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    New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

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    GarryB
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    New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:59 am

    I am thinking in terms of new US proposals of swarm attacks with UCAVs.

    Remember a UCAV is an armed UAV so you really can't ignore it, it is a direct threat that must be dealt with (and would be difficult to be dealt with by tanks).

    If you get 50 UCAVs attacking a unit then you suddenly start looking at available ammunition and ready to launch missiles. For Tunguska that is 8 ready to launch and just under 2,000 rounds of 30mm ammo.

    Of course with a modern fire control system and 70 degree elevation of its 30mm cannon the BMP-3M would actually be rather dangerous to air targets too.

    With a decent C4IR system the threats could be labelled and so all the BMP-3Ms would not be firing at the same target, they could have their own target assigned to them and more efficiently deal with the threat

    Of course with guided 57mm shells an armoured vehicle could carry 100-150 shells.

    I don't think such a vehicle would replace Tunguska, but for a unit that is facing a potential swarm attack then replacing some of the BMP-3Ms with vehicles with the same chassis but a new turret with a 57mm gun some sort of detection and tracking and lasing equipment and 75-100 rounds of laser guided 57mm shells might be a good solution.

    Perhaps a further development with a dual feed system with two 20 round ready to fire racks, one with standard high velocity HE Frag rounds and the other filled with laser homing shells for hitting point targets that include aerial and ground targets.

    Depending upon the cost of the 57mm guided rounds these could supplement gun tube fired rounds like those fired from the 125m guns of the tanks and the 100mm rifled guns of the BMP-3s.

    Perhaps even use the BMP-3Ms to lase the targets for the 57mm shells using its sophisticated thermal sights and auto tracking systems.

    BTW it is another area where the Russian Army and Russian Navy could work together to develop a useful system for both.

    Vladimir79
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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  Vladimir79 on Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:58 am

    BMP-3 engaging aerial targets is mostly for show. That cannon is not very good at shooting anything down. Having Panstyr and TOR-M2 would be enough air cover. It just has to be deployed to the Army in enough numbers to make up for retiring SAMs.

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  medo on Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:20 pm

    It's true, that modernized BMP-3M, BMD-4, Krizanthema, etc could do limited air defense job against low flying helicopters and planes, but air defense guns and SAMs will still have their role in battlefield in protecting armored units. Smaller cal. guns with high rate of fire will be primarily used against bombs and missiles launched from planes and helicopters, bigger cal. guns could be more properly used against very low helicopters, because they have longer range to reach them and gun rounds could go through trees, behind which helicopters take cover.

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    Post  GarryB on Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:01 am

    The newer vehicles have optical auto trackers and laser range finders so a slow moving target like a helo should be a potential target as well as a threat... of course the commander has to see the target first, whereas a real air defence vehicle will have radar warning and information passed to it from the AD network.
    With the new C4IR system however all vehicles will be made aware of aerial threats and could supply data to help to defeat them.

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:33 am

    Just thinking that perhaps a good idea might be one of those telescopic case rounds for the new 57mm calibre weapon.

    There is no reason why they have to stick with the old 57mm calibre round, they could adopt brand new telescopic case technology and introduce a 57mm round and develop all their new rounds based on that.

    It means higher muzzle velocities, more efficient conventional ammo for the gun to further extend range, and of course for the guided rounds their effective range could be further extended and indeed effective altitude improved as well.

    Obviously more expensive than using an existing round but then why do you want a reason to hang on to all those old guns and old ammo anyway?

    It seems that the Russian naval infantry are not getting upgraded PT-76s anyway, they are getting all new vehicles so this new upgrade could go a step further.
    Telescopic case rounds in this case could start as a 57mm weapon and develop maybe into a 65mm shell later on very easily and the performance of a decent sized round should make 250-350mm penetration performance out to 2km potentially possible with a smooth bore long barrel which means as a MIFV main gun you should be able to take on anything except enemy tanks front on and be a significant threat from the side and to hovering aircraft to fairly long range.
    A thin walled HE round should pack enough HE but still be carried in large enough numbers of rounds to effectively replace the 30mm cannon and 100mm rifled gun in some situations.

    The better shaped new round should make mechanised ammo racks much simpler and more effective and carry more ammo.

