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    PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Vladimir79 on Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:49 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:
    The J-20 &/ S-400/500 SAMs r going to take them out.
    SSBNs don't need to leave the vicinity of their base on Hainan to strike the French islands, JL-2 range is sufficient (see the links I posted).
    The Chinese r good at hiding their deficiencies & capabilities. But just not knowing what they really have for sure doesn't mean that what we know they do have is all they really have.
    In their martial arts, a fighter would always have a hidden secret weapon &/ skill/strategy/technique to be used at the right moment should all the other means used up to that point fail. The same thing is with their military. It's in line with the Sun Tzu's The Art of War.
    The French r so smart, but they lost at Tiem Ban Phu after the Vietnamese unexpectedly put their cannons on mountaintops.

    The J-20 is nothing as of now and according to Russian analysis will be nothing in the future. The French have shown the ability to avoid detection by S-400 during the raid in Syria. If China launches a JL-2 at a French possession France will nuke China back to the stone age if the US doesn't do it first.

    It actually doesn't benefit you to hide your capabilities when you are trying to project an appearance of power to get what you want by intimidation. It does benefit you to be a paper tiger.

    The CCP did away with Sun Tzu and Confucius teachings long ago. They burned those books as well as the rest of their cultural history.

    I think France lost 20,000 nationals during the Indochine war over the course of a decade, China lost more than that in a few months. Just remember to compare the same thing.
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    Isos

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Isos on Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:29 pm

    If China launches a JL-2 at a French possession France will nuke China back to the stone age if the US doesn't do it first.

    They have a special BM against carriers. Launching many of them should allow at least one hit against any carrier. At least one will do a mission kill. It's not because chinese technology is inferior than western that it is useless.

    Using a nuclear missile against an island you want to take is just stupid and puting a conventional warehead is useless as garry said the precision is very bad.

    Many analysts compare chinese nuclear arsenal to france UK and israel. I would compare it to US and Russia. They have invested a lot of money in many design and they also successfully tested hypersonic missiles.

    The thousands of factories producing basically everything for all the world in China could build million of missiles per month if they convert them.

    US would never do a nuclear war with china for a french carrier or island full of poor people. The scenario here is the french carrier attacking chinese for some islands. I would add the exemple of soviets asking them to nuk china after the border clashes but it seems to be US stupid propaganda.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:15 am

    Isos wrote:

    They have a special BM against carriers. Launching many of them should allow at least one hit against any carrier. At least one will do a mission kill. It's not because chinese technology is inferior than western that it is useless.

    As we discussed before, there has been no testing of it on a static target on water much less a moving a target on water much less a moving target in a cluttered environment on water.  Such things must be tested befor a weapon achieves operational capability.  Hitting a parking lot in a desert doesn't qualify.

    Using a nuclear missile against an island you want to take is just stupid and puting a conventional warehead is useless as garry said the precision is very bad.

    On this we agree.

    Many analysts compare chinese nuclear arsenal to france UK and israel. I would compare it to US and Russia. They have invested a lot of money in many design and they also successfully tested hypersonic missiles.

    China has invested heavily in SRBM and MRBMs but not much into the ICBM category. Of course no one wants to risk them using it but the US could easily wipe out China with only a few cities destroyed in the process.  It is not like going to war with us where the entire world is destroyed 10X over again.

    The thousands of factories producing basically everything for all the world in China could build million of missiles per month if they convert them.

    There are many things China could spend its resources on but doesn't, the economy is more important to the social order than missiles.  

    US would never do a nuclear war with china for a french carrier or island full of poor people. The scenario here is the french carrier attacking chinese for some islands. I would add the exemple of soviets asking them to nuk china after the border clashes but it seems to be US stupid propaganda.

    The US might not start a nuclear war over a French carrier but the French certainly would.  With enough nukes to depopulate the coastal zones of China they might think twice about tossing ICBMs at them.  De Gaulle demanded France maintain an independent nuclear deterrent so they could never be pushed around again.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:16 am

    If China launches a JL-2 at a French possession France will nuke China back to the stone age if the US doesn't do it first.
    It actually doesn't benefit you to hide your capabilities when you are trying to project an appearance of power to get what you want by intimidation. It does benefit you to be a paper tiger.
    The CCP did away with Sun Tzu and Confucius teachings long ago. They burned those books as well as the rest of their cultural history.
    Using non-nuclear BMs in S. Pacific is not the same as striking France in Europe. I don't think Paris & Lyon r worth all those islands; for if France &/ US nuke China, the PLA will have the means to retaliate in kind.  
    China likes to use "soft power"; brandishing weapons & needlessly provoking others isn't in their Confucian influenced culture:
    “When one by force subdues men, they do not submit to him in heart” said Mencius, one of the great Confucian thinkers. “When one subdues men by virtue, in their hearts’ core they are pleased, and sincerely submit."
    China had the military and economic power to force its neighbors to kowtow, of course. But for the most part, the emperors showed restraint. From the founding of the Ming Dynasty in 1368 to the first Opium War of the 1840s, China invaded an East Asian state only once (an ultimately disastrous 15th-century push into Vietnam), notes David Kang, author of “East Asia Before the West.” In response, the other East Asian countries generally accepted Chinese hegemony; Japan’s ill-fated invasion of Korea in the 1590s was the only overt attempt to challenge Chinese supremacy in that entire period. ..Emperors often bestowed gifts on foreign embassies worth more to their vassals than the tributes they received. Occasionally, they made concessions when they didn’t have to. In 1725, when Vietnam moved part of its border about 40 miles north into Chinese territory to claim copper mines, the Qing emperor decided to compromise, leaving a majority of the land in Vietnamese hands.
    https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-07-21/xi-needs-a-confucian-foreign-policy
    China's Revival of Confucianism
    https://china.usc.edu/chinas-revival-confucianism

