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    PLA Navy and Naval Air Force

    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:23 am

    Occupying it during peacetime when it is not actively contested does not mean they will keep it if hostilities start... you can call an Island an unsinkable carrier all you like but if any target of value on its surface can be repeatedly hit by cruise missile or standoff weapon what real value does the island hold?

    Will NATO dare to attack Russia's Kaliningrad region or Japan/US dare to attack Sakhalin & Kurils 1st? China also has nukes, so they can nuke themselves & the invaders on those islands if nothing else works. A new reality is created in the SCS, just like in the Black Sea with Crimea. By the same token, Mao had shelled the Taiwanese held Quemoy & Matsu but didn't dare to invade them. Those islands r still part of ROC's defense. https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/quemoy_matsu.htm
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Taiwan_Strait_Crisis
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:17 am


    The aircraft used against the Royal Navy were part of the Aeronavale of Argentina, that is a naval asset.  Like I said, naval combat experience post WWII is based around aviation.  

    The J-20 is part of the mystique paper tiger.  Chinese claim they have AESA but don't, they claim they have operational engines but don't. If they did we would not keep exporting to them.  They bought the Su-35 more to reverse engineer its subsystems than to actually use it just as they bought the Kilos, tore them down and never used it.  That above all tells us more about the true state of their technical level.  

    Conducting combat ops is far more rigorous than training, at least the way we do it.  The Americans and French train the way they will fight and then they put it to the test, reevaluate and improve.  The way we do it is more experimental than practical which is why I am thinking keeping a carrier is really just a proving ground to sell naval aviation products.  

    The French carrier has been modernised to hold up to 40 Rafale and they modernised the 2 E2-C Hawkeye.  They have sufficient assets to keep watch over their fleet.  The Rafale have been updated to F3R standard which includes AESA and Meteor integration.  They are more than a match for what China would throw at them.  Their biggest problem is running out of ammo.

    I agree. But what I mean is that combat experience is not a big factor anymore. Argetinian fighter pilots where not engaged in any naval war before Malvinas and yet they did their job while UK had better tools and they lost modern ships.

    J-20 even with russian Pesa radar will be very good at launching antiship missiles from 500km away. Su-35 have also started patroling the sea.

    French navy will never fight china alone. They will only go if US and dogs go. They would need all their vessels to protect the carrier and they are not so much modern. They have 7 modern frigates while the rest is old. La fayette are more like missile boats than frigates. The MdCN is 1000km range so they will take risks to launch them. 40 rafales without refueling tankers won't help a lot.

    Chinese navy has for now the same role as soviet: defendig mainland.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:34 am

    Russia took land in 1969 after kicking Chinas ass with smaller force. It was recently given back under Medvedev. Hence why Russia and China have good relations now.

    Rafale was cleared for AESA radar but so far isn't equipped with it, not en mass.

    There is almost no info on Chinese military AESA besides maybe 1 or 2 pictures. Rest is all guesses.

    China still uses modified Russian engines RD-33 for their J-31 and Al-31 for J-20. Their radar is in heavy question on what is used. Their navy engines we're shit by Russian standard.
    GarryB
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    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:59 am

    Will NATO dare to attack Russia's Kaliningrad region or Japan/US dare to attack Sakhalin & Kurils 1st?

    They can make up an excuse at any time they like... they will of course be the victims.

    Japan considers the Kurils as being their territory, and who is to say that some Japanese leader some time down the track might want to get reelected by saying they will take them back.

    I am pretty sure any NATO attack on Kaliningrad would be fully supported by Poland and the Baltic states, based on any provocation you care to invent... no matter what the facts are, it will be Russias fault.

    I mean the west funds a coup in the Ukraine, but the Ukrainians not accepting this as a done deal is all Russias fault... they are interfering with americas overthrown of the legally elected government in the Ukraine...

    It would be rather sad, but lets face it... Russia managed to step into the fire and pull the Crimea from the ashes, so it was not all bad... no amount of negotiating with the legitimate government could have had that result... so lucky Russia and sad for parts of the ukraine that had to suffer from its own government to get it.

    I think china should pay close attention because it was all clearly an attempt to make Sevastopol a NATO naval base and it backfired for the west.

    What the Americans will want to do now is wash their hands of it all... they don't want to have to inject funds into the ukraine... they wanted the black sea port but largely only to kick the Russians out of there and it has all turned to custard for them.

    Don't be surprised if the US decides to move its pacific fleet from Japan to Taiwan some time in the future.... they like to push buttons and they walk away if it turns against them...

    China also has nukes, so they can nuke themselves & the invaders on those islands if nothing else works.

    China has a few hundred nukes and not a lot of options when it comes to delivering them to the US. The US engaged in regime change in the Ukraine in an attempt to seize Sevastopol from Russia and Russia has thousands of nukes and plenty of delivery systems that can get them to the US.

    Chinese navy has for now the same role as soviet: defendig mainland.

