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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

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    Vladimir79
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    Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:15 pm

    Plant "Yantar" will deposit the Defense Ministry by the year 2012 the ship "Ivan Gren"

       

    OAO "Baltic Shipyard" Yantar "
    © RIA Novosti. Igor Zarembo
    17:03 03/11/2009

    KALININGRAD, November 3 - RIA Novosti, Vadim Smirnov. Baltic Shipyard (CCL) "Amber" plans in 2012 passed under construction by order of the Ministry of Defense landing ship Ivan Gren, told RIA Novosti the spokesperson of the company Sergei Mikhailov.

    "It is currently completing the formation of a new hull landing craft for the Navy of Russia. As of November 1, workers of the factory installed on a ship under construction the last section of the cabinet. After receiving the nose block housing became a holistic view, and assembly work came to the final stage," - said Mikhailov .

    According to him, it is planned that the pressure hull landing ship Ivan Gren "will be formed by the end of the month.

    "Subsequently, the work on its saturation and installing add-ins. In accordance with the schedule of the descent of the ship on the water must occur at the end of 2011. And in 2012, Ivan Gren will be transferred to the customer," - added the representative of the company.

    He clarified that the head BDK Project 11711 was laid on the Yantar in December 2004 to order the Defense Ministry.

    "Short order financing led to the slow pace of work until 2008, when the building received a new development. In 2010, this ship is expected to significantly increase the amount of work", - explained the agency.

    Baltic Shipyard "Yantar" was formed in July 1945 on the basis of the Koenigsberg shipyard firm "Shihan" (Schichau). He specializes in building small and medium vessels for military and civil purposes, as well as carrying out ship repair works. Since 1945, the factory built 154 warships and more than 500 civilian courts. Currently, a controlling stake in OJSC "Shipyard Yantar" controlled by the state in the person of JSC Western Shipbuilding Center.

    http://www.rian.ru/defense_safety/20091103/191795883.html

    ____________________________________________

    Displacement, full-load, t about 5,000
    Length, m 120
    Breadth, m 16.5
    Mean draught, m 3.6
    Propulsion plant diesel (10D49)
    Main engines (number x power), hp 2 x 5,000
    Full speed, knots 18
    Endurance, days 30
    Crushing range at 16 knots, miles 3,500
    Complement, men about 100
    Armament
    Multiple launch rocket system:
    Number of systems 2
    Caliber,140 mm

    Self-defense weapons:
    Number and type of artillery gun mounts
    (barrels x caliber) 1 AK-176
    (1 x 76mm), 2 AK-630 (6 x 30mm)
    Helicopter:
    Helicopter Ka-29,
    landing spot, hangar
    Landing control system Modul-V
    Military lift 13 60-ton tanks or 36 APCs;
    300 troops

    Viktor
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Viktor on Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:13 pm

    I still can not understand that Russia needs so mutch time to finish 5000 ton ship. Same goes for 22350 and etc.

    Vladimir79
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:29 pm

    Viktor wrote:I still can not understand that Russia needs so mutch time to finish 5000 ton ship. Same goes for 22350 and etc.

    Because our shipbuilding facilities are obsolete and broke. Recapitalisation and organisation are currently underway, but they just started recently. One thing Mistral production will do is give us a new shipyard to build cutting edge ships. This can be duplicated to other yards.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  milky_candy_sugar on Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:35 pm

    Suspect one of the consequences of Gorby's actions Suspect

    Vladimir79
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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  Vladimir79 on Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:02 pm

    milky_candy_sugar wrote:Suspect one of the consequences of Gorby's actions Suspect

    Gorby and Yeltsin, even Putin waited too long to address the issue, but at least he is doing so.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:22 pm

    There are still a lot of facilities in Russia that are producing ships for other countries. For instance, the Frigate for India (cannot remember name off top of my head at the moment) is producing 4 ships then Steregushy in half the time it takes to build the Steregushy. Not all of Russia's ship building plants are in dismay, but the ones that are not, are producing ships for other countries, as Russia is using their older and obselete facilities to build their own advanced ships, and that is why they are taking a long time.