    China's new-found love for Confucius
    https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2017/03/china-love-confucius-170328144603740.html

    Confucianism in China Today
    https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Writings/Confucianism%20Today.pdf

    Xi Jinping endorses the promotion of Confucius
    https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1603487/xi-jinping-endorses-promotion-confucius
    For the government, the promotion of Confucian values has several advantages. Domestically, the affirmation of harmony is meant to reflect the ruling party's concern for all classes. Threatened by rural discontent - according to official figures, there were 87,000 illegal disturbances last year - the government realizes that it needs to do more for those bearing the brunt of China's development. Internationally, the call for peace and harmony is meant to disarm fears about China's rapid rise. ..Confucians favor rule by moral example and oppose the use of force to promote morality. Hence, Confucian intellectuals were severely critical of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. But here, too, interpretations of Confucianism may diverge from official ones. The idea that Taiwan should be reintegrated into the mainland by being threatened with invasion and bloodshed is far removed from Confucian ideals. https://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/14/opinion/14iht-edbell.2807200.html
    Even though Mao's Cultural Revolution changed them, the Dao is still followed- otherwise they wouldn't have been replacing the top leaders every 10 years since Deng.
    The government of President Xi Jinping has been promoting traditional Chinese culture and religions. And you see that he has officially, sort of, endorsed Confucianism and has said nice things about Buddhism, and Daoism also as a traditional Chinese religion is more favored. More money is flowing to temples. It’s easier to get permits to build. It’s really on the upswing in China. ..
    A lot of people, especially after 35 years of growing prosperity, are interested in wellness and taking care of their health and their body. And these practices, which in Chinese are called yang-sheng, these are primarily Daoist. So, Daoist temples are offering courses in wellness, health, nutrition, meditation, tai chi, and things like that. So, I really think Daoism is slowly finding a foothold in modern China. https://www.pri.org/stories/2015-01-30/daoism-gains-foothold-again-china
    I visited the PRC back in 2002 & can assure u that it's true.


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:36 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote:

    Using non-nuclear BMs in S. Pacific is not the same as striking France in Europe. I don't think Paris & Lyon r worth all those islands; for if France &/ US nuke China, the PLA will have the means to retaliate in kind.  

    China likes to use "soft power"; brandishing weapons & needlessly provoking others isn't in their Confucian influenced culture:


    Even though Mao's Cultural Revolution changed them, the Dao is still followed- otherwise they wouldn't have been replacing the top leaders every 10 years since Deng.

    I visited the PRC back in 2002 & can assure u that it's true.

    The French won't know that the ICBMs being launched are not nuclear and they won't wait for them to hit to launch a counter attack.  All of China's Tier 1 and Tier 2 cities will be engulfed in fireballs within 30 minutes.  If anyone is going to mess with France they won't be using anything that could even appear like a nuclear attack.  

    Considering China hasn't used hard power since 1979, I agree with that but it isn't based on Confucious, it is based on Deng Xiaoping's Gaige Kaifang.

    If you watch little kids getting run over in the street and no one helps you see how much the Dao is still followed.  The Chinese have lost their souls.  

    I have been to the PRC a dozen times, I would walk by a guy laying dead on the sidewalk and people are just stepping over him like he isn't even there.  These people are morally absent and only driven by greed.  It is no society anyone should emulate.
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    Isos

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Isos on Tue Jul 31, 2018 12:47 am

    The US might not start a nuclear war over a French carrier but the French certainly would. With enough nukes to depopulate the coastal zones of China they might think twice about tossing ICBMs at them. De Gaulle demanded France maintain an independent nuclear deterrent so they could never be pushed around again.

    Actually it is kinda a weak nuclear detterent. Almost all the nuclear countries have the nuclear triade (air, sub and ground launched nuks) while france is almost only using them in 4 SSBN with one or two at sea in the same time the rest being at port. Find the one at sea and launched missiles at the others in the port at the same time and they are left with handfull of small range ASMP.

    USA and russia would never let them do a massive attack on China and risk the end of the world. IMO they would target nuclear capacities of the both countries. More likely than seeing US start a nuclear war over Tahiti or CdG.

