. ..Sky wave over the [horizon] radar distance of 1000 to 4000 km. The effect of ground-wave over-the-horizon radar is short, but it can monitor the area that can not be covered by sky-wave over-the-horizon radar. The red area in the picture is the exploration area facing the East China Sea that can be covered by the combination of the skywave radar and the ground wave radar in China, and reaches the outer edge of the second island chain.
    China has deployed an Over-the-Horizon Backscatter Radar [OTH-B] to provide surveillance of the South China Sea. The precise location of this facility remained unclear. https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/oth-b.htm
    PLA Navy and Naval Air Force - Page 11 U=3263012692,2863892114&fm=170&s=78BA74D8D2B3827C12D066A70300F086&w=640&h=420&img
    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-IADS-Radars.html#mozTocId88569

    The radar emitters on Hainan facing the SC Sea would cover the entire area down to Indonesia & the Malacca strait. Facing Westward, most of the Bay of Bengal, part of India's E. Coast & the Andaman Sea will be covered.
    PLA Navy and Naval Air Force - Page 11 1727176_1468310680
    And from Yunnan another transmitter can partially overlap it & cover
    the rest of the Indian E. coast, Sri Lanka, & the Bay of Bengal.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yunnan#/media/File:Yunnan_in_China_(%2Ball_claims_hatched).svg

    PLA Navy and Naval Air Force - Page 11 589px-Bay_of_Bengal_map
    The French & the others will have to disable/destroy them all before being able to hit anything with their deck fighters & subs.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:57 am; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : add link, text)
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:06 am

    OTHR has the inherent problem of relying on bouncing off of the atmosphere to get a return.  It is best at detecting large planes flying above the clouds.  It is rather poor at detecting slow ships on the surface of the ocean.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:28 am

    Oh really? I've read on a Russian site that they observed training planes taking off in Holland. The type of aircraft can be deduced by the length of run & takeoff speed. Ships r a lot bigger than planes. Planes leaving a ship & returning to it exposes that it's a CVN. Space & other assets will be used too, so there's redundancy.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:34 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Oh really? I've read on a Russian site that they observed training planes taking off in Holland. The type of aircraft can be deduced by the length of run & takeoff speed. Ships r a lot bigger than planes. Planes leaving a ship & returning to it exposes that it's a CVN. Space & other assets will be used too, so there's redundancy.

    Yes really, detecting airbourne aircraft by OTH is far different than detecting objects on the surface of the water that is prone to being blocked by clouds and distorted by waves. The Australians are pioneering research in this area but it is experimental and far above anything China has deployed.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:58 am

    Holland is at sea level (some parts r even below it), & they detected those small training planes before leaving the ground. A CVN flight deck is a few dozen feet above the sea level, & its planes r larger & faster. How do u know that China's radars r blind to them, irrespective of what Australia has or doesn't have in this area now?
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:04 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Holland is at sea level (some parts r even below it), & they detected those small training planes before leaving the ground. A CVN flight deck is a few dozen feet above the sea level, & its planes r larger & faster. How do u know that China's radars r blind to them, irrespective of what Australia has or doesn't have in this area now?

    I have no idea what Holland event you are talking about. They cannot be detected until they are in the air. I know well Chinese OTHR is not as advanced as Australian who are the world leaders in this technology.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:23 am

    Here, "from the horse's mouth": https://leon-rumata.livejournal.com/731483.html

    From Hainan, 3,000 km radius covers an entire area between Guam, S.Sumatra & Sri Lanka.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:02 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Here, "from the horse's mouth": https://leon-rumata.livejournal.com/731483.html

    From Hainan, 3,000 km radius covers an entire area between Guam, S.Sumatra & Sri Lanka.

    I don't see anything in there about detecting training planes taking off from Holland, much less detecting them on the ground. China can monitor large aircraft if the conditions are good, ships it cannot.
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    Post  miketheterrible on Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:15 am

    This is what was said in article:

    He said Saprykin, the possibility of radar "Container" allows you to track even small aircraft. "I am sitting in Mordovia at the receiving position of such a station, watching the Dutch pilots learn to fly small sport aircraft", - he said.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:36 am

    [quote="miketheterrible"]This is what was said in article:

    He said Saprykin, the possibility of radar "Container" allows you to track even small aircraft. "I am sitting in Mordovia at the receiving position of such a station, watching the Dutch pilots learn to fly small sport aircraft", - he said.