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:44 am

    I should point out the main reason I am thinking the 57mm system might be useful... especially if the altitude and effective range of the guided munitions for it can be increased is the problems the Russian forces had with Georgian UAVs.

    The thing is that UAVs have relatively small IR signatures so missiles like Igla have trouble getting locks on them, especially the small higher flying ones (5,000-6,000m or so).

    The ZU-23 would be a waste above about 2,000m and BUK missiles are a bit expensive, though at a 15km ceiling they can certainly do the job.

    Pantsir-S1 could do the job and TOR could too, but I think a guided 57mm shell... if its cost can be brought down enough, makes for a better solution and would introduce a round that is useful for other roles.
    Certainly the laser guided shell is not limited to aerial targets and could be used against sea based targets and targets on land.

    It might even have potential as a CAS gun round using laser homing guidance for single shots at the roofs of tanks where the aircraft comes in on a run and fires 4-5 x 57mm guided shells at a tank turret roof and each shell slams into the target one after the other... even if they are HE FRAG that will mess up their fancy optics quite a bit. Would be a relatively efficient way to deal with a line of soft vehicles like fuel and ammo trucks... especially if some sort of optical self homing system could be used or perhaps MMW radar.

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  medo on Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:03 pm

    Modernized 57 mm gun with autoloader and stabilization developed for PT-76 modernization is excellent basis for heavy AA gun. I think this gun must be placed in heavier turret with better armor and placed on tank chassis. In that way this will be heavy AA gun, which could go together with tanks in first line. Instead of Liga-S FCS it could have newer FCS with TI and higher vertical angle. It definitively need data link, search radar is more an option. This gun could engage flying and ground targets and could use different ammo, like HE-frag, HEAT, APFSDS, laser guided, etc. Which will be used will depend on target and situation of engagement.

    This gun could be also used on SPRUT-SD chassis for VDV air defense, because it could engage higher targets than MANPADs or Strela-10.

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    New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jan 19, 2011 1:06 am

    I think the problem is that good enough is the enemy of the best.

    This new 57mm gun has potential to reach aerial targets out to about 6km or so and ground targets probably to 8km.

    It would be an excellent replacement for the 76.2mm gun of the PT-76, but as a replacement for the 30mm the question is does the 30mm need replacing just yet?

    The problem is that while the 76.2mm gun of the PT-76 is certainly obsolete and in need of replacing, the fact is that it is more likely that it will be replaced with Sprut than with the Liga upgrade. The 125mm is in widespread service and ammo is not a problem.
    Reintroducing the 57mm (after the SA-8 pretty much replaced it) when the 30mm is already pretty capable is a bit of a stretch.

    I suspect it will depend a lot on how experiments with 57mm on the BMP work out, because if they can develop a round that will penetrate Bradleys and Warriors and other in service western IFVs and it also has a guided shell for air to air use then it might make sense to replace the 30mm with the 57mm.

    Personally I think to get that performance they will need to go to a new type of 57mm ammo, perhaps telescopic case to improve ammo handling and storage while maximising performance and power of the round. I also think a smooth bore gun would be warranted as its primary ammo would be armour piercing for use against enemy IFV and the guided anti aircraft shell would be fin stabilised too, with HE rounds needing simple fin stabilisers the performance of the gun could be further improved through higher muzzle velocities lower gun weight and easier maintainence/cleaning.

    I personally think they will likely develop the 57mm round further, probably naval use will begin first.

    Remember there was some experimenting with a 57mm gun for the Il-102 and the Su-25 before they decided to go for a 30mm twin barrel gun... eventually perhaps all three services will take the plunge but likely not together... hopefully they will share the technology and not have to reinvent the wheel three times.

    They certainly did it right with the 30 x 165mm shell.

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    New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  Austin on Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:44 pm

    Any idea what this Gun is ?

    A unique 57mm artillery system for air defense to create in Russia

    РИА Новости http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150715/1129692910.html#ixzz3fxYdr3I1


    MOSCOW, July 15 - RIA Novosti. CRI "Petrel" develops in the interest of the military defense self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery system caliber 57 millimeters, surpassing the leading foreign counterparts, he said in an interview with RIA Novosti CEO of the company Georgy Zakamenny.

    "We are creating a 57-mm rapid-propelled anti-aircraft artillery system for military defense. Without revealing details, I can say that the level of tactical and technical characteristics of the created military equipment surpasses the best foreign counterparts," - he said.