    It seems to be expanding rather well beyond anything that the Soviets had... there is serious potential there, but as stated the right tactics and the correctly applied changes when needed are key.

    China still uses modified Russian engines RD-33 for their J-31 and Al-31 for J-20. Their radar is in heavy question on what is used. Their navy engines we're shit by Russian standard.

    Engines are tricky things to make... there are not that many countries with the skills and technology to make really good engines... despite what some may think they are not even very easy to copy... buying them from Russia is a solution that suits China and Russia for the moment...
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:43 am

    Isos wrote:

    I agree. But what I mean is that combat experience is not a big factor anymore. Argetinian fighter pilots where not engaged in any naval war before Malvinas and yet they did their job while UK had better tools and they lost modern ships.

    J-20 even with russian Pesa radar will be very good at launching antiship missiles from 500km away. Su-35 have also started patroling the sea.

    French navy will never fight china alone. They will only go if US and dogs go. They would need all their vessels to protect the carrier and they are not so much modern. They have 7 modern frigates while the rest is old. La fayette are more like  missile boats than frigates. The MdCN is 1000km range so they will take risks to launch them. 40 rafales without refueling tankers won't help a lot.

    Chinese navy has for now the same role as soviet: defendig mainland.

    Argentina lost the war so there is that. If they had been smart to set the fuses on their dumb bombs on the A4s it might have been enough to dissuade the British to abort. It is experience like that which can make or break a war effort.

    Most warships these days have stealth characteristics the size of a fishing trawler so the range would be nothing like that. To detect a carrier at 300km you have to fly at 10km altitude to get it over the curvature of the Earth. A J-20 is only stealthy from the frontal arc so any radars that can get another aspect on it can detect and track it.

    France would never want to fight China, but if her sovereignty is under threat she will either in an alliance or not. They have enough modern vessels to maintain a carrier task force along with sub escorts. The Rafale has buddy refueling so that is their tanker if they can't get a tanker into the area but they have bases all over and friendly nations that would let them base. If the MN was going to launch strikes into Mainland China it would require a steady supply of missiles for the Rafale, the shipbourne MdCN is not enough to take out more than a few bases.

    French interests lie for their companies in the 9 Dash Line, if China did something to one of those operations you could see France strike back. If Taiwan was attacked the EU would send a task group led by the CdG, along with the Americans. If China gets really ambitious and starts invading Indochine you would definitely see a French response especially if they are doing their version of Imperial Japan.

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:34 pm

    Most warships these days have stealth characteristics the size of a fishing trawler so the range would be nothing like that. To detect a carrier at 300km you have to fly at 10km altitude to get it over the curvature of the Earth. A J-20 is only stealthy from the frontal arc so any radars that can get another aspect on it can detect and track it.

    Carriers are not stealth. 10km is half of what modern fighters can fly. A group of 48 j-20 supported by some 24 su-35 flying 15km altitude is a big threat ro any carrier. It will be faster for them to launch their long range anti ship missile than launch rafales or f-18 to catch them 300km away. You can't launch 40 rafales in 2 min and the few that are patroling have to deal with a formation of 5th generation fighters and 4++ fighters. Even f-22 couldn't do a lot agai st that. Let alone 2 patroling rafale with more fuel tanker on it than missiles.


    France would never want to fight China, but if her sovereignty is under threat she will either in an alliance or not. They have enough modern vessels to maintain a carrier task force along with sub escorts.


    No they don't. Their ships are not immune to missiles. 7 Fremm and 2 horizon is not what will protect a carrier from the thousands of chinese missiles. I have already had this conversation with other members here that think a carrier can stay far away from the enemy and attack zasily which is wrong. Rafale and f-18 or f-35 will always oblige the carrier to go near the shores where it is reachable by antiship missiles

    If China gets really ambitious and starts invading Indochine you would definitely see a French response especially if they are doing their version of Imperial Japan.

    They needed half of their air force to launch 9 missiles against undefended buildings in Syria. And they waited for US to launch 100 missiles. And you seriously think they can attack alone china.
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:46 pm

    Isos wrote:Carriers are not stealth. 10km is half of what modern fighters can fly. A group of 48 j-20 supported by some 24 su-35 flying 15km altitude is a big threat ro any carrier. It will be faster for them to launch their long range anti ship missile than launch rafales or f-18 to catch them 300km away. You can't launch 40 rafales in 2 min and the few that are patroling have to deal with a formation of 5th generation fighters and 4++ fighters. Even f-22 couldn't do a lot agai st that. Let alone 2 patroling rafale with more fuel tanker on it than missiles.

    I think you are missing my point. The picket escorts are stealthy and indistinguishable from small fishing vessels without a visual ID. They screen the carrier far away from it's actual location. If any PLAAF or PLANAF aircraft are hunting for the carrier, they will be spotted before they find the carrier. In order for a launching aircraft to get within range of the carrier it will be targeted by a picket escort before it can launch. The CAP would probably intercept it even before that. The J-20 would be getting close to the pickets before it would detect the carrier and it would be showing the aspect of its undercarriage to the picket as it would be flying high to increase the range of its surface search. It isn't stealthy in that aspect and easily picked up. Either the picket could engage it or they could pass the track to the Rafale CAP.