    He hasn't even built the thing so how can he be doing that? He is talking about what it could do.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:53 pm

    He did build 1 as proof of concept, not yet in quantity for the military, or why say things out of the blue?
    In Russia, there will be a new network of over-the-horizon radar stations (ZGRLS) "Container" to detect aircraft at distances of up to 3000 km. The work on its deployment has already begun.
    The network of over-the-horizon radar will shortly cover the entire Russian territory with a radar field and will allow for reconnaissance of airspace beyond its borders, Interfax reports.
    ZGRLS "Container", developed by the scientific and production complex "Research Institute of Long-distance Radio Communication" (NPID "NIIDAR"). The general designer of the enterprise Sergey Saprykin told reporters: "This is a new generation of over-the-horizon stations, such radars can detect any aircraft, everything that moves.
    According to him, Saprykin, the possibilities of the "Container" radar make it possible to track even small aircraft. "I myself, sitting in Mordovia at the receiving position of such a station, watched the Dutch pilots learn to fly on small sports planes," he said. https://leon-rumata.livejournal.com/731483.html

    Even w/o OTHRs,
    There are other types of reconnaissance,.. With the help of ballistic missiles reconnaissance satellites are launched, which exist from 30 to 50 days. Small satellites work on a certain zone in search of the enemy fleet. http://warsonline.info/siriia/novosti/rossiia/kinjal050818-2.html
    https://spaceflightnow.com/2017/03/03/small-experimental-satellite-launched-by-new-chinese-rocket/

    Also,
    Enhancements to the H-6K continue; in late August, an amateur photo of a “green” H-6 with in-flight refueling probe surfaced on Weibo, the Chinese version of Twitter. This could be the alleged H-6N that reportedly flew for the first time in December. Many believe the H-6N could host the air-launched DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile. The reworked airframe could have been modified and strengthened to accommodate the 11-meter missile and better shielded against radiation.
    Analyst Wei Dongxu thinks inflight refueling capability will enable the PLAAF’s bombers to operate beyond the “First Island Chain” to the “Second Island Chain” with greater payload. The PLAAF has increased the number of H-6K flights into Japan’s and Taiwan’s Air Defense Identification Zones, in some cases with a composite force of Y-8 transport aircraft, Su-30 fighters and KJ-2000 airborne early warning aircraft.
    XAC has also developed the H-6KH, an enhanced variant of the H-6K, which features two additional wing pylons for KG600/800 jamming pods. Satellite imagery of the XAC airfield in Yanliang, China, shows an H-6KH with unidentified pods on the new outerwing pylons. A model of the H-6KH also suggests the presence of a KD-63 series targeting and datalink pod mounted on the aft of bomb bay.
    A small-scale test model of China’s next generation bomber, a flying wing unofficially dubbed the H-20, has been spotted by satellite at Gaobeidian, a radar cross-section test range near Beijing. China state media CCTV estimates the H-20 will have stealth features, a maximum takeoff weight of at least 200 tons and payload capacity of up to 45 tons.
    The H-20 resembles the U.S. Air Force’s B-2 Spirit bomber and the Northrop Grumman X-47B unmanned combat air vehicle demonstrator. However, military analyst Wang Mingliang told CCTV that the H-20 cannot be compared with the B-2 as it will perform missions beyond strategic bombing, such as electronic warfare.
    https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2017-08-29/china-modernizes-bomber-fleet-looks-future-h-20#

    Electronic lasso for Tomahawks
    http://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2018-08-03/12_1007_lasso.html?print=Y

    China may employ a similar method vs. Taiwanese CMs
    http://www.atimes.com/article/taiwanese-missiles-targeting-chinese-airports-operational/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=efaf39c8c8-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_06_01_46&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-efaf39c8c8-31607385

    Taiwan embarks on spending spree on homemade subs
    http://www.atimes.com/article/taiwan-embarks-on-spending-spree-on-homemade-subs/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=5235c41dc6-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_08_01_38&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-5235c41dc6-31607385

    Also PRC just tested hypersonic maneuverable aircraft:
    https://qz.com/1350327/china-tested-a-hypersonic-weapon-the-us-cant-defend-against/