    As we discussed before, there has been no testing of it on a static target on water much less a moving a target on water much less a moving target in a cluttered environment on water. Such things must be tested befor a weapon achieves operational capability. Hitting a parking lot in a desert doesn't qualify.

    If they made them specially for use against carriers and if in the tests it worked even if they are not completly tested, with a barrage of 200 or 300 missiles one of them should touch the carrier. Iskander has a TV seaker and was never tested against carriers but it could be launched at it during a good day without clouds.

    There are many things China could spend its resources on but doesn't, the economy is more important to the social order than missiles.

    I was just pointed out the power of their economy.

    China has invested heavily in SRBM and MRBMs but not much into the ICBM category. Of course no one wants to risk them using it but the US could easily wipe out China with only a few cities destroyed in the process. It is not like going to war with us where the entire world is destroyed 10X over again.

    "Easily" if we don't take into account the consequences of such attack. They didn't want to test North Korea with it scud copies let alone China.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Tue Jul 31, 2018 7:33 pm

    Absolutely! Some1 deleted my last post w/o any explanation! Abuse complaint has been submitted.
    Sun Tzu and the art of soft power
    https://www.economist.com/christmas-specials/2011/12/17/sun-tzu-and-the-art-of-soft-power

    Sun Tzu in Contemporary Chinese Strategy
    http://ndupress.ndu.edu/Media/News/Article/577507/sun-tzu-in-contemporary-chinese-strategy/

    Deception Is the Chinese Way of War
    https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2017-02/deception-chinese-way-war

    Does Sun Tzu's The Art of War influence China's
    military behavior? A case study of the 1962 Sino-India War

    https://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4709&context=etd

    For China, hacking may be all about Sun Tzu and WW III  https://www.zdnet.com/article/for-china-hacking-may-be-all-about-sun-tzu-and-world-war-iii/

    Is America Prepared to Battle China in an Asymmetric War?
    https://nationalinterest.org/feature/america-prepared-battle-china-asymmetric-war-23260

    Sun Tzu Explains China's Shaping Operations in the SC Sea
    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/sun-tzu-explains-chinas-shaping-operations-the-south-china-18257

    Conventional strikes BM or threats of them on the French S. Pacific islands may be all that's needed to prevent/retaliate against the FN offencive ops in the SC Sea:
    Sun Tzu, Nuclear Weapons and China's Grand Strategy
    ..if any country or organization violates the other country's sovereignty and territorial integrity, the other side will have the right to 'fire the first shot' on the plane of tactics. The military counterattacks may be taken by the following options: to drive the invaders out of the territory; or to launch the same attacks on the enemy's homeland; or to attack the enemy's foreign military bases, targets at sea or in the air. ..Once the enemy invades our territory and offends our national interests, it means that the enemy has already fired the first shot strategically and crossed the border of our strategic defense. Then, we get the freedom to conduct self-defense operations. As long as the battlefield is concerned, we should not passively fight against the enemy in our border regions, coastal regions and related air space. On the contrary, after the launching of the war, we should try our best to fight against the enemy as far away as possible, to lead the war to enemy's operational base, even to his source of war, and to actively strike all the effective strength forming the enemy's war system...The authors of The Science of Military Strategy quoted Sun Tzu in summing up the essence of their strategy: '"For enhancing the credibility of deterrence, one should have a well-defined objective in mind and "attack what the enemy is bound to save."' http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/nps/rickard_chin_grand_strat_jul08.pdf

    China launches first stretched Type 052D destroyer
    The Type 052D’s increase in size is likely to be in preparation for a navalised version of the Harbin Z-20 helicopter being introduced into service.
    https://www.janes.com/article/82100/china-launches-first-stretched-type-052d-destroyer

    For the People's Liberation Army Navy (PLAN), it could fill the role of a multi-role naval helicopter small enough to be interoperable across all PLAN vessels while still being able to have a full suite of anti-submarine warfare (ASW) capabilities installed, something the current Ka-28 and Changhe Z-8/Changhe Z-18 cannot do.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harbin_Z-20


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:00 am

    The J-20 is nothing as of now and according to Russian analysis will be nothing in the future.

    While old Chinese classics r being reprinted & studied in PRC, the Western J-20 analysis says quite different things:
    Long Range Air Combat and Escort Fighter: in this role the J-XX [J-20] would be employed offensively, to punch holes through opposing air defences by engaging and destroying defending fighter Combat Air Patrols, AWACS/AEW&C aircraft, and supporting aerial refuelling tankers;.. http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-NOTAM-090111-1.html

    It is worth noting, that if J-20 is a capable air superiority fighter, it would also be capable of performing the interceptor role and acting as a striker as well, which dramatically broadens its utility in potential conflict scenarios if the aircraft were merely an interceptor or striker. https://plarealtalk.com/j-20-striker-or-interceptor-17223c86edd0

    https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/chinas-j20-stealth-fighter-designer-promises-his-aircraft-will-be-a-battlefield-trump-card/news-story/88a65a9e151f26825eb472a6fad753d3
    The French have shown the ability to avoid detection by S-400 during the raid in Syria.
    On S-400s, "the jury is still out":
    https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-s-400-air-defense-system-super-weapon-or-overhyped-20111

    https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/russia-capable-of-stopping-a-tomahawk-missile/news-story/d0d8b15f92b76bac0ff81c1408a252d5

