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    EW of F-35 vs russian air defence

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    moskit
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    EW of F-35 vs russian air defence

    Post  moskit on Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:00 am

    An F-35B just carried out a remarkable test where its sensors spotted an airborne target, sent the data to an Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense site, and had the land-based outpost fire a missile to defeat the target — thereby destroying an airborne adversary without firing a single shot of its own. This development simultaneously vindicates two of the US military’s most important developments: The F-35 and the Naval Integrated Fire Control Counterair Network (NIFC-CA).Essentially, the NIFC-CA revolutionizes naval targeting systems by combining data from a huge variety of sensors to generate targeting data that could be used to defeat incoming threats. So now with this development, an F-35 can pass targeting data to the world’s most advanced missile defense system, an Aegis site, that would fire it’s own missile, likely a SM-6, to take out threats in the air, on land, or at sea. This means that an F-35 can stealthily enter heavily contested enemy air space, detect threats, and have them destroyed by a missile fired from a remote site, like an Aegis land site or destroyer, without firing a shot and risking giving up it’s position. The SM-6, the munition of choice for Aegis destroyers, is a 22-foot long supersonic missile that can seek out, maneuver, and destroy airborne targets like enemy jets or incoming cruise or ballistic missiles. The SM-6’s massive size prohibits it from being equipped to fighter jets, but now, thanks to the integration of the F-35 with the NIFC-CA, it doesn’t have to.
    Realistic? Or just another hoax from from the yanks? Please provide a convincing scenario. Thank u russia

    Big_Gazza
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    Re: EW of F-35 vs russian air defence

    Post  Big_Gazza on Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:06 pm

    moskit wrote:An F-35B just carried out a remarkable test where its sensors spotted an airborne target, sent the data to an Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense site, and had the land-based outpost fire a missile to defeat the target — thereby destroying an airborne adversary without firing a single shot of its own. This development simultaneously vindicates two of the US military’s most important developments: The F-35 and the Naval Integrated Fire Control Counterair Network (NIFC-CA).Essentially, the NIFC-CA revolutionizes naval targeting systems by combining data from a huge variety of sensors to generate targeting data that could be used to defeat incoming threats. So now with this development, an F-35 can pass targeting data to the world’s most advanced missile defense system, an Aegis site, that would fire it’s own missile, likely a SM-6, to take out threats in the air, on land, or at sea. This means that an F-35 can stealthily enter heavily contested enemy air space, detect threats, and have them destroyed by a missile fired from a remote site, like an Aegis land site or destroyer, without firing a shot and risking giving up it’s position. The SM-6, the munition of choice for Aegis destroyers, is a 22-foot long supersonic missile that can seek out, maneuver, and destroy airborne targets like enemy jets or incoming cruise or ballistic missiles. The SM-6’s massive size prohibits it from being equipped to fighter jets, but now, thanks to the integration of the F-35 with the NIFC-CA, it doesn’t have to.
    Realistic? Or just another hoax from from the yanks? Please provide a convincing scenario. Thank u russia

    Did this "test" have a reasonable "difficulty level" like a Krashua-4 ECM/ECCM nodes flooding the area and jamming the F-35 and the SM-6 active radar?  Or Nebo VHF AESA radars providing targetting data to long-range fire-and-forget SAMs to suppress stealth aircraft intrusions?

    No?  Didn't think so......

    In reality, Aegis cruisers will be a little busy trying to stay alive from saturation attacks of Oniks and Kalibre AShMs, not to mention torpedos and other heavier Soviet-era beasties like Bazalt & Granit, the kind of weapons where a single hit will obliterate a billion dollar Aegis cruiser and leave a gaping hole in Yankistani capabilities.

    Testing of Yankistani "wonder-weapons" in ideal conditions following a excruciating exact setup with meticulous planning doesn't install any fear into this little black duck.....

    russia

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    Re: EW of F-35 vs russian air defence

    Post  GarryB on Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:50 am

    Russian AWACS aircraft can direct S-400 batteries to targets and control the missiles launched.


    An Su-30 was used to direct an R-37 missile to a target 300km away from a MiG-31 during tests of the R-37 missile. When fully developed the upgraded MiG-31 would have the radar capability to detect and engage the target at that range but during this test the MiG-31 had its old radar and lacked the range to detect and track the target itself. An Su-30 detected the target and passed the target data to the MiG so it could fire its missile and destroy the target without actually seeing it itself.

    PVO aircraft and missile systems are generally used to datalinks like this...


    BTW this sort of target data sharing has nothing to do with EW.

    EW is generally considered Electronic warfare... not early warning.


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    Re: EW of F-35 vs russian air defence

    Post  Flanky on Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:02 pm

    moskit wrote:An F-35B just carried out a remarkable test where its sensors spotted an airborne target, sent the data to an Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense site, and had the land-based outpost fire a missile to defeat the target — thereby destroying an airborne adversary without firing a single shot of its own. This development simultaneously vindicates two of the US military’s most important developments: The F-35 and the Naval Integrated Fire Control Counterair Network (NIFC-CA).Essentially, the NIFC-CA revolutionizes naval targeting systems by combining data from a huge variety of sensors to generate targeting data that could be used to defeat incoming threats. So now with this development, an F-35 can pass targeting data to the world’s most advanced missile defense system, an Aegis site, that would fire it’s own missile, likely a SM-6, to take out threats in the air, on land, or at sea. This means that an F-35 can stealthily enter heavily contested enemy air space, detect threats, and have them destroyed by a missile fired from a remote site, like an Aegis land site or destroyer, without firing a shot and risking giving up it’s position. The SM-6, the munition of choice for Aegis destroyers, is a 22-foot long supersonic missile that can seek out, maneuver, and destroy airborne targets like enemy jets or incoming cruise or ballistic missiles. The SM-6’s massive size prohibits it from being equipped to fighter jets, but now, thanks to the integration of the F-35 with the NIFC-CA, it doesn’t have to.
    Realistic? Or just another hoax from from the yanks? Please provide a convincing scenario. Thank u russia
    I would argue that the F-35 using active sensor like radar would still remain "hidden"...
    Russians have lots of passive aircraft detection systems like the old Kolchuga system that works by detecting RF emissions.
    So the entire idea of detecting a target actively and aiding a differrent unit in the attack of that target would make sense if one can detect the target in a passive mode, not in active mode like Radar...