    According Zakamenny, "Petrel" also suggested Navy quick-automatic gun mount similar caliber - now solved the question of acceptance into service.

    "Sailors, we also offered a light 57-mm quick-automatic gun mount, remote-controlled machine-gun units of various caliber. These weapons can effectively solve a very wide range of tasks. The choice - the command of the Navy," - a spokesman said.

    РИА Новости http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20150715/1129692910.html#ixzz3fxYhllB5

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 17, 2015 10:19 am

    Any idea what this Gun is ?

    At first I thought it was related to the A-220 turret 57mm gun upgrade for the PT-76, but the article mentions it is for air defence units... I doubt they will reintroduce the S-60... I rather suspect they have probably developed an anti aircraft gun version to their new anti armour gun for IFVs... as was shown during WWII the high velocity of anti aircraft guns generally made them effective in the anti armour role so they might just be the same gun.

    Even without guided shells this will be a very powerful weapon, but with guided shells the high rate of fire requirement for engaging manouvering fast targets becomes redundant... This means more efficient use of ammo, and much higher kill rate... especially against low cost targets.

    In fact for cheaper smaller targets like swarm UAVs you could use time fused rounds like ANIET and just set the rounds to explode amongst the UAVs with shrapnel doing the job....


    Article on the 2S34 upgrade of the 2S1. Doesn't sound like too many will show up

    Could not find article on 2S34... could you copy and paste it here?


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    Project Canada
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    ΑΑ 57mm gun

    Post  Project Canada on Fri Aug 14, 2015 2:51 pm


    Russia Brings Back the Good Ole 57 Caliber Gun

    The long-forgotten 57 mm caliber guns are being given a new lease on life in the Russian armed forces with a new such cannon raising admiring eyebrows everywhere.

    Originally designed for use on small ships, the AU-220M 57 mm automatic gun was later adapted for land use. The result – a truly magic gun, which is bound to be the biggest attraction grabber at this year’s Russian Arms Expo in Nizhny Tagil.
    With a rate of fire of 300 rounds per minute and a horizontal range of 16 kilometers this gun is an ideal weapon against all types of aircraft and armored vehicles, including tanks.
    Well, a 57 mm projectile will hardly cut through the 1 meter-thick front armor of an Abrams or Leopard tank, but a hail of high-explosive projectiles will surely wipe out optics, aerials, smash caterpillar tracks and jam the turret.
    In addition to its high rate of fire, the heavy 57 mm gun module which boats an uninhabited turret, active protection and an excellent Russian-designed fire control system, performs easy 180 degree turns while ensuring highly accurate fire.
    Also featured at the Nizhny Tagil expo will be a new version of the BMP-3 armored vehicle sporting a 57 mm gun combat module.


    http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150814/1025745692.html#ixzz3inUVaFvv

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  JohninMK on Fri Aug 14, 2015 6:57 pm

    More on 57mm guns

    The long-forgotten 57 mm caliber guns are being given a new lease on life in the Russian armed forces with a new such cannon raising admiring eyebrows everywhere.

    Originally designed for use on small ships, the AU-220M 57 mm automatic gun was later adapted for land use. The result – a truly magic gun, which is bound to be the biggest attraction grabber at this year’s Russian Arms Expo in Nizhny Tagil. With a rate of fire of 300 rounds per minute and a horizontal range of 16 kilometers this gun is an ideal weapon against all types of aircraft and armored vehicles, including tanks.

    Well, a 57 mm projectile will hardly cut through the 1 meter-thick front armor of an Abrams or Leopard tank, but a hail of high-explosive projectiles will surely wipe out optics, aerials, smash caterpillar tracks and jam the turret. In addition to its high rate of fire, the heavy 57 mm gun module which boats an uninhabited turret, active protection and an excellent Russian-designed fire control system, performs easy 180 degree turns while ensuring highly accurate fire.

    Also featured at the Nizhny Tagil expo will be a new version of the BMP-3 armored vehicle sporting a 57 mm gun combat module.