    No they don't. Their ships are not immune to missiles. 7 Fremm and 2 horizon is not what will protect a carrier from the thousands of chinese missiles. I have already had this conversation with other members here that think a carrier can stay far away from the enemy and attack zasily which is wrong. Rafale and f-18 or f-35 will always oblige the carrier to go near the shores where it is reachable by antiship missiles

    Yes they do. The Rafale will do most of the work of stopping Chinese missiles from ever getting launched. Escorts are not the first line of defence, the carrier aviation is. Yes, a carrier can stay far away from it's enemy if it has CATOBAR. Your scenario only applies to ones without catapults.

    They needed half of their air force to launch 9 missiles against undefended buildings in Syria. And they waited for US to launch 100 missiles. And you seriously think they can attack alone china.

    They used 5 Rafale that traveled 7000km, hardly half of their air force and they fired at the time that all missiles would impact for a saturation effect. They could easily attack China alone, the question is to what end. They don't have the assets to wipe them out so it would have to be an operation limited in scope or a long deployment station with several resupplies. If they can get 40 Rafale on this modernised CdG you are talking about more combat power than a standard Nimitz CAG. The Rafale F3R is far superior to a Super Hornet.
    miketheterrible
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    Post  miketheterrible on Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:30 pm

    It would be mighty hard to launch so many Rafale's so fast to counter act supersonic missiles you know.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:28 pm


    I think you are missing my point. The picket escorts are stealthy and indistinguishable from small fishing vessels without a visual ID. They screen the carrier far away from it's actual location. If any PLAAF or PLANAF aircraft are hunting for the carrier, they will be spotted before they find the carrier. In order for a launching aircraft to get within range of the carrier it will be targeted by a picket escort before it can launch. The CAP would probably intercept it even before that. The J-20 would be getting close to the pickets before it would detect the carrier and it would be showing the aspect of its undercarriage to the picket as it would be flying high to increase the range of its surface search. It isn't stealthy in that aspect and easily picked up. Either the picket could engage it or they could pass the track to the Rafale CAP.

    The area of deployment will be empty of fishing boats. And even if not those fishing boats will most liklely be chinese so they can give the location of the enemy ships by radio. Even easier to find the carrier.

    Those escort ship will need to turn on their radar so they will be spotted. They can also be hit by antiship missiles. And aster missiles have 120 km range so the j-20 can stay out of the engagement zone of the frigates.

    Chinese are not Syria. They have plenty of other tools to detect carriers. Not only j-20 radars. They also have like 3 times bigger navy than french navy. Their ssk are not that bad and they have s-300 on many of their frigates. UK jamed some exocet during malvinas which means french missile don't have 100%Pk.

    They also have tactics. They won't send all the fighters at 15km altitude and turn on their radars at max power. They can prepare an attack and attack from many sides. Good luck intercepting that.

    Yes they do. The Rafale will do most of the work of stopping Chinese missiles from ever getting launched. Escorts are not the first line of defence, the carrier aviation is. Yes, a carrier can stay far away from it's enemy if it has CATOBAR. Your scenario only applies to ones without catapults.

    Yes 2 rafales stoping a formation of 5th generation stealth fighter supported by as many su-35. When you attack you can send all your fighters like israeli did against egypt. Defending 24/7 with all your fighters is impossible. Rafale+Meteor is good but not a miracle weapon. Su-35 are made to destroy them. What makes you think that if french rafale intercept chinese su-35 it would be the rafale that wins ?

    Big value targets that they may want to hit are deep into mainland so no rafale doesn't have enough range to keep the carrier far away. Russia and china are making antiship missile with almost 1000 km range plus the range of bigger sukhoi that is bigger than rafales the carrier will need to be close enough so in the engagement zone of the chinese airforce.

    They used 5 Rafale that traveled 7000km, hardly half of their air force and they fired at the time that all missiles would impact for a saturation effect. They could easily attack China alone, the question is to what end. They don't have the assets to wipe them out so it would have to be an operation limited in scope or a long deployment station with several resupplies. If they can get 40 Rafale on this modernised CdG you are talking about more combat power than a standard Nimitz CAG. The Rafale F3R is far superior to a Super Hornet.

    And two awacs, half of their tanker fleet, 4 mirages, 5 frigates for 12 missiles.

    And 3+3 MdCN that didn't work from two different frigates and 1 scalp didn't work. Don't be so rude with chinese technology.

