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    Promising Naval Helicopter "Minoga" (Lamprey)

    GunshipDemocracy
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    Post  GunshipDemocracy on Thu Jul 04, 2019 2:52 pm

    GarryB wrote:The Russian Army uses them, and because they could operate from a range of ships I would think they would still use them, though not in enormous numbers.

    India seems to like them...

    Certainly operating above any ship giving that ship a radar view of the surrounding area down to sea level out to 250km is still actually useful... a helicopter carrier could benefit from such support if it is operating with a fixed wing carrier or the Kuznetsov, which wont be able to operate AWACS aircraft without a catapult system.

    I hope they either do catapult or aricraft STOL enough to raise with skijump only. OR 2 seat AEW fighter? similar to currently used 29k
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 05, 2019 2:04 am

    The problem there is optimisation... a fighter is not optimised for very long endurance, and the aircraft that are like the Su-34 is too big and heavy to operate without the same catapult that could also launch a more suitable design.

    If they could manage an aerial design integrated into the top wing but keep the high lift shape and high lift devices they could probably use that new model of the An-2... it would be able to operate from the Kuznetsov... hell it could operate from a Mistral or Kiev... its stall speed is something like 80km/h and even then it doesn't actually stall... if you pull the stick back hard and hold it and throttle down to idle it just slowly sinks to the ground... no stall at all...

    In fact I remember an old Soviet fighter design that was a biplane on the ground but when the plane took off and the wheels folded up the lower wing folded up into the upper wing to create a monoplane fighter... it had high lift low wing loading for takeoff and landing, but relatively small wing area for high speed flight and manouvering...

    They are clever chaps over there, I am sure they will get it right.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:02 pm


    Doubt it's official but posting anyway

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    Post  GarryB on Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:10 am

    Yeah, I am not seeing anything revolutionary that would make this design any better than the Ka-27.

    Remember it took the west a few years to realise the Ka-27 was a new design simply because it was just an enlarged Ka-25 with more powerful engines and much better performance.

    Any replacement is going to need a pusher propulsion system to gain much better speed or a different shape for better internal volume and low drag or something rather special to make it worth producing in large numbers to replace all the Ka-27 family aircraft...
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:02 am


    Larger size, bigger cabin, superior layout and that's just what we can see from preview images

    Ka-27 is way past obsolete

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    Post  archangelski on Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:57 am

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Doubt it's official but posting anyway

    If it really looks like that, I'm really disappointed ...
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    Post  hoom on Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:35 am

    Looks kinda like a Kamovised Mi-38.
    Not great, not terrible dunno


    Modern composite airframe & rotors, new gen engines can be a big improvement over Ka-27 without needing to be a fully exotic design.
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    Post  Regular on Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:05 pm

    PapaDragon wrote:
    Larger size, bigger cabin, superior layout and that's just what we can see from preview images

    Ka-27 is way past obsolete


    Ka-27 has it's use. I would say it's one of the most commercially successful Kamov helicopters.
    It's operating cost and size is what drove the sales.
    Now it means Russia is not concerned about operation cost and want more capable helicopter.
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    Post  Isos on Sun Jul 07, 2019 6:22 pm

    Ka-27 is big enough to put anything you want inside it. So it is not that obsolete.

    They have plenty of them and the most probable scenario is that they upgrade many of them and buy small amount of new gen heli for newest ships like Gorshkov.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:23 pm

    Isos wrote:Ka-27 is big enough to put anything you want inside it. So it is not that obsolete.

    They have plenty of them and the most probable scenario is that they upgrade many of them and buy small amount of new gen heli for newest ships like Gorshkov.


    Why move forward when you can scrape along on past trash?

    So speed, payload, range, endurance, cargo ramp, internal space are all irelevant as long as they have something that can stay in the air and look borderline useful?

    Why bother with Su-57, Gorshkov, T-14 and all that other stuff when MiG-21, Grisha and T-64 can be upgraded?

    Why even waste money on that "small amount of new gen"?



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    Post  Isos on Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:35 pm


    So speed, payload, range, endurance, cargo ramp, internal space are all irelevant as long as they have something that can stay in the air and look borderline useful?

    Why bother with Su-57, Gorshkov, T-14 and all that other stuff when MiG-21 su-27, Grisha and T-64 can be upgraded?

    Why even waste money on that "small amount of new gen"?

    That's exactly what they are doing.

    It's not wasting money, they can't replace all the older stuff with new ones. If they spend all the money on new stuff they would end up with a very modern army but a very small one too. The actual fleet of ka-27 is already small and they have hard times buying new ones, with a more expensive helicopter it will be even harder.