    Read more: http://sputniknews.com/russia/20150814/1025745692.html#ixzz3ioUHIENo

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  nemrod on Sat Aug 15, 2015 3:56 pm

    Thx Ausitin for info. thumbsup

    In fact I suspect for a long time ago Russia -as China, North Korea- was developing a new cheap  57 mm air defence with new guidance. Like as we've talked laser, and a new to track enemies aircraft without they are aware, like a kind of IRST. Moreover the secret is in its future ammunitions.
    Here is the ammunition of the of S-60 APHE-T Armour Penetrator High Explosive Tracer

    Here is the He-T : High Explosive Tracer

    The best must be the APHE-T as it could penetrate the armour of the aircraft, and explode its high explosive content, it must be devastating.  For that reason, I suspect the effective range is around 5-6.000 meters, other than 1.500 meters as they said in FAS. If the new S-60 contained a new guided ammunition it will deter any bombardment below 8.000 meters. The He-T ammunition in Vietnam hampered US air campaign, as in order to flee, or to avoid the huge losses US were obliged to fly above 6.000 meters and to bomb, but in this altitude, the effectiveness was aleatory. If Russia developed a new revolutionary S-60, it could be a severe blow to US. If you have more info about the future ammunitions, guidance,  the altitude range please let us know.

    My ref source-if you have others, please let's know-
    http://www.russianammo.org/Russian_Ammunition_Page_57mm.html#27


    57x348SR 57mm Russian S-60 AAA

    This gun, the M1950, was introduced in the late 50s and is basically referred to as S-60 anti aircraft gun.
    It is a medium range recoil operated cannon and replaced the earlier 37mm AA weapons almoust throughout the Warsaw Pact.
    Considering the design of the gun, Soviet engineers must have studied the wartime German "5,5cm Geraet 58" AAA. The weight of the S-60 was 4,6 tons and it had a 4160mm long barrel with destinctive muzzle break and downfoldable shield. The S-60 gun is fixed to a four wheel carriage and it was also used against light armored ground vehicles in the ground support role. A S-60 battery generally consists of six guns, a fire-control radar, and a fire-control director. The earliest versions had a PUAZO-5 fire-control director and a SON-4 radar, however, improved director/radar combinations were used in subsequent years.
    The ammunition is fed in 4-round clips into the gun, the rate of fire was 105 to 120rpm, range was 6000m with radar guidance, 4000m with optical sights.
    China also built its version of the S-60 and called it Type 59 anti aircraft gun.

    A self propelled version of the Russian gun, the ZSU-57-2 had a double barrel cannon designated S-68 mounted on a modified T-54 fuselage. It was introduced in 1957 and has basically the same characteristics as its single barrel brother, however, the ZSU-57-2 was not radar guided. The self propelled AA gun had 316 rounds of ammunition storage on board and is now considered as obsolete and was replaced by SAM systems arround 1980. China called its self propelled guns Type 80.

    The AK-725 AA gun was the Naval version of the S-60 gun and was introduced in 1958. It was mounted in  single, double and quadruple mounts designated ZIF-31on many early destroyers.
    Elevation was 0/+90°, the mount could be turnt 360° around.
    The ZIF-72 Naval AA gun was enclosed in a metal housing and fully automatic. It was a double barrel mount with water cooled barrels, it was also exported to India. The ZIF-72 was introduced in mid 1970 and was also a recoil operated weapon but ammunition was fed in belts, its overall weigth is 25 tons. Elevation was -10/+90°, the mount could be turnt 360° around.

    The S-60 type of guns were widely used in all RFAS states, it also was the main small AA gun of the North Vietnamese army.  They may still be in use in the former Yugoslavia and the Middle East.

    The HE-T shells have a blunt ogive shape and a long burning (about 12 sec.) No. 8 tracer element. A single large gilding metal driving band is fitted that has pronounced grooves. Cartridge cases are brass, silicon-brass or steel, those made of silicon-brass have the letter "K" imprinted in the headstamp.
    The UOR-281U high explosive fragmentation shell is filled with 154g A-IX-2 high explosive and has a MG-57 or MG3-57 delay self-destruction fuze and a tracer base screw fitted. It is lacquered olive drab with black lettering. The UBR-281U is a steel shot with a breaker cap and a ballistic windshield cap, the base is filled with 13g
    A-IX-2 high explosive and has a MD-10 delay base fuze with tracer No. 2 fitted. It is lacquered dark gray and has black lettering. The AP shells may not be used against airborne targets, only on light and medium armored tanks and are effective only up to 1500m. Rounds UOR-281 and UBR-281 (without letter U) have the same shell, but have a thinner case mouth and shallower swage grooves.
    The UBR-281 shell may also only have one swage groove and the UOR-281 shell may only be swaged with the above swage groove to the cartridge case.