    They could attack china but they would lose many ships and fighters too.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:17 pm

    And they also could lose their Polynesia- giving China a good base between Hawaii, Australia & NZ; if the UK participates, add Pitcairn & Flint islands. China can use her subs, fishing boats, satellites & UAVs for detection & AShBM, land based AShMs to hit CSGs/MEUs (Marine expeditionary unit) even w/o exposing tactical aviation. The J-20s r good to shot down tankers, AWACS, & big UAVs. I doubt they'll be used in anti-ship role. For that, they have SU-30s & H-6Ks.
    The USN/AF, RN, RAN, FN, & JMSDF can keep sailing & flying inside the 9 dash line all they want, as if this chest beating can change much. China is smart enough to do anything it can to avoid getting into the Thucydides trap.
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/06/09/the-thucydides-trap/

    China has a few hundred nukes and not a lot of options when it comes to delivering them to the US. The US engaged in regime change in the Ukraine in an attempt to seize Sevastopol from Russia and Russia has thousands of nukes and plenty of delivery systems that can get them to the US.

    They do have ICBMs & SLB/CMs- even w/o strategic bombers, it's enough. They can also stop buying US debt, causing huge economic losses w/o firing a single shot.
    The hybrid war in Ukraine has plausible deniability to it, & the RF responded in kind- the US didn't have to fear Russian nukes as Crimea was retaken at the right moment, restoring the balance.
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:04 pm

    miketheterrible wrote:It would be mighty hard to launch so many Rafale's so fast to counter act supersonic missiles you know.

    If the French are in a combat zone with the Chinese Navy, they will have one or both Hawkeyes in the air providing AWACs coverage as well as screening SSNs scouting ahead. They will see where the Chinese fleet is long before the Chinese know where they are. Any task group that could threaten their carrier would have strike packages prepared against before they got in range to launch. French SSNs would take out as many ships as they could at that time. The Chinese don't have supersonic missiles to worry about. The missiles on the Sovremenny were never refurbished and long past their shelf life. Their main weapon are Exocet clones with old version of French Exocet motors. It really limits the range they can engage, the listed specs of hundreds of kms range are bunk. The best weapon for the Chinese are their MP Badgers that could launch large missile strikes against them, of course the Rafale with Meteor would take them out long before they were a threat. If the Chinese submarines weren't so loud I would say it was too dangerous, but when the Japanese can force the latest Chinese submarine to surface, they won't have any chance against French ASW which sets the world's standard at Thales.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:11 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:.......the Japanese can force the latest Chinese submarine to surface, they won't have any chance against French ASW which sets the world's standard at Thales.      

    Question: how do you force the submarine to surface without attacking it?

    Genuinely asking.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:15 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Vladimir79 wrote:.......the Japanese can force the latest Chinese submarine to surface, they won't have any chance against French ASW which sets the world's standard at Thales.      

    Question: how do you force the submarine to surface without attacking it?

    Genuinely asking.

    If it is a diesel you follow him and force him to go at full speed untill it has to surface because no more oxygene or no more electric power. A nuclear sub can just go away at full speed.
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:58 pm

    Isos wrote:The area of deployment will be empty of fishing boats. And even if not those fishing boats will most liklely be chinese so they can give the location of the enemy ships by radio. Even easier to find the carrier.

    Those escort ship will need to turn on their radar so they will be spotted. They can also be hit by antiship missiles. And aster missiles have 120 km range so the j-20 can stay out of the engagement zone of the frigates.

    Chinese are not Syria. They have plenty of other tools to detect carriers. Not only j-20 radars. They also have like 3 times bigger navy than french navy. Their ssk are not that bad and they have s-300 on many of their frigates. UK jamed some exocet during malvinas which means french missile don't have 100%Pk.

    They also have tactics. They won't send all the fighters at 15km altitude and turn on their radars at max power. They can prepare an attack and attack from many sides. Good luck intercepting that.

    You are talking about some of the largest fisheries in the world, of course there will be fishing trawlers and hundreds if not thousands of them.  Some of them will be Chinese, but very few actually work for the Chinese coast guard and lack anything more than binos.  

    Considering French naval radars are LPI they would know they were on but not where.  It won't be long before all French radars are based on the Thales Sea Fire GaN AESA.

    But what are the Chinese ability to counter the latest block of Rafale?  In it's low penetration strike role for which it was designed LO from the top down so it can easily get close enough to launch its Exocets before they are detected.  With its AESA radar, low RCS and Meteor BVRAAM the Chinese aircraft going against it would be little more than target practice.  Rafale Spectra is among the most advanced defencive suites in the world, the Chinese don't have anything to jam Mica and Meteors.

    The French are not stupid, they will not be sailing within land based ASMs.  The Chinese will have to engage them far out at sea where they lose their home advantage.

    Yes 2 rafales stoping a formation of 5th generation stealth fighter supported by as many su-35. When you attack you can send all your fighters like israeli did against egypt. Defending 24/7 with all your fighters is impossible. Rafale+Meteor is good but not a miracle weapon. Su-35 are made to destroy them. What makes you think that if french rafale intercept chinese su-35 it would be the rafale that wins ?

    Big value targets that they may want to hit are deep into mainland so no rafale doesn't have enough range to keep the carrier far away. Russia and china are making antiship missile with almost 1000 km range plus the range of bigger sukhoi that is bigger than rafales the carrier will need to be close enough so in the engagement zone of the chinese airforce.