    Perhaps there just weren't enough S-400s to shoot down all of the CMs. The SC Sea & Chinese coast r not Syria- they'll have layered/ overlapping radar coverage zones, several AWACS/EW planes, & a lot more S-300/400s &/ their Chinese counterparts, land & ship based, + interceptors to defend against any LACMs coming at them.
    Make no mistake: France will bite a lot more that it can chew there!
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    Isos

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Isos on Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:11 am

    https://mobile.twitter.com/nukestrat/status/1024266354474602501?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1024266354474602501&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ffr.sputniknews.com%2Fdefense%2F201808021037483549-chine-missile-aerobalistique-essai%2F

    F*ck, the last pic in the tweet shows a HUGE missile under the H-6 bomber. If true it is a big threat to US.


    Rumor that China has conducted a test launch of an air-launched anti-ship ballistic missile from a modified H-6K intermediate-range bomber. The anti-ship version would presumably be conventional; another ALBM possible has nuclear option.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:19 am

    Isos wrote:F*ck, the last pic in the tweet shows a HUGE missile under the H-6 bomber. If true it is a big threat to US.
    I was expecting this, after Kinzhal was tested on MiG-31.
    It won't be a threat to US or any1 unless they come uninvited & stick their nose in PRC's backyard. As the Chinese saying goes: "don't tie ur shoelaces in watermelon patch, lest u get accused of theft!"
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:35 am

    False concepts. First off, No cruise missiles at flew over Russian base. Video and photos or it's all fake news. Second, S-400 isn't aimed for cruise missiles tbh. That job is for smaller systems like Pantsir. S-400 is more aimed at high/med altitude engagements. S-400 wouldn't really be able to strike a cruise missiles unless it was about ~20km from the base. Only option would be to have A-50 flying up at same time to guide the AD missiles to the cruise missiles.

    And no, Scalp wasn't fully successful. Major parts intact we're handed over from Syria to Russia. Which Russia showed in pictures.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:10 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:False concepts. First off, No cruise missiles at flew over Russian base. Video and photos or it's all fake news. Second, S-400 isn't aimed for cruise missiles tbh. That job is for smaller systems like Pantsir. S-400 is more aimed at high/med altitude engagements. S-400 wouldn't really be able to strike a cruise missiles unless it was about ~20km from the base. Only option would be to have A-50 flying up at same time to guide the AD missiles to the cruise missiles.

    And no, Scalp wasn't fully successful. Major parts intact we're handed over from Syria to Russia. Which Russia showed in pictures.



    According to this infographic they flew right over our AD zones. We said we never saw them and the briefing shows the targets destroyed. Whether you believe it or not is not something that can be debated with anyone but yourself. It is like getting a mosquito bite and never seeing the mosquito... just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there. The welt the bite left was and there were Syrian reports of casualties at the French strike zone.

    Earlier, a local security source told Sputnik that at least 6 civilians have been injured as a result of a missile strike on a military depot to the west of Homs.

    https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201804141063542578-civilians-injured-syria-us-strike/
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:58 pm

    IMO, Russia doesn't want to antagonize France too much- as independent players, the French may become more useful if they don't always toe the US/NATO line against the RF in Europe. Their strikes in Syria was a token way to show their relevance in the ME & to US as an ally. If Russia retaliated, France would be more equated to USA. So, there's "big politics" involved. Also, they may hoped to get some missiles intact, & they got them!
    Meanwhile, China is willing to team with Assad in push to retake territory
    http://www.atimes.com/article/china-says-willing-to-team-with-syrias-assad-in-push-to-retake-territory/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=9233f32230-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_03_01_46&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-9233f32230-31607385

    Of course he is denying that their SOF & advisers r there. They want to gain some combat experience & kill/capture their enemies before they get back to PRC.
    Also, The New Silk Road will go through Syriahttp://www.atimes.com/article/new-silk-road-will-go-syria/
    https://thediplomat.com/2017/11/why-china-wants-syria-in-its-new-belt-and-road/

    China confirms airborne early warning to rival US
    https://sofrep.com/98602/china-confirms-airborne-early-warning-to-rival-us/

    PLA’s new early warning plane to fly higher, see further
    http://www.atimes.com/article/plas-new-early-warning-plane-to-fly-higher-see-further/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=5257889c51-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_02_01_48&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-5257889c51-31607385

    New Chinese plane linked to future aircraft carrier: experts
    http://www.ecns.cn/news/military/2018-08-02/detail-ifywsspt3616492.shtml