    The UOR-281U-IN is basically the same as the UOR-281U but filled inert and with a dummy fuze. This practice shell is painted black above the bourrelet and gray below and has white lettering and the word "INERT" painted on in Russian.
    The UBR-281U-IN is basically the same as the UBR-281U but filled inert and with a dummy fuze. This practice shell is painted black above the bourrelet and gray below and has white lettering and the word "INERT" painted on in Russian.
    All cartridges above have a propellant charge of 1180g of 11/7 smokeless powder and a KV-5 or KV-5-U percussion primer screw, maximum chamber pressure is 3100 kp/cm².
    If a shell is stuck in the barrel, a shortened cartridge case may be used to shoot the barrel free. The mouth of an empty cartridge case is cut by 30 to 35mm and loaded with 75% of the standard propellant charge which is fixed by a piece of cardboard.
    The MK-281 blank round has a charge of 560g of 4/1 blank-cartridge-powder.
    A proove cartridge with water filled substitute projectile is used as well.
    Inert drill rounds are used as well, the inert shell is fixed with a steel rod to the base of the cartridge case. The round has the same appearance and weight as life rounds but is lettered for identification.

    5 rounds are packed in a gray-green lacquered wooden box that measures 650x580x210mm and weights 49kg. Ammunition is/was manufactured by Bulgaria, China, former Czech Republic, Egypt, Yugoslavia, Poland and Russia. Early Russian cases and newer Polish cases can be made of steel as well, cases of Silicon-brass were used as well.

    Ammunition used in these guns:

    USSR Designation US Abbreviation Bullet Weight [g] Muzzle Velocity [m/s] Description
    UOR-281 HE-T
    2850

    1000
    Fragmentation shell
    UOR-281U HE-T 2850 1000 Fragmentation shell
    UBR-281 APHE-T
    2820

    1000
    With ballistic cap, high explosive charge in base, base fuze with tracer
    UBR-281U APHE-T 2820 1000 With ballistic cap, high explosive charge in base, base fuze with tracer
    UOR-281U-IN TP-T
    2850

    1000
    Inert filled practice shell, like HET
    UBR-281U-IN TP-T
    2820

    1000
    Inert filled practice shell, like APHET
    MK-281 Blank
    /

    /
    Truncated cartridge case



    GarryB
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    ΑΑ 57mm gun

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 16, 2015 10:30 am

    A couple of things to keep in mind... first of all the APHE-T round certainly would be totally devastating to almost any target, because an explosive inside a target... especially filled with fuel and soft human bits is very vulnerable to such things... the outer shell of a vehicle normally offers some protection from blast damage even very thin vehicles, but with internal explosions that outer shell contains and concentrates the explosion inside the vehicle making blast damage much much worse.

    A pile of powder on a table will go fluff if you set fire to it. Put that same pile of powder inside a cartridge case inside a rifle and ignite it by pulling the trigger and pressure builds and while the same power is released it is concentrated and you hear a real bang as the gas escapes the barrel.

    Second thing however is that the guidance and flight control bits needed for a guided shell means the guided rounds wont carry anywhere near the same HE payload a standard dumb round will, and it also wont be moving as fast when it leaves the barrel.

    Having said that a high portion of effective range is accuracy, and a guided shell could be lofted ballistically at the target and rely on sheer mass for effect with a HE payload of perhaps 1-2kgs.

    I remember comments about the naval 57mm gun having an effective range of 12km with HE shells against area targets.


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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  George1 on Fri Dec 25, 2015 9:41 am

    Russia is developing new antiaircraft artillery system — defense ministry

    The antiaircraft artillery system with a 57 mm gun is to replece the Tunguska and Shilka air defense systems

    MOSCOW, December 24. /TASS/. Russia is developing a new antiaircraft artillery system with a 57 mm gun, Air Defense Troop Commander, Lieutenant-General Alexander Leonov said on Thursday.
    "A promising antiaircraft artillery system with a 57 mm gun is under development to replace our Tunguska and Shilka complexes," Leonov said in a live broadcast of Rossiya-24 TV Channel.
    The Shilka is a Soviet-made self-propelled antiaircraft system armed with a quadruple 23 mm gun designed to provide cover for ground forces, destroy air targets at ranges of up to 2,500 meters and altitudes of up to 1,500 meters flying at a speed of 450 meters per second.
    The Tunguska missile and gun system is designed to detect, identify, track and destroy various types of air targets (helicopters, tactical aviation planes, cruise missiles and drones) and also to destroy surface and ground targets.