    The CAP would be more like 4 Rafales in a combat zone each carrying 12 BVRAAMs for a total of 48 missiles on tap with more on standby.  French BVRAAMs have high probability of intercept with their Mach 4 speeds and advanced seekers, without a quality DRFM jammer Chinese aircraft would be swatted like flies with few misses.  

    I doubt a French action against China would be going deep into the Mainland.  They could if they needed to but they can nuke it from anywhere.  Any French action against China would be limited in scope unless they are backing up the Americans.    

    And two awacs, half of their tanker fleet, 4 mirages, 5 frigates for 12 missiles.

    And 3+3 MdCN that didn't work from two different frigates and 1 scalp didn't work. Don't be so rude with chinese technology.

    They could attack china but they would lose many ships and fighters too.

    It is called a strike package with redundant options that was launched from another continent 7000km round trip.  I thought it was rather impressive.  One of their Scalp didn't work, the MdCN was delayed from launching because of our patrols that had detected the Astute submarine that failed to launch its TLAMs. You remember from the DefMin briefing we detected everything except the French strike.
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:27 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:

    Question: how do you force the submarine to surface without attacking it?

    Genuinely asking.

    The Japanese had been tailing it for two days sending active pings to let the Chinese captain know they had a firing solution on him.  Maybe they said surface or you are dead over hydrophone, maybe he suffered technical problems, maybe he wanted to communicate to tell them not to shoot. They had already followed him into international waters which is illegal so he was probably extremely spooked the Japanese could attack.  Either-way it was a total embarrassment even the Chinese recognise.
    Tsavo Lion
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:39 pm

    France-China Relations: From ‘Special’ to ‘Strategic’?
    http://www.eu-asiacentre.eu/pub_details.php?pub_id=130
    From a strictly strategic viewpoint, France’s announced plan will not have a determining impact on the situation in the South China Sea. After all, despite being a major military power with global reach, France’s military presence in the region is limited. Besides, outside of France, what other EU nation has a permanent naval and air presence in the Pacific? https://thediplomat.com/2016/07/south-china-sea-the-french-are-coming/
    The French have a lot more to lose by going to war than to gain. The same is true for UK, Japan & USA.
    The FN & RN can be attacked near the Indian Ocean choke points by Kilo SSKs (they have 2 Project 877, 10 Improved Project 636, + 15 Yuans) &/ SSNs (they got ~9) lying in wait.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilo-class_submarine#Operators
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_039A_submarine
    https://www.popsci.com/first-picture-chinas-secretive-new-submarine-type-093b
    https://www.iiss.org/blogs/military-balance/2017/10/china-submarine-force
    The YJ-10 is thought be one of China’s most advanced ASCMs with an estimated operational range from 220 to 540 kilometers. According to Chinese media reports, the missile is fitted with a 300-kilogram high-explosive or anti-radiation warhead. The missile, reportedly capable of reaching a terminal speed of Mach 2, has an inertial guidance system using BeiDou Navigation Satellite System data. Type 093A/B and Type 093G subs are reportedly comparable to U.S. Navy’s Los Angeles-class Flight I and the more advanced Flight III variants in terms of stealthiness. https://thediplomat.com/2018/06/image-may-confirm-advanced-anti-ship-capability-of-chinas-type-093-submarine/

    They'll get there before the French & British cross the Med. & Red Seas. To avoid them, a trip around Africa/S. America (the Panama Canal is still too narrow) & Australia will take even longer, but even then the PLAN subs will be waiting for them in the W. Pacific & SC & EC Sea. If all else fails, AShBMs from deep inland can be used.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_aircraft_carrier_Charles_de_Gaulle
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Elizabeth-class_aircraft_carrier
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal#Third_set_of_locks_project_(expansion)


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    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:51 pm




    You are talking about some of the largest fisheries in the world, of course there will be fishing trawlers and hundreds if not thousands of them. Some of them will be Chinese, but very few actually work for the Chinese coast guard and lack anything more than binos.

    Considering French naval radars are LPI they would know they were on but not where.  It won't be long before all French radars are based on the Thales Sea Fire GaN AESA.

    They probably have some radios if they go far away.

    And No they are not. Heracles on FREMM are pesa with 250km range. EW goes ahead. Those LPI radars will be detected as electronics improves.

    For french awacs it is the same. A su-30 accelerating to mach 2 at 15 km altitude could attack it with a r-27 from very far.

    But what are ...... the world, the Chinese don't have anything to jam Mica and Meteors.

    They have su-35 and Irbis-E and also awacs that work in a band of frequency spectra will have hard time jamming. I would fear more japanese missiles with aesa radar than meteor. Spectra proved to be good against some soviet export monkey models systems nothing more. China also has jaming pods, maybe not that good but who knows how really good meteor is against jaming.

    J-20 is also stealth. At least from the front and it will get an aesa radar and very long range. So the same lvl as rafale if not better for anti shipping.