    Could Okinawa referendum on US base ignite independence debate?http://www.atimes.com/article/could-okinawa-referendum-on-us-base-ignite-independence-debate/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=5257889c51-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_02_01_48&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-5257889c51-31607385

    China could also support Corsican separatists, should France cause any trouble in & around SC Sea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsican_nationalism
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Liberation_Front_of_Corsica
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Aug 03, 2018 11:49 pm

    China is a long way from EM catapults to be launching AEW, they don't even have an operational fighter.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:08 am

    The J-15 has problems but it's still operational, even if with limits.
    The U.S. mounted a significant challenge to China’s air defenses in the region over the last year when it began deploying F-35s to bases in Japan. The KJ-600 appears to be China’s answer to that challenge.
    Sources say the KJ-600 would be fitted with an advanced Active Electronically Scanned Array, or AESA, radar which could enable it to spot stealth aircraft such as U.S. F-22s and F-35s. The AESA is housed in a radome on top of the fuselage and can detect stealth signatures at long range. ..
    This aircraft would serve alongside J-15 T fighters and help fill a critical weapons gap with the U.S., improving the overall combat effectiveness of Chinese carrier battle groups.
    Some experts contend the KJ-600 could also serve in a command and control capacity from the air, something new for Chinese forces. The PLA has only improved its overall interoperability in recent years and has been working diligently to model the U.S. in this area. Its blue water navy capabilities are still extremely new and its ground forces have little to no real world experience. ..
    Military analysts say photographs of the KJ-600 suggest it is very similar to the E-2 Hawkeye, the U.S. all-weather, carrier-capable tactical airborne early-warning aircraft.
    Currently, China’s aircraft carrier combat group is restricted to shipboard surveillance radars, which have a limited range because of the Earth’s curvature. The advantage the KJ-600 may provide is an ability to monitor a wider range of signals and even detect stealth fighters at greater angles.
    The implication of this new development is that China is planning to field its carrier fleet farther from home. A carrier group designed to operate closer to home waters would rely on shore-based early warning support. A People’s Liberation Army Navy carrier battle group designed for distant sea operations requires a more comprehensive early-warning umbrella. The KJ-600 gives them just that. https://sofrep.com/98602/china-confirms-airborne-early-warning-to-rival-us/
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:16 am

    They have lost four of two dozen aircraft, that is hardly operational. I doubt it will ever fly again which is why they are pressing on with its immediate replacement. The two carriers they have now would be best served as ASW and heli assault platforms in the event they go to war over Taiwan. Without a well dock they are less useful than a Mistral which is a fraction of the price.
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    Tsavo Lion

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Tsavo Lion on Sat Aug 04, 2018 12:30 am

    Russia also lost 2 jets off Syria + some MiG-31s & TU-22M/95s/160 in recent years, does it make all of them not operational?
    Their pilots r still inexperienced; "immediate replacement" is wishful thinking & is not in the cards anytime soon.
    I doubt they'll attack Taiwan before having at least 3 fully capable CVs with airwings, to help them outflank it in the air & at sea. By then, the island may rejoin PRC on its own accord, for its own good.
    Australia charts its own South China Sea course
    http://www.atimes.com/article/australia-charts-its-own-south-china-sea-course/?utm_source=The+Daily+Report&utm_campaign=5257889c51-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_02_01_48&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1f8bca137f-5257889c51-31607385

    They have more to lose by antagonizing PRC than sticking their neck out for the UK & US.
    The Scary Way Russia or China Could 'Shoot Down' the USAF
    With a combination of reduced radar cross-section and high supersonic speed—armed with internally carried PL-15 missiles—it is possible that the J-20 could be used to threaten U.S. Air Force tankers and ISR assets in the Pacific theatre. As pointed out in the 2008 RAND study—Chinese derivatives of the Su-27 Flanker all but annihilated U.S. tanker, ISR, maritime patrol and command and control aircraft during a simulation using long-range air-to-air missiles. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/scary-way-russia-or-china-could-shoot-down-air-force-27557
    As the PL-15 moves to deployment stage, it will equip Chinese stealth fighter jets, such as the J-20 and J-31, as well as the older J-10, J-11, J-15 and J-16 fighters. https://www.popsci.com/chinese-air-to-air-missile-hits-targets-spooks-usaf-general#page-4

    And then there is this new PLA branch- Strategic Support Force:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Liberation_Army_Strategic_Support_Force

    The idea behind the SSF is part of what the Pentagon calls anti-access, area-denial warfare – the backing of military forces designed specifically to attack foreign forces (and especially US forces) close to Chinese shores and territory.
    The commission concludes that the SSF will enhance Chinese military capabilities designed to confront the US military in the Indo-Pacific in the coming year. ..“Whether it is the launching of synthetic aperture radar and hyper spectral satellites to increase its situational awareness in the maritime domain, or the integration of cyber teams within its combined arms combat structure at the theater command levels, the PLA’s combat effectiveness and lethality continues to be advanced on a daily basis by this new force.
    http://www.atimes.com/plas-new-strategic-support-force-remains-enigma/
     
    https://jamestown.org/program/the-strategic-support-force-chinas-information-warfare-service/

    https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR2058.html


    Last edited by Tsavo Lion on Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:31 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : add links, text)
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    George1

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  George1 on Sun Aug 05, 2018 10:32 am

    The ceremony of the transfer of 12 JL-10 combat training aircraft to the PLA Navy





    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3294203.html

    *JL-10 name was given to L-15 combat training aircraft for the PLA itself after they were adopted for service.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:07 pm

    Tsavo Lion wrote:Russia also lost 2 jets off Syria + some MiG-31s & TU-22M/95s/160 in recent years, does it make all of them not operational?