    If Russia provides the funds in infrastructure development to these facilities, these old facilities can build aircraft carriers in shorter time then it is to build landing ships now.

    If the Mistral deal goes through, it will reduce the funds in development of infrastructure R&D, which then can be applied to all the ship building facilities to build large ships in short time and less man power.

    The only real shipyards that are building fast and powerful ships is the submarine industry in Russia. But Russia was known about her submarines more then her blue water ships.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:39 pm

    As mentioned in the Article:

    "Short order financing led to the slow pace of work until 2008, when the building received a new development. In 2010, this ship is expected to significantly increase the amount of work", - explained the agency.

    When the work is underfunded it goes at a slow pace. When properly funded the work gets done much faster.

    The Indians and Chinese get their (new) boats on time and on budget.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:38 pm

    Let us hope that 2012 will be the final promise for ivan gren commission date Smile

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TR1 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:46 pm

    No way it will be 2012. The ship isn't even close to complete, let alone commission. However, supposedly work has restarted, to what extent I can't say. Contract for 2nd boat signed.

    It has nothing to do with shipyards (well, they have rough conditions at times) but has everything to do with funding.
    The Ivan Gren stood still half the time because no money was coming in to work on it.
    Look at foreign orders in Russian yards, they make more impressive ships in faster time, because they get paid.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:05 pm

    Photo from today:

    http://balancer.ru/forum/punbb/attachment.php?item=267707&download=2

    Looks like it received a paint coat.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Wed Apr 25, 2012 10:28 pm

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=14995

    Project 11711 large landing ship Ivan Gren will be put afloat late in May, press service of Yantar Shipyard told Central Navy Portal.

    Currently, the yard is preparing the ship for transfer to launching dock. Afterwards, Ivan Gren will be put afloat and moored at outfitting quay.

    Large landing ship Ivan Gren was laid down at Yantar Shipyard (Kaliningrad) in Dec 2004 and was supposed to open a 4-ship series. During construction process, the Navy three times altered technical specifications; 22 serious changes were introduced in the project. That has led to considerable delays. So far, final technical appearance of the ship has not been determined. Scheduled keel-laying of the first batch ship was postponed.

    The landing ship is presently stays on the outdoor slipway; shipwrights are completing installation of interior equipment and laying cables. Due to underfinancing, works are going on slowly. Scheduled delivery date is 2014.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:00 pm

    Landing ships don't need the electronics and armament of frigates i guess. Their construction should be faster.


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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:16 am

    Agreed, though landing ships need the same comms and navigation equipment as any other ship in the fleet, and the first vessel in a class always takes longest because there are so many unknowns... will it work the way it was designed to?

    To be honest there is a greater need for Frigates and Corvettes and Destroyers right now.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Tue May 01, 2012 9:22 am

    Seems that Ivan Gren will be the only ship of its class...

    Kaliningrad, 27 April: The United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) will over the next three years draw up the designs of common platforms for future naval ships, to be submitted to the Russian Defence Ministry, USC President Roman Trotsenko told reporters on Friday [27 April].
    "The Russian Navy is going through a transitional period, during which the further development of and prospects for various classes of ships will be determined. At USC, we understand that the navy's aim is to cut down on both the type and class nomenclature of surface and submarine forces," Trotsenko said.
    According to him, USC's design outfits are actively engaged in work in this direction. What are known as common platforms for the types and classes of ships that will form the basis of the Russian Navy in the future are under development.
    "For example, on the corvette class, the design will be ready as early as 2012. The ocean-going ship will be there in 2013, and the aircraft carrier design is scheduled for completion in 2014," the president of the company said.
    He added that the standardization of the fleet according to type will allow the effectiveness of not only construction but also ships' operation and maintenance to be raised. These innovations will also necessitate adjustments in the combat training of the Russian Navy.
    For example, it has now been decided that OAO [JSC] Baltic Shipyard Yantar will not now build a series of Project 11711 Ivan Gren large landing ships (BDK) for the Russian Navy.
    "Only one hull will be completed. At the same time, the new ocean-going ship under development will combine not only strike capability but also perform missions specific to landing ships," Trotsenko said.