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/defense/846745


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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  Mindstorm on Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:01 am


    The antiaircraft artillery system with a 57 mm gun is to replece the Tunguska and Shilka air defense systems


    Yes, as said several times in the past, when the new larger caliber gun and rounds was still in early development stage, the greater potential offered by those new 57 mm calibre autocannons is just in the anti-air role and, particularly ,in the anti-PGM/UAV segment (among any other small sized UAV and guided ammunitions against which programed detonation of 57 mm round will be very highly efficient)

    The largely expanded engagement footprint ,over 12 km against similar "soft" air targets, will moreover not only allow to destroy similar menaces largely before them get a chance to accomplish theirs tactical task (for surveillance UAVs collect and disseminate positional data and for PGM reach theirs defeating area , included submunition delivery) but also allow the reengagement of objects surviving the first volley.


    Unification with standard ground forces IFVs and BMPTs types will also allow to establish an integrated battle management system capable to maximize the harmonization of area of coverage between EW support vehicles, anti-air specific complement and those ground forces vehicles with secondary area denial capabilities thanks just to the 57 mm guns increasing the resilience of mechanized and armoured divisions to today and perspective PGM attack on a completely new level.

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    Russia is developing new antiaircraft artillery system

    Post  Militarov on Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:13 am

    George1 wrote:Russia is developing new antiaircraft artillery system — defense ministry

    The antiaircraft artillery system with a 57 mm gun is to replece the Tunguska and Shilka air defense systems

    MOSCOW, December 24. /TASS/. Russia is developing a new antiaircraft artillery system with a 57 mm gun, Air Defense Troop Commander, Lieutenant-General Alexander Leonov said on Thursday.
    "A promising antiaircraft artillery system with a 57 mm gun is under development to replace our Tunguska and Shilka complexes," Leonov said in a live broadcast of Rossiya-24 TV Channel.
    The Shilka is a Soviet-made self-propelled antiaircraft system armed with a quadruple 23 mm gun designed to provide cover for ground forces, destroy air targets at ranges of up to 2,500 meters and altitudes of up to 1,500 meters flying at a speed of 450 meters per second.
    The Tunguska missile and gun system is designed to detect, identify, track and destroy various types of air targets (helicopters, tactical aviation planes, cruise missiles and drones) and also to destroy surface and ground targets.

    More:
    http://tass.ru/en/defense/846745

    Ha i told you they will do this Very Happy You didnt belive me back in time.

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  max steel on Fri Dec 25, 2015 6:52 pm

    Russia to Replace 2 Anti-Aircraft Artillery With New 57 Caliber Systems

    Commander of the Russian Land Force’s air defense stated that Russia is developing a new 57 caliber anti-aircraft weapon system to replace two existing systems. Russia is developing a new 57 caliber anti-aircraft weapon system to replace two existing systems, the commander of the Russian Land Force’s air defense said. "A promising new anti-aircraft artillery system with a caliber of 57 mm is being developed to replace ‘Tunguska’ and ‘Shilka’ systems," Lt. Gen. Alexander Leonov told reporters late Thursday. The ZSU-23-4 "Shilka" is an all-weather lightly armored self-propelled and radar guided anti-aircraft weapon system that has been in service since 1962 The tracked 2K22 "Tunguska" self-propelled anti-aircraft weapon armed with a surface-to-air gun and missile system began serial production in 1964 and entered into service in 1982.Russia is undergoing a $325-billion rearmament program to modernize 70 percent of its equipment by 2020.


    Maybe like former ZU-57, but with radar, optical and infrared devices and modern full automatic guns?