    Two lose two units of a CAG in one deployment takes it out of operation so yes, it is not operational. The moment they lost the second aircraft they immediately went home to find out what is wrong. If the losses continue it will be taken out of service permanently. Trying to compare fighters that have hundreds of units operating for decades cannot be compared to something of two dozen units and only a few years of operation.

    I doubt they'll attack Taiwan before having at least 3 fully capable CVs with airwings, to help them outflank it in the air & at sea. By then, the island may rejoin PRC on its own accord, for its own good.

    They don't need carriers to attack Taiwan, it is only 180km away from the Mainland which would be more useful making them air assault platforms as the distance is at the limit of helicopters.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:30 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    miketheterrible wrote:False concepts. First off, No cruise missiles at flew over Russian base. Video and photos or it's all fake news. Second, S-400 isn't aimed for cruise missiles tbh. That job is for smaller systems like Pantsir. S-400 is more aimed at high/med altitude engagements. S-400 wouldn't really be able to strike a cruise missiles unless it was about ~20km from the base. Only option would be to have A-50 flying up at same time to guide the AD missiles to the cruise missiles.

    And no, Scalp wasn't fully successful. Major parts intact we're handed over from Syria to Russia. Which Russia showed in pictures.



    According to this infographic they flew right over our AD zones.  We said we never saw them and the briefing shows the targets destroyed.  Whether you believe it or not is not something that can be debated with anyone but yourself.  It is like getting a mosquito bite and never seeing the mosquito... just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it wasn't there.  The welt the bite left was and there were Syrian reports of casualties at the French strike zone.

    Earlier, a local security source told Sputnik that at least 6 civilians have been injured as a result of a missile strike on a military depot to the west of Homs.

    https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201804141063542578-civilians-injured-syria-us-strike/

    That's impossible not to notice as they would light up like a Christmas tree when launched, and we already have pics of Russia's radar control of that region.

    Don't take an infographic to heart. They usually are trash.

    You are also inconsistent. First you don't believe what your mod or government says about capabilities, but claim they are correct to say they didn't see them.

    Shall I post the picture of the Scalp missile parts?

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-04-25/russian-military-shows-wreckage-us-missiles-intercepted-syria

    Just because there was 1 destroyed building, doesn't mean all missiles all of a sudden were success Laughing

    Also, if they flew over the base, can you show evidence of that? Can you show me how many KM from base it flew by?  As well, provide documents of some sort showing they didn't see scalp missiles? I don't seem to recall that tidbit.

    I'm failing to find any info on these claims.
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:51 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:You are also inconsistent. First you don't believe what your mod or government says about capabilities, but claim they are correct to say they didn't see them.

    I take information based on motivation and context to reach a well informed conclusion. The government has every reason to let misinformation stand about our nuclear arsenal as it makes us appear stronger so that others are less likely to mess with us. There is no reason for them to lie about not detecting the French launch platforms. They were stealth frigates several hundreds of kilometers in open water. It is not so easy to find such targets not to mention LO Rafale also hundreds of kilometers away. One of the FREMM frigates did not launch to avoid detection by our search aircraft so they made every effort to conceal themselves and it worked. The infographic may or may not indicate the actual path of their cruise missiles, but they did enter over the Syrian coast and we should have detected them as we have full coverage of those areas as well as AWACs up at the time. They detected everything but the French, no reason for the MoD to lie about it so I take it as fact.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:00 pm

    Hard to say. Cause the Scalp missiles used by UK we're detected.

    I know radar systems very well. And specifically, I can tell you we have detected up north using 1950's radar on stealth. So you are telling me Russian radar wouldn't spot that? That's a flat out lie, seeing as our old radar subsystems were using older Warsaw pact transistors.

    Most are saying from what I read on Reddit was because none of those French missiles flew over Russian base.

    BTW, good read

    https://southfront.org/failures-of-french-missiles-during-syria-strikes-details/
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    Vladimir79

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Vladimir79 on Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:11 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:Hard to say. Cause the Scalp missiles used by UK we're detected.

    I know radar systems very well. And specifically, I can tell you we have detected up north using 1950's radar on stealth. So you are telling me Russian radar wouldn't spot that? That's a flat out lie, seeing as our old radar subsystems were using older Warsaw pact transistors.

    Most are saying from what I read on Reddit was because none of those French missiles flew over Russian base.