    Interfax-AVN military news agency, Moscow, in Russian 1259 gmt 27 Apr 12

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 01, 2012 11:49 am

    That is a very interesting article... Thanks George1.

    The Soviet Navy basically had a custom designed ship for every role, so for example in the anti sub role they had the Udaloy class destroyers which were quite well armed and equipped for the ASW mission. The missiles they carried at first were fully dual purpose anti sub anti ship missiles that were basically a rocket carrying a torpedo. If the target was a sub the torpedo was delivered to the target area by rocket and then the torpedo dropped into the water and hunted down the sub. In anti ship role the torpedo was not dropped and its warhead along with a warhead of about 300kgs attached to the rocket was guided into the target ship... the combined mass large enough to seriously damage most surface vessels. Later models of the missile even added IR guidance for the anti ship role which made them even more capable.

    But the sensors, the propulsion, the armament was all custom designed for the job of hunting submarines.

    The Sovremmeny class destroyers were designed to hunt surface ships and their armament and sensors and propulsion reflected that.

    The Sovs had Moskit or SS-N-22 Sunburn missiles as its primary armament while the Udaloy had 8 SS-N-14 Silex missiles. The smaller Krivak frigates had 4 SS-N-14 Silex missile launchers.

    The new Frigates the Russian navy is planning will have at least one and possibly 2 UKSK launchers... the difference is that the UKSK launcher can carry a range of missiles of different purposes and capabilities that exceed the capabilities of Moskit and Silex... note we are talking about Frigates here a Destroyer could be fitted with 3 or 4 UKSK launchers... each capable of carrying 8 missiles each.

    The payoff means that the Soviet Navy had a fixed number of anti ship dedicated destroyers and a fixed number of anti sub dedicated destroyers though they generally had a balanced weapon fit to allow them to protect themselves they were very much specialised vessels with very different weapons and sensors and propulsion systems, while the Russian navy instead of buying 12 Sovs and 14 Udaloys they can buy 20-30 Gorshkovs... the large production run makes them cheaper and quicker to build and the navy ends up with common weapon and sensor and propulsion systems to operate and maintain. Weapons companies can make fewer types of weapons in larger more sustainable numbers, and for the makers of engines and sensors it is the same.

    For Russia they have deep sea ports and they have river fleets and everything in between so a modular design could allow lighter weapon fits on some vessels destined for the Caspian Sea Fleet for instance, but such a situation requires a lot of planning and preparation and forethought.

    If you are going to build one Frigate type then it needs to be a good design able to do everything they want it to be able to do.

    Because the number of new vessels is low they will deviate from the plan of unified design a little... for instance waiting for the Lada M design to be built and tested and put into service would create a gap, so they are building a few upgraded Kilos to relieve the pressure, and in the case of the new destroyers and frigates they are building a few Talwars... which is basically a heavily modified Krivak which was basically a good ship that needed better armament and a helicopter... which the new upgrades have.

    Even these new "odd" vessels can have standard new sonar and radar and weapon options so they wont be a burden on the future support structure. For the same reason the Oscars and the Typhoons will likely be fitted out to use weapons that are available... in the case of Oscar the Granit (ie with an i not an a meaning the 7 ton supersonic anti ship missile as opposed to the Granat long range subsonic naval cruise missile) is out of production and needs to be replaced... with reports of Oniks being the missile of choice for now, though if they have developed a hypersonic all the way 1,000km range anti ship missile then I would suspect that would be more suitable if it is possible to fit. I rather suspect if they can fit them to the Yasen class then they should fit in the Granit tubes of the Oscar because Granit is rather larger than Oniks in width.