    Ka-27 has a very good speed, payload, range, endurance, cargo ramp, internal space ... with new engines it could do just as good as the new helicopters. Don't forget that it was created for soviet navy needs which were bigger than Russian needs so they should be very happy with it. It's similar case with the mi-8 which was a very good chopper. Wheb Russia needed something new they created the mi-17 which is a new chopper but on the design of mi-8 which make exploitation very easy.

    Moreover speed isn't a factor for ASW.


    Last edited by Isos on Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post  PapaDragon on Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:37 pm


    It doesn't have a cargo ramp, you can't put anything inside it larger than a person

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    Post  hoom on Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:10 am

    If that airframe isn't shaped for a ramp I dunno what is.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:53 am

    Larger size, bigger cabin, superior layout and that's just what we can see from preview images

    But that model doesn't look like it has a bigger cabin and so the layout is the same with a slightly different tail fin configuration... in fact I would say that model is smaller than a Ka-27.

    Ka-27 is way past obsolete

    Have never heard any complaints about Kamovs to be honest...

    Looks kinda like a Kamovised Mi-38.

    The Mi-38 is way bigger... this model looks smaller than current Ka-27 models.

    Modern composite airframe & rotors, new gen engines can be a big improvement over Ka-27 without needing to be a fully exotic design.

    The Helix already has composite rotors and new engines... I rather suspect the replacement for the Ka-27 will be slightly bigger but with more streamlined aerodynamics for higher speed flight.

    Why move forward when you can scrape along on past trash?

    Why spend vast amounts of money on a brand new pen when existing models already do a good job.

    If the older aircraft were rubbish there would be much more focus on their replacement...

    So speed, payload, range, endurance, cargo ramp, internal space are all irelevant as long as they have something that can stay in the air and look borderline useful?

    The speed range payload endurance and internal space of the Helix family are already much better than the aircraft they replaced and compare rather well to foreign models... their coaxial rotor makes them easy to fly and much safer on deck than any design with a tail rotor design.

    Why bother with Su-57, Gorshkov, T-14 and all that other stuff when MiG-21, Grisha and T-64 can be upgraded?

    They don't have unlimited amounts of money and resources so it makes sense to replace things that NEED replacing first and the Helix already does a good job so the replacement for it is not overly urgent... it is being worked on but hardly a priority.

    It doesn't have a cargo ramp, you can't put anything inside it larger than a person

    It is a SAR, plus an AEW, plus a troop transport, plus in on version it was used for long range guidance of very long range anti ship missiles... WTF would they need a cargo ramp for?

    If that airframe isn't shaped for a ramp I dunno what is.

    If they wanted a ramp they could easily have had one.

    If they make the replacement bigger... it wont fit on any of their existing ships because they were all designed for Helix based helos or smaller.
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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:55 am

    GarryB wrote:

    If they wanted a ramp they could easily have had one.

    If they make the replacement bigger... it wont fit on any of their existing ships because they were all designed for Helix based helos or smaller.

    It is possible that they will keep 3 sizes of naval utility helicopters: smaller scale: ka-226, medium side the modernised ka-27 family and finally bigger size the new one
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:55 pm

    It is possible that they will keep 3 sizes of naval utility helicopters: smaller scale: ka-226, medium side the modernised ka-27 family and finally bigger size the new one

    All their lifts and extendible hangar designs for helicopters are sized for the Ka-27 sized helos... bigger helos wont fit their existing ships.

    My understanding is that the new types are to replace the Ka-27 family so they will probably have the same external dimensions... they will probably have more powerful engines and perhaps new main rotors that allow higher cruise speeds and perhaps some form of pusher propeller too, though a tail mounted rotor is more harm than good because on a ship deck the last thing you want is a tail mounted bladed system to kill or maim crew on deck... the whole brilliance of coaxial rotor design was eliminating that swinging death trap called a tail rotor.

    A more aerodynamic shape for most models and perhaps efficient air to ground armament for the Ka-29 replacement and perhaps a more compact and efficient tail structure is about the best they could do really... and perhaps lighter stronger structure weight...

    Even then it is not urgent... the Ka-226 looks rather interesting and can operate in larger numbers and on smaller vessels, and of course an unmanned helicopter design will also be very useful as well for various roles...

    In Afghanistan they found the Mi-8 was vastly superior for landing troops because with three doors... either side and the rear ramp, the troops could get in or out faster than with just side doors like the Mi-24, but considering the design... a box with a large tail tacked on the back... there would be little reason why a rear ramp could not be added to the Ka-29 let alone an upgraded model.

    The key was keep the amount of time sitting still on the ground to a bare minimum because the fire power of the aircraft was useless at that point and it was vulnerable to enemy attack during those seconds.