    BTW, good read

    https://southfront.org/failures-of-french-missiles-during-syria-strikes-details/

    The Tornadoes were detected because they have a huge RCS. This enables our radar operators to put a tighter more powerful beam to monitor if they will launch something. The Rafale were never detected so we never had to the chance to put a tightened beam on their launch point. The French FREMM are also much stealthier than the American AB class which sticks out like a sore thumb, same process applies. The French infographic says they flew over our AD, you can believe it or not is up to you.
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    miketheterrible

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  miketheterrible on Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:10 pm

    Yeah, I wouldn't believe it at all. A low flying missile would have been picked up at around 30km by low altitude radar so no, it didn't fly over Russian AD. That is pure fantasy from the French.

    And rafales not picked up by radar? You do know how radar works, right? Those things would light up bright on any VHF radar, no problem.

    So no, I won't believe that infographic at all on the basis of common Sense and basic physics.
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    Isos

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Post  Isos on Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:14 pm

    EXCLUSIF. Syrie : les secrets de l'opération Hamilton

    Par Guerric Poncet

    C'est la France qui a piloté l'ensemble du dispositif aérien, le 14 avril. Malgré un raté, l'objectif fixé par le politique a été atteint.

    Quelques jours avant les frappes contre le régime de Bachar el-Assad, sur la base américaine de Ramstein, en Allemagne, deux officiers français de l'armée de l'air foncent au quartier général de l'US Air Force en Europe. Dans leurs valises, les plans du raid aérien français en Syrie qu'ils doivent proposer aux Américains. Il faut faire vite : Donald Trump, Emmanuel Macron et Theresa May viennent de se mettre d'accord pour frapper ensemble, et il appartient aux militaires de régler les détails. Sur ordre de l'Élysée, les Français ont peaufiné leur scénario de rétorsion, dès le lendemain de l'attaque chimique du 7 avril à Douma, attribuée au régime de Bachar el-Assad, et ils ont déjà identifié la plupart des cibles.

    L'idée est d'envoyer de France une poignée d'appareils qui seront ravitaillés en vol et frapperont la Syrie, 3 500 kilomètres plus loin, sans faire escale : cinq Rafale équipés de dix missiles de croisière SCALP, quatre Mirage 2000-5 pour les protéger, deux avions radars Awacs et six avions ravitailleurs. Grâce à cette préparation avancée, l'armée de l'air obtient le commandement de tout le volet aérien de l'opération. Les Américains, dont l'essentiel de la force de frappe est maritime, greffent au raid français quelques chasseurs qui partent d'Aviano, en Italie, ainsi que deux bombardiers supersoniques B-1 et des avions ravitailleurs. Quatre Tornado britanniques rejoindront le dispositif au dernier moment puisqu'ils décollent de leur base d'Akrotiri, sur l'île de Chypre.

    Effet de saturation

    « Nous avons d'abord élaboré ce raid comme une opération 100 % française, où nous allions frapper seuls, puis elle est devenue tripartite », raconte le général Jean-Christophe Zimmermann, commandant de la défense aérienne et des opérations aériennes, que nous rencontrons sur sa base de Lyon-mont Verdun. Malgré les quelques bâtiments et radômes qui dépassent de la colline, le coeur de cette base est situé 130 mètres sous nos pieds, dans une gigantesque installation souterraine, que l'on appelle ici pudiquement l'« ouvrage ». On y accède par un tunnel de plusieurs centaines de mètres. Sur trois étages, l'armée de l'air a installé ses centres de décision cruciaux; c'est de là que le général Zimmermann a commandé les avions français, américains et britanniques, le 14 avril.

    GRAPHIQUE

    QG. La base de Lyon-mont Verdun est le centre névralgique de la défense aérienne française. De là ont été coordonnés les avions français, américains et britanniques.

    ©️ Guerric Poncet

    Le raid doit faire « face à un rideau de défenses sol-air intégrant des systèmes capables de prendre en charge plusieurs cibles en même temps, raconte le général, et nous avons cherché un effet de saturation, afin de maximiser les chances de nos armes de passer au travers ». Les missiles intercepteurs russes ne sont pas entrés en action, mais il fallait prévoir le pire : dans la région, « les Russes se sont déjà entraînés à intercepter leurs propres missiles avec leurs avions », poursuit le général Zimmermann. L'effet de saturation est décuplé par les quelque 85 missiles tirés par les navires et bombardiers américains, là où seize missiles français étaient prévus au total : huit pour les aviateurs, huit pour les marins. De leur côté, les Britanniques tirent huit missiles.

    L'avion radar Awacs est au coeur du dispositif tripartite. Deux des quatre Awacs français (un principal, un en soutien) rejoignent la zone et la surveillent pendant toute la durée du raid. L'appareil principal embarque un officier de la marine et un officier américain pour la coordination et, surtout, le colonel Julien*, qui porte, ce jour-là, la casquette de Haute Autorité de défense aérienne, c'est-à-dire l'officier clé de la mission : il donne le feu vert final pour les tirs. « Avec l'Awacs, nous voyons tout », confie cet homme, que nous rencontrons sur sa base d'Avord, dans le Cher.