    Equally the Kuznetsov will likely lose its Granits completely and the extra space used either to make the hangar bigger or for storage of weapons or fuel for the aircraft embarked. As it is likely to get a full propulsion upgrade and possibly even EM cats they will really alter this vessel significantly and greatly increase its potential.

    And of course the Kirov class vessels they are talking about upgrading (2 AFAIK) they are likely to replace the Granit launchers (20) with 10 UKSK launcher bins for a total of 80 launch tubes. I would expect the front area on the vessel where before there was the 20 Granit tubes, and launchers for the Rif system (SA-N-6) and of course the front mounted SS-N-14 launcher they will likely put the UKSK launcher and the Redut launcher for SAMs. The UKSK can replace both the Granits and the SS-N-14s.
    The question is how is the 152mm Koalition system coming along... the land based version reportedly shoots to 40km with new standard shells of higher pressure, and up to 80km with extended range rounds with the ability to use GLONASS guidance systems to make them much more accurate.

    Such a system would be ideal for two main types of vessel... a Cruiser... and a landing vessel for naval gunfire support.

    The US returned to service the Iowa class battleships just for their guns but that was expensive and labour intensive... I would expect if they are working on new standardised vessels for landing that in addition to Tornado based rocket launchers that a 152mm or even 203mm gun might be useful to support landed forces.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Tue May 01, 2012 12:04 pm

    GarryB wrote:

    The Sovs had Moskit or SS-N-22 Sunburn missiles as its primary armament while the Udaloy had 8 SS-N-14 Silex missiles. The smaller Krivak frigates had 4 SS-N-14 Silex missile launchers.

    The new Frigates the Russian navy is planning will have at least one and possibly 2 UKSK launchers... the difference is that the UKSK launcher can carry a range of missiles of different purposes and capabilities that exceed the capabilities of Moskit and Silex... note we are talking about Frigates here a Destroyer could be fitted with 3 or 4 UKSK launchers... each capable of carrying 8 missiles each.

    And consider also that estimates about UKSK and Redut launchers in Gorshkov class still vary. Suppose it has 16 UKSK and 32 Redut. For Sovs we had 8xMoskit and 24x SA-N-7. With 1 Gorshkov class we have double firepower

    I still insist that Gorshkov will be a destroyer class concerning his armament. Take a look at French Horizon and British Type 45.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Tue May 01, 2012 12:06 pm

    "Only one hull will be completed. At the same time, the new ocean-going ship under development will combine not only strike capability but also perform missions specific to landing ships,"

    A LSD/LPD ship?

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 01, 2012 12:22 pm

    Depends on what they mean by strike capability.

    It could be two 203mm gun turrets, or Grad/Tornado rocket launchers, or it could be a couple of Ka-52s.

    It is clear they want multirole vessels that are more flexible so they can still do everything they want to do but with a smaller fleet.

    Because of the geographic location of Russia each fleet is pretty much on its own really so each needs to have capable multirole ships because their might not be time to sail something from the Pacific to the Black Sea fleet or vice versa.

    I would think the landing and strike roles could be performed by their Mistrals, but they seem to be working on something else...

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TR1 on Tue May 01, 2012 8:34 pm

    Weird, I was under the impression a second contract for an Ivan Gren vessel.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  TheArmenian on Sun May 13, 2012 10:23 am

    Ivan Grren to be launched on May 18.

    http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/17351/

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Wed May 16, 2012 12:06 am

    Yantar Built RUR 5-bln Landing Ship Ivan Gren for Russian Navy. The ship will be launched on May 18.

    Cost of Project 11711 landing ship Ivan Gren built for Russian Navy by JSC Yantar Shipyard was RUR 5 bln, reports RBK referring to press service of Kaliningrad regional administration. The ship will be launched on May 18.