    In other developments:
    China is constructing its second overseas military base in Pakistan, at Jiwani on the Gulf of Oman, which is much closer to the Strait of Hormuz than Gwadar; the crow-flight distance between Jiwani and Chabahar port in Iran is just 35 kilometers,..
    The Chinese troop presence at Jiwani and Gwadar in conjunction with the Pakistani ports of Pasni, Omara and Karachi (all connected by road to the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor) will not only provide control of the entire Pakistani coast to China, the continuum will carry on to Africa. With an existing airstrip, Jiwani, which is being showcased as joint China-Pakistan naval and airbase, could become China’s Eastern Indian Ocean Regional Command, with China’s Western Indian Ocean Regional Command at Djibouti. ..
    During the visit by China’s defense minister at the time, Liang Guanglie, to Seychelles in 2011, Seychelles offered China a port to supply ships fighting piracy, which evoked a Chinese response that it would consider seeking supply facilities at appropriate harbors in Seychelles or other countries.
    Island nations of the Indian Ocean have been in special focus of China. ..
    Xi visited Maldives in September 2014, securing Maldivian support for China’s “21st-Century Maritime Silk Road.” ..there are reports Maldives was looking to let the Chinese build a port at Gaadhoo Island in the south of the archipelago in April 2016, where people had been moved out and Chinese were building roads. ..
    ..China is looking to establish a joint Ocean Observation Station at Makunudhoo, the westernmost atoll in the northern Maldives in proximity of India. There is speculation that the facility will have military applications with provision of even a military base.
    Hambantota, Gaadhoo, Makunudhoo, Gwadar, Jiwani in conjunction Chinese port development activities in Bangladesh, Myanmar, Thailand and other parts of the IOR form a strategic matrix that indicates SCS 2.0 is under way. It should be of serious concern to the world.
    http://www.atimes.com/chinas-base-in-sri-lanka-part-of-its-dominant-indian-ocean-presence/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=efaf39c8c8-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_06_01_46&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-efaf39c8c8-31607385


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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Aug 06, 2018 5:54 pm

    Philippine, Russian navies consider submarine agreement
    https://www.janes.com/article/82217/philippine-russian-navies-consider-submarine-agreement

    If/when they buy them, RF will have more interests & excuses for presence in the SC Sea. Their bases access already been discussed.

    'Leave immediately': USN plane warned over South China Sea
    https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/10/politics/south-china-sea-flyover-intl/index.html

    US looks to loosen China’s grip on SE Asia
    http://www.atimes.com/article/us-looks-to-loosen-chinas-grip-on-se-asia/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=2e1efc6676-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_10_01_17&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-2e1efc6676-31607385


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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Aug 10, 2018 11:43 pm

    Microsatellites - killers of hypersonic & CMs
    http://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2018-08-10/1_1008_miracle.html?print=Y

    The PRC won't even need to threaten attacking the French Polynesia to defend itself from French CMs; retaliation may take many forms & could be done with IC/SLBMs.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:25 am

    PLAN hones anti-missile capabilities
    http://www.atimes.com/article/pla-navy-hones-anti-missile-capabilities-chinese-paper/?utm_source=The%20Daily%20Report&utm_campaign=a9d939f599-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_13_01_32&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-a9d939f599-31607385

    Makes sense, ships can “extend air defense from inland to littorals and open sea for greater guarantee of national security.”
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:54 pm

    New jet trainers to prepare pilots for PLAN’s new carrier
    The L-15 features a streamlined aerodynamic design and integrated avionics, with a maximum speed of 1,200km/h as well as a maximum flight range of 2,600 kilometers. Its development was reportedly assisted by Russia’s Yakovlev Design Bureau and the jets are propelled by Ukrainian-made afterburning turbofan engines.
    http://www.atimes.com/article/new-jet-trainers-to-prepare-pilots-for-plans-new-carrier/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=c471ae694f-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_15_01_12&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-c471ae694f-31607385
    If the J-15s r grounded, L-15s may be used instead.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:48 pm

    Taiwan is key to US power in Pacific
    Sixth-century Chinese military strategist Sun Tzu wrote that “to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting.” Sun Tzu, skeptical about prolonged warfare, favored swift, decisive action; he preferred deception and psychological warfare to subduing an enemy by force.
    Contemporary Chinese rulers sometimes breathe the same strategic air as their distinguished forebear. The Peoples’ Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) has dispatched warships into the Taiwan Strait and conducted live-fire drills. On more than one occasion, its Xian H-6 bombers have circumnavigated Taiwan; in early summer, a Chinese destroyer and frigate repeated that circumnavigation by sea. And Beijing has not renounced the use of force to seize Taiwan.
    A Chinese military analyst and TV personality told one of Beijing’s state-run media outlets that it is “legitimate” for China “to send strong signals like this,” and that it must be able to deal not only with Taiwan’s military but potential U.S. and Japanese intervention.
    http://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/402286-Taiwan-is-key-to-US-power-in-Pacific
    The rest of the article is typical American hubris not even worth commenting on. China won't tolerate this unsinkable a/c carrier called ROC just off the coast blocking her access to open W. Pacific. Recall the Cuban Missile Crisis & its aftermath. History can be a good teacher, but only for good students.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:15 pm