    Le 14 avril, à peine arrivés au large de la Syrie, les Awacs français se découvrent un voisin : un A-50 Mainstay (Awacs russe) et son escorte, « restés sur zone pendant toute la durée des frappes », au beau milieu du canal de Syrie. Une façon de collecter des informations précieuses sur les Occidentaux. « Nous l'avons fait aussi sur eux », s'empresse d'ajouter le général Zimmermann. Pour limiter le flux d'informations récupéré par l'autre partie, « des mesures ont été prises sur nos bases, y compris contre ceux qui nous voient d'en haut », assure le général, évoquant les satellites-espions russes, dont les heures de passage sont parfaitement connues.

    GRAPHIQUE

    L'un des Awacs français qui ont participé au raid du 14 avril. Le radar de 9 tonnes qui tourne au-dessus du fuselage "?voit?" à plusieurs centaines de kilomètres à la ronde.  

    ©️ Guerric Poncet

    Ratés et incidents

    Dans les Awacs français, l'ambiance est feutrée. « Chacun jouait sa partition, résultat d'un travail de préparation long et complexe », raconte le colonel Julien. Dans ses classeurs, le jour J, une vingtaine de « what if », des décisions prédéfinies si quelque chose se passe mal. Par exemple, si un avion ravitailleur n'est pas au point de rendez-vous ou si les Russes décident de réagir. Chaque décision est ajustée selon le risque admissible, une notion fixée au plus haut niveau.

    Les Russes ne réagissent pas : ils observent. Ils font savoir qu'ils sont là.

    Comme c'est souvent le cas dans des opérations de haute importance, l'un des cinq Rafale français est en réserve, tout comme ses deux missiles SCALP. Les marins ont pour leur part prévu trois frégates multimissions (FREMM), dont une en réserve. Selon nos informations, les deux frégates principales doivent tirer huit missiles de croisière navals (MdCN), soit quatre chacune, et la FREMM de réserve se tient elle aussi prête à en tirer quatre. Mais, une fois l'opération lancée, les choses ne se passent pas comme prévu : l'attitude inamicale de deux navires russes présents dans la zone, dont la frégate de nouvelle génération « Amiral-Grigorovitch », empêche les marins français de tirer leurs missiles dans la fenêtre de tir d'une poignée de minutes. Résultat : seuls trois MdCN seront tirés. Un raté qui pousse les aviateurs à envoyer plus de missiles SCALP que prévu : neuf au lieu de huit. Mais pas dix, car eux aussi subissent un incident relativement rare : le dixième SCALP ne part pas du Rafale, qui s'en serait finalement séparé au-dessus d'une zone maritime déserte avant de rentrer en France.

    Les missiles tirés évoluent au ras du sol, peuvent suivre des traits de côte ou des vallées et zigzaguer avant de grimper au dernier moment, pour frapper la cible à la verticale. Les Russes ne réagissent pas : ils observent. « Ils ont fait savoir qu'ils étaient là et je pense que leur objectif était de nous dire : On aurait pu, mais on a décidé de ne pas intervenir. Ce qui est une posture plus forte que s'ils avaient laissé leurs avions sur le parking », analyse le général Zimmermann, qui évoque toutefois des brouillages et des actions cyber.

    Pour les militaires, la mission est accomplie : l'objectif fixé par le politique a été atteint. Toutefois, cette opération illustre l'inquiétant durcissement de l'accès aux espaces aériens. Côté politique, on perd beaucoup d'énergie à camoufler des ratés qui, si regrettables soient-ils, ne sont pas rares lors de l'utilisation d'une nouvelle arme. Et les deux objectifs des frappes ont été atteints pour la France : d'une part, le message politique est passé, avec le soutien crucial des États-Unis et de la Grande-Bretagne, sans lesquels l'opération aurait peut-être été techniquement réalisable, mais politiquement inimaginable. D'autre part, la France est bien entrée dans le club fermé des nations disposant de missiles de croisière opérationnels sur des navires, avec les États-Unis, la Russie et la Grande-Bretagne

    This is an article (not free but a member on a french forum shared it) where a french general of air defence forces is interviewed. It says two FREMM were unable to launch their missiles because of two agressive russian ships and not plane. Agressive means they found french ships. Some say they jammed french ships. The general says there were some little hacking attempt. So yeah they detected them.

    It also says russian showed them they saw them, they could have attacked them but choosed not to. It is the words of the general, not of the journalist.

    S-400 can't detect and shot missiles that are low flying more than 50km away just like any awacs can't see them far away too. Syrian coast is full of mountains and the most likly scenario is that they went through Lebanon. Your picture is nothing official, just a stupid map for propaganda to show where syria is and where the sea is and where french forces were.


    Last edited by Isos on Sun Aug 05, 2018 6:18 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

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