    The Hind had better armour protection but took longer to load and unload.
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    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:37 pm

    If we look at an actual news article regarding the new design:
    MOSCOW, July 3. /TASS/. The Russian Helicopters holding has completed a detail design of the advanced ship-based helicopter for the Russian Navy, codenamed ‘Minoga,’ CEO Andrey Boginsky has told TASS.

    "Our job has been accepted," he said. "Together with the Defense Ministry, we now continue drafting a statement of work for the next stage, for the stage of experimental design."

    In May 2018, Boginsky said that the detail design of the project was scheduled for completion in the first quarter of 2019.

    As was reported earlier, work has been launched to develop a fast-speed helicopter for the Industry and Trade Ministry and the Defense Ministry of Russia. Then-Commander-in-Chief of Russia’s Aerospace Force Viktor Bondarev noted at the time that the helicopter was being developed for the Russian Defense Ministry, would enter its serial production from 2022 and would be able to develop a speed of up to 500 km/h.

    The Russian Navy is to receive several modifications of the prospective seaborne Minoga helicopter, including airborne assault one, a defense industry source told TASS on the sidelines of the Army-2016 defense forum.

    The chief designer of the Kamov design bureau (part of the Russian Helicopters), Sergei Mikheyev, earlier told TASS that an unmanned version of the rotorcraft may be created if necessary.

    So they want a 500km/h helicopter that includes replacing naval helos like the Ka-29, so new rotors and a pusher system and a more aerodynamic design, in serial production by 2022 is a bit short notice to expect brand new engines other than the new models for the land based helos (Mi-28NM)...

    source: https://tass.com/defense/1066825
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    Post  Cyberspec on Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:42 am

    Ka-65....will be adapted for service in the Arctic...and you can see what it looks like apparently

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    Post  George1 on Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:34 pm

    so it will not fully replace Ka-27?
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    Post  SeigSoloyvov on Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:08 pm

    No doesn't look like it will.
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    Post  PapaDragon on Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:27 pm

    Cyberspec wrote:Ka-65....will be adapted for service in the Arctic...and you can see what it looks like apparently

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    Nope, it doesn't look like that, it's a drawing of ancient late Soviet concept/fanart model

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    Post  Rodion_Romanovic on Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:47 pm

    George1 wrote:so it will not fully replace Ka-27?

    From what I understand there will be ALSO an artic version.

    In addition, they mention that it will be capable to operate from admiral grigorovic and admiral gorshkov, so the ka-65 must fit in the Ka-27 hangar.

    Anyways, they are modernising the Ka-27 family, so it is possible that Ka-27 and Ka-65 will stay in service together for a while. Afterall, if they work well and they are good maintained it would be a waste to scrap or retire the ka-27 before they reach their retirement age.
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    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:53 am

    Not sure what you guys were expecting, but that pretty much ticks most of the boxes.

    That drawing is old... I remember seeing it in the 1990s... they have not decided this year to replace the Helix, this plan has been on the books for decades, but very simply the new design needs a new engine so even if the design was complete in the 1990s it will still have to wait for the new engines to power it to be ready.

    As I suggested... more aerodynamic front but similar overall size to the Helix so it can operate on the same landing spots and be stored in the same hangars... which on some ships are tiny with very little space around the Helix.

    It appears to be amphibious, and the shape of the tail seems to suggest a ramp rear door, which is probably the main improvement they needed.

    No extra propulsion on the model or drawing, but lets wait to see the prototype first... it might have been a late addition and late requirement...

    Any sort of tail mounted pusher propeller would likely only be used in forward flight because of the danger presented by spinning blades on the tail of a helicopter on the deck of a ship or landing pad.

    My understanding is that this new aircraft is a direct replacement for the Helix and will replace it, and it is optimised for arctic use.

    Of course the Helix is fine for many roles, but I suspect the Ka-29 replacement will get priority and perhaps the SAR models will also get priority because they will be useful first in arctic regions where SAR and infantry training would be useful...

    I suspect they will shift the Helix aircraft to other duties as they are still excellent performers in many areas.

    Note it was probably their focus on operations in the arctic and far east that led to them pushing forward with this design because helicopters optimised for arctic use obviously perform much better than helicopters that are not. Being Soviet helos the Mi-8 and Ka-27 don't fall apart in the arctic conditions, but are not really designed to operate there full time so there was a cold weather model of the Hip developed for the arctic and far east (not just cold but also rudmentary tools and spares) and this aircraft will serve the navy.

    I suspect if they put the Mi-14 back in to production or develop an upgrade it will also be optimised for cold weather too.

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