    In December 2017, Beijing and Male signed a protocol to build a joint ocean observation station in Maldives, which China insists will not become a military base. But with the Chinese navy now present in the Indian Ocean, and a pro-Beijing man in power in Maldives, the Indians and other Indian Ocean powers are deeply concerned about the implications of recent developments. http://www.atimes.com/article/maldives-presidents-pro-china-stance-making-waves/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=c0878275d7-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_22_12_16&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-c0878275d7-31607385
    Even a civilian station can have military personnel monitoring all navigation & collecting intel, besides guarding it. India is right to be worried! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maldives
    https://www.britannica.com/place/Maldives
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:43 pm

    China’s homemade carrier undergoes second sea trial
    https://atimes.us14.list-manage.com/track/click?u=2049a8663daea00bd30c32cf2&id=c2f6804219&e=5455568640

    A 3rd & maybe 4th will follow it.
    China markets ships to navies in SE Asia and Africa
    http://www.atimes.com/article/china-markets-ships-to-navies-in-se-asia-and-africa/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=a673be16fc-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_27_11_45&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-a673be16fc-31607385

    They can do it as the PLAN has enough of those classes already.

    Belt and Road construction brings no debt trap for relevant countries: Chinese official
    http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2018-08/28/c_137423467.htm

    Now, is there a way to verify this statement, & how accurate is it?


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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:52 pm

    Made in China: the first missile cruiser went to sea
    Taking into account the development trends of the PLA Navy, it can be assumed that the 055 ships are considered in two main qualities - as the basis for an escort for prospective Chinese aircraft carriers, and also as the nucleus of independent strike groups operating in conjunction with an aircraft carrier connection or in isolation from it both in a peaceful way and in time of war. ..
    Presumably, the PRC intends to build eight ships of the 055 project. Combined with 21 destroyers of projects 052B / C / D and a large fleet of frigates and corvettes that will eventually approach a hundred units, this will make it possible to form the largest naval fleet in Asia, second only to the US Navy. At the same time, given the global ambitions of the United States and the need to keep a significant part of the Navy in other regions of the world, China can get superiority in forces in its "own" theater - in the western part of the Pacific Ocean.
    This superiority in case of any possible local conflict in the region will put the US before a choice - either to accept the very likely defeat of its allies, or to be drawn into a large-scale conflict fraught with a full-fledged war.
    Among the immediate opponents of China in the Pacific Ocean, in addition to the United States, can be identified the Navy of Japan, South Korea and Australia. However, at present, the Chinese Navy is already surpassing the fleets of all three countries combined in terms of the number of ships, as well as in the variety and technical characteristics of weapons. And, in fact, without American support, these countries, possessing quite serious by the standards of the second echelon states by the armed forces, can not oppose anything to the Chinese naval potential.
    In the Indian Ocean, the main contender of the PLA is the naval forces of India, and if 10 years ago, experts in the correspondence comparison unconditionally put the Indian fleet in first place in comparison with the Chinese, now the answer is profoundly unreasonable. China already surpasses India in the number of main class warships, and with the completion of the construction of destroyers of the 052D project, 052 cruisers and the second aircraft carrier will receive a significant qualitative superiority. The probability of a direct military conflict between India and China is not very high today, including thanks to the diplomatic steps of both countries towards each other, but it is clear that China's growing naval capabilities are seriously reinforcing Chinese diplomacy.
    According to some experts, the People's Republic of China can move to the construction of even larger missile ships that are already in line with the Russian nuclear cruisers of Project 1144. In any case, given Beijing's thorough construction of the fleet and the consistent development of the projects of warships from simple to complex, this task seems quite solvable for the second half of the 2020s.
    https://iz.ru/782763/ilia-kramnik/sdelano-v-kitae-pervyi-raketnyi-kreiser-vyshel-v-more

    Add the Pakistan Navy on the side of PRC & it's easier to pity Indian admirals!
    Tsavo Lion
    Tsavo Lion

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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:12 pm

    PLA’s version of Black Hawk to fly to Tibet, land on carriers
    http://www.atimes.com/article/plas-version-of-black-hawk-to-fly-to-tibet-land-on-carriers/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=dc02e29a5d-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_30_12_33&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-dc02e29a5d-31607385

    The American UH-60s has many applications:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikorsky_UH-60_Black_Hawk#Variants

    I guess they don't want to import more KA-27/32s.

    PRC: the success of the sea trials of its 2nd CV
    https://regnum.ru/news/it/2473027.html
    GarryB
    GarryB

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    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:59 am


    Add the Pakistan Navy on the side of PRC & it's easier to pity Indian admirals!

    I am sure the US would encourage any such conflict because no matter the result... it would seriously damage two potential rivals to world domination... but despite Americas wishes I doubt anything would come from it... the Indians are not stupid and the Chinese are actually rather sensible too.

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