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:53 am

    Ofc i welcome return of high calibre AA guns, they are extremly cost effective compared to missiles even compared to cheapest ones like Verba/Igla/Mistral/Stinger and their accuracy with modern FCS and dedicated ammunition is excellent. But i dont really think direct fire from 122mm howtizers is needed today, you have fire support vehicles with 105/120/125mm guns for that role, tanks, IFVs with high caliber high velocity guns etc. I dont find it crucial, actually during Yugoslav wars i barely ever heard of direct fire by 122mm D30s, thats what i base my conclusion on.

    Direct fire rounds for 122mm guns are for self defence only.. but they make any platform with a 122mm gun more flexible as it can defend itself and destroy a wider range of targets on the battlefield. Direct fire is always much more accurate than unguided indirect fire.

    New IFVs will need larger calibre high velocity weapons to be effective... and IFV needs the capability to engage equivalent vehicles at 2km range or more so 57mm high velocity would be rather useful in the ground to ground as well as ground to air roles.

    Bog standard unguided rounds will be fine against most point or area targets on the ground but it would be much more efficient to use guided shells for airborne targets.

    Even with good FCS a manouvering target would require thousands of rounds to be fired at it to get a good kill probability but with guided shells one or two could do the job... greatly increasing the number of targets to be engaged on a full load of ammo.

    i dont think 122mm MLRS should go anywhere, however i just dont direct fire capability to be a must on light artillery. Back in time it was your only defence aganist tanks and armored vehicles, today as i already said you have plentiful and very widespread use of ATGMs and disposable AT weapons even in smallest infantry units.

    That might be your experience but clearly the Soviets and Russians think direct fire heavy HE rounds are a must... the BMP-1 remained in service with the BMP-2 because its HE capacity was much greater than any light auto cannon and BMP-3s 100mm gun proves the concept was clearly found to be useful of having a light auto canon and a heavier gun. With the need for larger calibre guns (57mm) means a larger HE payload can be carried by one gun... very similar to the transition in WWII when tanks had machine guns or short barrel 76.2mm guns firing low velocity HE shells for use against enemy troops, while their anti tank vehicles had high velocity 37mm and 45mm and 50mm guns and machine guns. The breakthrough tank was the T-34 with a medium velocity 76.2mm gun intended to do both jobs... ie significant HE fire power and armour penetration performance too.

    Contrary to popular belief the Soviet 45mm anti tank gun did have a HE round which meant it could serve out the war as an infantry support weapon against light vehicles and bunkers and light buildings.

    Maybe like former ZU-57, but with radar, optical and infrared devices and modern full automatic guns?

    More likely a single 57mm gun as high rate of fire is not so important when you have guided shells.

    Likely it will also have missiles in the form of SOSNA perhaps?


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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  higurashihougi on Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:11 am

    Is 57mm gun overkill for AA role ? Question

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  Militarov on Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:36 am

    higurashihougi wrote:Is 57mm gun overkill for AA role ? Question

    Naa, not really. Actually it might be perfect AA caliber with good FCS coz sizeable 57mm shell as it is can allow intergration of some very interesting types of fuses with sensors etc. Also it offers far greater reach than common 20, 25, 30, 35 and 40mm AA gun calibers, plus their potential on target in terms of mass would be far greater.

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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  GarryB on Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:24 am

    Is 57mm gun overkill for AA role ?

    It is not excessive it is actually now quite necessary.

    Anti aircraft guns are a compromise between hit probability and hitting power and range.

    You could make an anti aircraft gatling gun in 9x18mm... the light small cartridge means you could have an enormous rate of fire with hundreds of thousands of ready to fire ammo making hit probability very very high because the number of rounds you put in the air. the problem is low energy means totally weak hitting power and very poor range.

    At the other end of the spectrum you have a 152mm artillery system... range could be enormous and hitting power could destroy any aircraft with even a near miss, but extremely low rate of fire means hit probability is very low.

    After WWII the Soviets had a 37mm AA gun that combined good hitting power and range and with auto fire average hit probability. the replacement was the 57mm gun (S-60) with more power, more range and improved hitting power... the problem is that targets were getting faster.

    The solution was not just higher rate of fire because the 57mm rounds were huge and were never going to be fired in high rate of fire bursts.

    A fast moving target is predictable as long as it does not manover or slow down or speed up. Even a rather fast target can be hit reliably with one shot. the problem is that if it is manouvering then the interception point becomes an interception box and to assure a kill you have to fill that interception box with exploding shells... lots of them.