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    Re: EW of F-35 vs russian air defence

    Post  Singular_trafo on Fri Sep 16, 2016 5:51 pm

    moskit wrote:An F-35B just carried out a remarkable test where its sensors spotted an airborne target, sent the data to an Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense site, and had the land-based outpost fire a missile to defeat the target — thereby destroying an airborne adversary without firing a single shot of its own. This development simultaneously vindicates two of the US military’s most important developments: The F-35 and the Naval Integrated Fire Control Counterair Network (NIFC-CA).Essentially, the NIFC-CA revolutionizes naval targeting systems by combining data from a huge variety of sensors to generate targeting data that could be used to defeat incoming threats. So now with this development, an F-35 can pass targeting data to the world’s most advanced missile defense system, an Aegis site, that would fire it’s own missile, likely a SM-6, to take out threats in the air, on land, or at sea. This means that an F-35 can stealthily enter heavily contested enemy air space, detect threats, and have them destroyed by a missile fired from a remote site, like an Aegis land site or destroyer, without firing a shot and risking giving up it’s position. The SM-6, the munition of choice for Aegis destroyers, is a 22-foot long supersonic missile that can seek out, maneuver, and destroy airborne targets like enemy jets or incoming cruise or ballistic missiles. The SM-6’s massive size prohibits it from being equipped to fighter jets, but now, thanks to the integration of the F-35 with the NIFC-CA, it doesn’t have to.
    Realistic? Or just another hoax from from the yanks? Please provide a convincing scenario. Thank u russia

    It is marketing .

    The SM-6 long range active radar homing rocket, so if you specify the target coordinates by 10-50 km precision then it will found the target.

    It means that if the pilot simply tell the target coordinates over the radio it still good enough to launch the rocket.
    So the data link is nice, and saving valuable pilot time, but not neccesary.


    And the grippen/mig 31 has similar capabilities Smile

    And the f-35 will be not so stealth, so any other airplane can do this job.

    hoom
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    Re: EW of F-35 vs russian air defence

    Post  hoom on Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:57 am

    Well I was reading an interesting thing about F-35 issues the other day (annoyingly I can't seem to find it again :-/ was an official report to Congress or something & definitely after last months' IOC announcement):
    Among various other significant issues they have a really major one where not only do different sensors on the same aircraft produce multiple separate tracks for the same target, it's exponentially multiplied when offboard sensors are linked in & the only way they can 'pass' tests is by disabling multiple sensors & careful scenario building.

    The gist was that while stuff like gun software have fairly solid (but incredibly long) planned timeline for fixes, this massive Sensor Fusion issue hasn't even got any kind of timeline for a fix.

    Another issue but not gone into detail was that onboard ECM/Jammer was 'not able to deal with known threats' ie presumably Russian (could also mean EU/China stuff) & the current revision lacks any kind of standoff weapon -> is incapable of SEAD missions.

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    Re: EW of F-35 vs russian air defence

    Post  kvs on Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:34 pm

    http://russia-insider.com/en/usaf-general-says-f-35-will-beat-russians-invisible-muhamed-ali-if-it-can-climb-ring/ri16628

    Trash talk from USAF general. This just confirms that the F-35 is a POS.

    hoom
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    Re: EW of F-35 vs russian air defence

    Post  hoom on Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:27 am

    Cool, re-found the report I was looking for via a link off that article
    https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3035572-DOT-amp-E-AF-IOC-Memo.html
    Worth a read.

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    Re: EW of F-35 vs russian air defence

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:39 am

    hoom wrote:Cool, re-found the report I was looking for via a link off that article
    https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/3035572-DOT-amp-E-AF-IOC-Memo.html
    Worth a read.

    Jesus, talk about a damning report.
    This thing is without question a flying coffin, EW that ain't all that, Fuel guzzling while already small fuel capacity, sensor fusion that just creates errors, DAS that can't mark friend or foe, constant AWACS support needed and a gun that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

    Honestly, i wouldn't be surprised if all this sh#t gets cancelled and they ask Apple to make a better 5th gen fighter for them.

    hoom
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    Re: EW of F-35 vs russian air defence

    Post  hoom on Sun Sep 25, 2016 9:22 am

    a gun that couldn't hit the broad side of a barn
    The truly bizzare thing is that apparently nobody thought that just maybe when you open the flaps over the gun it might affect airflow.
    Thats not 'oh things didn't quite work out as they were supposed to' like a bunch of the issues with F-35, its unthinkable gross incompetence confused

    In addition, flight sciences testing of the F-35A recently revealed that the small doors that open when the gun shoots induce a yaw (i.e. sideslip), resulting in gun aiming errors that exceed accuracy specifications.
    As a result, additional software changes to the flight control laws, very late in the flight test program, may be needed to cancel out the yaw when the gun doors are open.
    ...
    The most recent program office schedule estimates that gun modifications will not be completed on the OT&E aircraft until 2020.

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