    Along with Mistral-class amphibious ships being built in France, large landing ship Ivan Gren will form the core of Russian Navy's landing forces, reports the regional administration.

    Large landing ship Ivan Gren was laid down at Yantar in Dec 2004 and was supposed to make the lead ship in the 4-ship series. Through the construction, the Navy three times changed technical specifications; 22 considerable changes were introduced into the project. That resulted in long delays in construction. Up to now, the ship's final technical appearance has not determined yet. Scheduled keel-laying of the first serial ship was canceled.

    The ship is designed for landing operations, transportation of combat vehicles and equipment. Ivan Gren is capable to carry up to 13 main battle tanks, up to 36 armored personnel carriers or infantry fighting vehicles, or a 300-men boarding party.

    http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=15122

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Fri May 18, 2012 4:48 pm

    Russia Floats Out Large Landing Ship

    The Yantar shipyard in the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad floated out on Friday a new large landing ship for the Russian Navy.
    The construction of the Ivan Gren landing ship started in 2004, but has been delayed due to the lack of financing and skilled workers.
    The ship's completion is expected by 2013. Plans to build three more ships of the same class are under consideration.
    The $160-million vessel has a displacement of about 6,000 tons and will be able to carry up to 13 main battle tanks or 36 armored personnel carriers or 300 naval infantry troops.
    Along with Mistral-class amphibious ships being built in France, Ivan Gren class ships will form the core of the Russian Navy's landing forces.

    http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120518/173537305.html

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  GarryB on Sat May 19, 2012 6:27 am

    but has been delayed due to the lack of financing and skilled workers.

    Not really a surprise... up until the end of 2008 most promises of money and investment in the military were just promises, and when the money doesn't arrive for contracts then subcontractors can't be paid and workers stand around doing very little and even if they stay they lose their skills because they are not doing anything.

    The best way to solve that of course is new orders with money being paid on time.

    It should also be pointed out that the first vessel in a new class will always take longer than serial production because everything is new and they have to learn how to put it together efficiently. After doing it the first time they can work out the pace of construction and perhaps make improvements in the process to do it faster or easier or cheaper. Obviously the new vessel also needs to be put in the water and thoroughly tested to make sure it performs as advertised. Problems found at sea need to be traced to their source... the problems understood and solutions found and corrected in the next vessels... a good example is the single class of Lada submarine which had some serious problems with its propulsion, which have been solved and added to with AIP technology added to further improve performance in the Lada-M class.

    I rather suspect that the Ivan Gren will be limited to one vessel because they have decided they only need such a vessel in the Black Sea and one will do. From the sound of their comments they want an ocean going landing ship that is multirole and more flexible, which they might deploy to the Baltic, Black and Pacific fleets as landing craft with better reach and performance.

    If the Assad regime is overthrown in Syria the potential for a replacement port becomes interesting... a base in the Med is useful, but you would want a stable country... perhaps Greece could do with some income, or perhaps Italy? I would expect that Iran might feel a little cornered by Shia countries and might be open to allowing the Russians to have port facilities in Southern Iran in the Persian Gulf in which the Russians could supply across the Caspian Sea and via a land rail route from the north of Iran to a southern port. If there is not one there already they could perhaps get involved in improving for the purpose. Such a thing would be good for Iran and a Russian port in this region would bypass the Suez canal and save the Russian Navy some canal fees.
    Other options in the region include Yemen but there would be no land connection from Russia so supplies would need to be bought locally and munitions and weapons would need to be delivered by boat or air, which is slower and not as cheap as by rail.

    I think it would also promote trade between southern Russia and Iran which should be good for both countries.

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  medo on Sat May 19, 2012 1:04 pm

    Nice to see it in the water. In which fleet Ivan Gren will serve?

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    Re: Project 11711E: "Ivan Gren" class

    Post  George1 on Sat May 19, 2012 2:17 pm

    Βlack Sea Fleet propably.

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