    The solution for the Soviets was the 23mm cannon in a cluster of four barrels that would send a shower of cannon shells... the result on target is like a cluster of shells like a shot gun blast arriving nearly at once all around the airspace the target will occupy.

    Over time targets got better armoured and better armoured so more range with a heavier shell was needed so 30mm weapons were adopted as the rate of fire was still very high and shell weight increased and effective range increased.

    the problem now is that a UAV or UCAV is tiny so even a very dense shower of projectiles might not guarantee a hit so multiple bursts would be needed in 30mm or lighter calibre.

    The solution of a heavier calibre would normally make things worse because fewer shells per minute means more gaps for the targets to fly through... but heavier shells means better effective range, more effect on target with a hit and the most critical... the ability to use guided shells to assure hits with one or two shots.

    Guns are multipurpose so a 57mm gun battery might 2/3rds of the rounds they carry as guided anti aircraft shells, but a few anti armour and simple HE shells for closer range or area targets... they can also do things most missiles can't like a delayed fuse time so you can aim at a tree and have the shell pass right through and explode on the other side to kill a helicopter hovering behind for instance.


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    New 57 Caliber Systems

    Post  eehnie on Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:42 am

    max steel wrote:Russia to Replace 2 Anti-Aircraft Artillery With New 57 Caliber Systems

    Commander of the Russian Land Force’s air defense stated that Russia is developing a new 57 caliber anti-aircraft weapon system to replace two existing systems. Russia is developing a new 57 caliber anti-aircraft weapon system to replace two existing systems, the commander of the Russian Land Force’s air defense said. "A promising new anti-aircraft artillery system with a caliber of 57 mm is being developed to replace ‘Tunguska’ and ‘Shilka’ systems," Lt. Gen. Alexander Leonov told reporters late Thursday. The ZSU-23-4 "Shilka" is an all-weather lightly armored self-propelled and radar guided anti-aircraft weapon system that has been in service since 1962 The tracked 2K22 "Tunguska" self-propelled anti-aircraft weapon armed with a surface-to-air gun and missile system began serial production in 1964 and entered into service in 1982.Russia is undergoing a $325-billion rearmament program to modernize 70 percent of its equipment by 2020.


    Maybe like former ZU-57, but with radar, optical and infrared devices and modern full automatic guns?

    It is a good idea. Surely very useful.

    And the selection of the 57mm caliber seems very logical. Maybe Russia keeps still some 57mm ammunition for the ZSU-57-2 in storage. Also some countries still use them. These countries surely will welcome more modern 57mm ammunition to give longer life to their ZSU-57-2.

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    New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  d_taddei2 on Mon May 16, 2016 12:55 pm

    sorry if already posted, Some pics of BMP-3 with 57mm gun with sources provided, theirs also a video clip on one of the sources showing it entering water. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

    https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2016/01/01/new-bmp-3-ifv-fitted-with-a-gun-mount-system-au-220m-armed-with-a-57mm-automatic-cannon/

    http://armyrecognition.com/rae_2015_news_official_online_show_daily_coverage/new_bmp-3_ifv_fitted_with_a_gun_mount_system_au-220m_armed_with_a_57mm_automatic_cannon_10909152.html






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    Re: New Automatic ΑΑ 57mm gun development

    Post  Austin on Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:04 am

    "Terminator 3" will receive two powerful 57-mm automatic gun
    The latest fighting vehicle fire support "Terminator 3" based on heavy tracked "Armata" platform will receive as the main armament just two 57-mm automatic cannon.

    Information about this is available in the blog of the famous Russian historian and expert Alexei Hlopotova tank. He, in turn, as a primary source refers to the book "Ural Railway Car Plant 80 years" S.V.Ustyantseva.
    Also doubles powerful 57-mm guns, advanced anti-tank guided missiles will be installed in "Terminator 3". Perhaps it is a third-generation products, which operate on the principle of "shot - forgot", ie, have a homing systems.
     Military experts ambiguously received this information, there is the opinion that weapons of "Terminator 3" is redundant and one 57-mm gun on the combat unit "Baikal" type would be enough. In any case, the new version of the combat vehicle fire support firepower will not be equal.


    http://vpk-news.ru/news/33827Подробнее: http://vpk-news.ru/news/33827

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