    The CAP would be more like 4 Rafales in a combat zone each carrying 12 BVRAAMs for a total of 48 missiles on tap with more on standby

    It is 2 meteor and the rest being mica or fuel tanks. Mica is not better than r-77.

    And again j-20 and su-35 are just as good as rafales. Even your army doesn't feel necessery to replace 4++ fighters with 5th gen because western fighters are not that much advanced.

    You also forget chinese ssk that coukd wait for target passing near them. 1 torpedo can stop aircraft launching from a carrier.


    the MdCN was delayed from launching because of our patrols that had detected the Astute submarine that failed to launch its TLAM

    Then why the third one launched its missiles. Did russian ships sailed on top of the french VLS ?


    You remember from the DefMin briefing we detected everything except the French strike.

    IMO this is all political. They had a-50U in the air, they had grigorovitch with probably radars turned on because it was already near enemy ships and the rafales were protected by not stealth mirages which can be detected by A-50 from very long range. So yeah that's total BS not to hurt the french.

    For UK and US, french are useless and their rafales are bullshit. Saying rafale was better than US and UK fighters kinda trolls them but also could make french sell more and reduce to US arms market. It is easier for russia to enter in a new market where france sells its products than where US has the monopole. They sold bmp-3 to Emirats who operates Leclerc but they never sold anything to Saudi Arabia which is US private market.

    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:54 pm

    Vladimir79 wrote:
    PapaDragon wrote:

    Question: how do you force the submarine to surface without attacking it?

    Genuinely asking.

    The Japanese had been tailing it for two days sending active pings to let the Chinese captain know they had a firing solution on him.  Maybe they said surface or you are dead over hydrophone, maybe he suffered technical problems, maybe he wanted to communicate to tell them not to shoot.  They had already followed him into international waters which is illegal so he was probably extremely spooked the Japanese could attack.  Either-way it was a total embarrassment even the Chinese recognise.

    And russian detected european ssk 20km away from Kuznetsov in the mesiteranean sea. They also followed british SSBN to record it. Any subs can be tracked.

    chinese have access to pretty advanced kilo class so they can copy to have something "good enough". At least for SSK. Their SSN are probably limited by their reactors because russia and soviet never helped them on that technology.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:28 am

    "Any sub can be tracked." Yes, but if it's an SSK, if u r lucky or if got ur own SSK when & where needed. The USN failed to detect the old Song SSK before it surfaced within 5 mi. of CV-63 & Gothland SSK before it repeatedly "sunk" CVN-76 in exercises:
    https://www.warhistoryonline.com/history/chinese-submarine-appeared-in-the-middle-of-a-carrier-battle-group.html

    https://news.usni.org/2014/10/28/lessons-swedens-sub-hunt
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:04 am

    Isos wrote:

    chinese have access to pretty advanced kilo class so they can copy to have something "good enough". At least for SSK. Their SSN are probably limited by their reactors because russia and soviet never helped them on that technology.

    They have access to the MGK-400EM digital sonar, they have reverse engineered it into something less than what it is. It is fine for a patrol lurking in littoral waters but it lacks the range for deep sea ops. If they are using that as the basis for their SSNs they are in a world of trouble. Chinese nukes are noisy, we helped them develop their programme in the beginning but even then gave them dated 1st gen technology. It is definitely one of PLAN's weakest links.
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    Post  Tsavo Lion on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:30 am

    HOW DO INDIAN SUBS COMPARE?
    Vladimir79
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:30 am

    Isos wrote:They probably have some radios if they go far away.

    And No they are not. Heracles on FREMM are pesa with 250km range. EW goes ahead. Those LPI radars will be detected as electronics improves.

    For french awacs it is  the same. A su-30 accelerating to mach 2 at 15 km altitude could attack it with a r-27 from very far.

    Radios can't identify a stealth frigate, you need to see it with your eyes which limits the assistance Chinese trawlers could provide the PLAN.  

    The Heracles is a PESA radar, it is also an LPI radar with advanced waveforms and low sidelobes.  China doesn't have the analysis capabilities to pinpoint it.  

    French AWACs are the same as the American.  China never bought R-27.  They have SD-10 which is an R-77 seeker with an inferior motor with similar range to a Mica.  They would never get that close to the French AWACs unless they could perform a saturation attack and suffer many loses in the attempt.    

    They have su-35 and Irbis-E and also awacs that work in a band of frequency spectra will have hard time jamming. I would fear more japanese missiles with aesa radar than meteor. Spectra proved to be good against some soviet export monkey models systems nothing more. China also has jaming pods, maybe not that good but who knows how really good meteor is against jaming.

    J-20 is also stealth. At least from the front and it will get an aesa radar and very long range. So the same lvl as rafale if not better for anti shipping.

    They don't have Su-35 yet, but when they do it still doesn't have the self protection capabilities of the Rafale.  The entire time Rafale was flying in Syria they were sniffing the trons of our aircraft to gain emissions data for their Spectra database.  They probably have it on the Su-57 as well.  It was a mistake to take them there.  


    It is 2 meteor and the rest being mica or fuel tanks. Mica is not better than r-77.

    And again j-20 and su-35 are just as good as rafales. Even your army doesn't feel necessery to replace 4++ fighters with 5th gen because western fighters are not that much advanced.

    You also forget chinese ssk that coukd wait for target passing near them. 1 torpedo can stop aircraft launching from a carrier.

    It is 4 Meteor and 8 Mica for a full CAP load-out.  They have buddy refueling so they don't need drop tanks.  

    J-20 isn't as good as anything.  Su-35 is far better than J-20 which is why they bought it to tear down and examine.    

    The French fleet will be in open water, Chinese can't predict where to place SSK to wait for it.  


    Then why the third one launched its missiles. Did russian ships sailed on top of the french VLS  ?

    The ships were in different locations.  They had a timetable in order to launch a saturation attack it had to be at such a time.  The ship scheduled to launch picked up one of our patrol aircraft and did not want to reveal its location by launching.  They did not know if we were going to retaliate.  


    IMO this is all political. They had a-50U in the air, they had grigorovitch with probably radars turned on because it was already near enemy ships and the rafales were protected by not stealth mirages which can be detected by A-50 from very long range. So yeah that's total BS not to hurt the french.

    For UK and US, french are useless and their rafales are bullshit. Saying rafale was better than US and UK fighters kinda trolls them but also could make french sell more and reduce to US arms market. It is easier for russia to enter in a new market where france sells its products than where US has the monopole. They sold bmp-3 to Emirats who operates Leclerc but they never sold anything to Saudi Arabia which is US private market.

    We had no reason to be nice to the French to play politics.  If we had detected them we would have said so, it makes us look stronger if we did but facts are facts.  The Rafale is a beast of an aircraft and we would do well not to underestimate it.  Arab arm sales are not really relevant to this.  
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Jul 26, 2018 1:37 am

    Tsavo Lion wrote: HOW DO INDIAN SUBS COMPARE?

    i think your Kilos are the same as the Chinese ones but you actually bought the missile package. Those are being replaced by the Kalvari which is far better than anything China has.
    Isos
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    Post  Isos on Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:10 am

    Radios can't identify a stealth frigate, you need to see it with your eyes which limits the assistance Chinese trawlers could provide the PLAN.  

    The Heracles is a PESA radar, it is also an LPI radar with advanced waveforms and low sidelobes.  China doesn't have the analysis capabilities to pinpoint it.  

    French AWACs are the same as the American.  China never bought R-27.  They have SD-10 which is an R-77 seeker with an inferior motor with similar range to a Mica.  They would never get that close to the French AWACs unless they could perform a saturation attack and suffer many loses in the attempt.    

    Seriously stealth doesn't make them invisible. A fisher can see it if it is close enough. Fremm has 1 gun and horizon has two gun. Carrier are huge and anyone can see them and identify them as carriers. Those fishers probably see military ships everyday.

    They also have a bigger missile in developement for anti awacs.

    They don't have Su-35 yet, but when they do it still doesn't have the self protection capabilities of the Rafale.  The entire time Rafale was flying in Syria they were sniffing the trons of our aircraft to gain emissions data for their Spectra database.  They probably have it on the Su-57 as well.  It was a mistake to take them there.  

    They have. They even started maritime patrols with them.

    Spectra is not a miracle tool. Against aesa it is not so good. Russia has also gained information on rafale like its rcs and its radar too. Corrupted egyptian generals have also access to aesa radar of rafale ...

    Su-57 is aesa. They probably didn't even detected them.

    It is 4 Meteor and 8 Mica for a full CAP load-out.  They have buddy refueling so they don't need drop tanks.  

    J-20 isn't as good as anything.  Su-35 is far better than J-20 which is why they bought it to tear down and examine.    

    The French fleet will be in open water, Chinese can't predict where to place SSK to wait for it.  

    4 rafale + buddy refueler. How long do you think they can do this. They have only one carrier, 1 crew and 40 rafales.


    J-20 is stealth feom the front so for anti shiping it can be good. If a ship is detected they can approach very close.

    They have lot of diesel subs, put them 600km away from the cost and 50km away one from another and patrol. Carriers are noisy. Even a kilo would detect it from far away. And CdG needs to move to launch its fighters.


    The ships were in different locations.  They had a timetable in order to launch a saturation attack it had to be at such a time.  The ship scheduled to launch picked up one of our patrol aircraft and did not want to reveal its location by launching.  They did not know if we were going to retaliat

    Su-24 were flying above them 2 days before. A grigorovitch class intercepted them before launch. All the group was detected. Their mdcn is 1000km range. Draw a circle 1000km from syrian coast and you know where they are. All you need then is patrol that area with a radar which takes 1h.

    We had no reason to be nice to the French to play politics.  If we had detected them we would have said so, it makes us look stronger if we did but facts are facts.  The Rafale is a beast of an aircraft and we would do well not to underestimate it.  Arab arm sales are not really relevant to this.  

    French also said that they said to russians they will attack prior to the attack. Mirages are not stealth, neither are rafales and the refueling tankers with them. A-50U works in L band, you can't jam it with mighty Spectra. They intercepeted even f-22 which far more steakthy than spectra. They also have ELINT assests so any jamer is detected around syria.

    Even if they didn't saw them, they knew they will attack with US because Putin was informed so russia would have said they did saw them. Why then say that brand new s-400 and grigorovitch and A-50U didn't detect them ? That makes no sense unless they try to make confusion in NATO offices by saying french are better than UK, US because theUS and UK hate them.

    French def minister said all the missiles were successfully launched which proved to be a lie. They are liars.

    So saying they detected only UK and US is total bullshit. I don't know why they said that, you shold have relation in the army ask them.

    I don't want to start a new debat but just about the mighty French army, Nazi had inferior tech before ww2 than french and they won. A rafale that wins in exercices with the best pilot is not the same as a eafale piloted by a normal guy during a real war when he knows he can die against a fighter he never met in combat.
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    Post  Vladimir79 on Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:55 pm

    Isos wrote:Seriously stealth doesn't make them invisible. A fisher can see it if it is close enough. Fremm has 1 gun and horizon has two gun. Carrier are huge and anyone can see them and identify them as carriers. Those fishers probably see military ships everyday.
    They also have a bigger missile in developement for anti awacs.

    They can see them if they are in range to see them, if it is night operations they can't see much of anything.

    Spectra is not a miracle tool. Against aesa it is not so good. Russia has also gained information on rafale like its rcs and its radar too. Corrupted egyptian generals have also access to aesa radar of rafale ...

    Su-57 is aesa. They probably didn't even detected them.

    The Chinese don't have AESA radars to worry about. We have them but for A2G mode not so good. This is yet another reason we do not mass produce Su-57.. yet.

    4 rafale + buddy refueler. How long do you think they can do this. They have only one carrier, 1 crew and 40 rafales.


    J-20 is stealth feom the front so for anti shiping it can be good. If a ship is detected they can approach very close.

    They have lot of diesel subs, put them 600km away from the cost and 50km away one from another and patrol. Carriers are noisy. Even a kilo would detect it from far away. And CdG needs to move to launch its fighters.

    With buddy refueling the pilots can stay up on CAP as long as their bodies can handle it which reduces the need for higher sortie generation. How do the Chinese expect to maintain a CAP when they have to take off with half fuel?

    The J-20 is still 1m^2 from the front, with 2 Hawkeyes and several AESA equipped Rafale's along with several picket destroyers I doubt a J-20 could get close enough to launch the small missiles it could carry internally. It is not like they can fit a full size ASM in those internal bays.

    Su-24 were flying above them 2 days before. A grigorovitch class intercepted them before launch. All the group was detected. Their mdcn is 1000km range. Draw a circle 1000km from syrian coast and you know where they are. All you need then is patrol that area with a radar which takes 1h.

    The Defmin said the French launches were not detected. We did a fly-over of one of their ships several days before in the middle of the day. They launched at night.

    French also said that they said to russians they will attack prior to the attack. Mirages are not stealth, neither are rafales and the refueling tankers with them. A-50U works in L band, you can't jam it with mighty Spectra. They intercepeted even f-22 which far more steakthy than spectra. They also have ELINT assests so any jamer is detected around syria.

    Even if they didn't saw them, they knew they will attack with US because Putin was informed so russia would have said they did saw them. Why then say that brand new s-400 and grigorovitch and A-50U didn't detect them ? That makes no sense unless they try to make confusion in NATO offices by saying french are better than UK, US  because theUS and UK hate them.

    French def minister said all the missiles were successfully launched which proved to be a lie. They are liars.

    So saying they detected only UK and US is total bullshit. I don't know why they said that, you shold have relation in the army ask them.

    I don't want to start a new debat but just about the mighty French army, Nazi had inferior tech before ww2 than french and they won. A rafale that wins in exercices with the best pilot is not the same as a eafale piloted by a normal guy during a real war when he knows he can die against a fighter he never met in combat.

    The French tankers were doing a holding pattern over Crete so that is much too far for us to detect. Their AWACs was somewhere near Cyprus, the M2000s were not at the front but watching the egress of the Rafale's to make sure they weren't followed back. Basically to respond to any attempts to intercept the Rafale the M2000s would pounce at order of the AWACs. It is a typical strike package doctrine.

    Our ambassador to Lebanon said that any attack by the Americans or her allies would be countered by our forces, the French were just being prepared. I was rather shocked that we didn't even fire one SAM with French missiles flying over our base, it turns out we never even picked them up. That Scalp missile must be rather stealthy, much stealthier than a Tomahawk, we had no problem detecting those.

    All of the missiles the French launched were successful. The ones you are talking about were never launched so he wasn't lying.

    Well, we did say we never detected them and there is no reason for the Russian DefMin to lie about that. It doesn't benefit us in any way.

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