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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

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    AlfaT8
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:25 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:You need real high energy output in order to jam newer radars.  Take a look how Russia tried to jam the S-300 radar systems of old.  They were supposedly only ones successful in it and they used an Il-76 modified in EW mode. According to Militarov, they managed to jam themselves (aircraft) so it isn't an effective system.  Ground systems have easier access to high amounts of energy over flying objects.  All in all, having little missiles to jam a radar is rather stupid and expensive system over just simply sustain fire on a position with anti-radiation missiles or other guided munitions.

    US bought 1500 of these missiles for half billion $, so they has to know what they want to do with them .


    You don't need to disable the radar.All that you want to do it hide part of the sky from it.

    The U.S isn't always aware of what they want to do (F-35), they are taking a gamble.

    Yea, about that, the best way to hide is with stealth, with jamming it's a whole other ball game, you are basically telling everyone you are here, the question is will your jamming/decoy be good enough to prevent them from hitting you.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:18 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:You need real high energy output in order to jam newer radars.  Take a look how Russia tried to jam the S-300 radar systems of old.  They were supposedly only ones successful in it and they used an Il-76 modified in EW mode. According to Militarov, they managed to jam themselves (aircraft) so it isn't an effective system.  Ground systems have easier access to high amounts of energy over flying objects.  All in all, having little missiles to jam a radar is rather stupid and expensive system over just simply sustain fire on a position with anti-radiation missiles or other guided munitions.

    US bought 1500 of these missiles for half billion $, so they has to know what they want to do with them .


    You don't need to disable the radar.All that you want to do it hide part of the sky from it.

    And you are aware that there are ECM/ECCM and EW systems at SAM sites in Russia, right? There was a good video about it. US can invest in whatever it wants, but as we all know, usually it ends up as an expensive waste of money (F-35 is perfect example). As well, there are passive systems available that will be watching/listening and they also pose as a problem. This goes for both sides of the fence - Russia and US.

    In the end, the much cheaper solution is salvo launches.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  max steel on Fri Jun 10, 2016 10:22 pm

    Did you guys read my post above or not Suspect I'm waiting for your responses.



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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  sepheronx on Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:52 pm

    What is there to read about it? There are multitude of radars and subsystems meant for detecting and tracking stealth targets. Most stealth units such as F-22 and B-2 are stealthy in X-band radar. Even then, they also release infrared signature and as well as signals like radar and communication (any kind of radiation) that sensors/subsystems/passive systems will be able to pick up at great distances and with high accuracy. Modern UHF and VHF are quite accurate with its detections and tracking. As example was the detection and tracking of Israeli launched BM.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  max steel on Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:13 am

    I want to start a discussion ( maybe a new thread can be made) plus I've my own doubts also F22 could potentially be flying into Satellite denial environment. Not so sure comms are going to just work fine under enemy airspace. Again, not easy like Without GPS navigation how to fly deep strike missions( by F-22 and B-2) into opponent territory ?


    Is it correct that the moment the F22 turns on her radar it is game over ?


    When F-22 or B-2 opens it weapons bay can it be detected then ?

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Isos on Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:26 am

    max steel wrote:

    Is it correct that the moment the F22 turns on her radar it is game over ?


    When F-22 or B-2 opens it weapons bay can it be detected then ?

    1) It depends on the technology you have. Its radar have low probality of interception.

    2) If it's a ground radar : yes cf f-117 shoot by serbs with weapons bay opened
    If it's an airborn radar flying higher It won't change the situation

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:48 am

    From what I see with these US programs is that they are inept at grasping the simple fact that they will not be facing S-300V/S-400/S-500 or Buk-M3 or Tor-M2 or even Sukhois and MiGs. They will be facing a combination of all of the above including Russia's own EW hardware. A layered Russian IADS is something the US currently does not have an inventory to deal with, and coming up with new proposals that deal with only single components of a huge and complex system is not an effective way for them to tackle it.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  sepheronx on Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:21 am

    Thats the thing. Russia has multitude of systems at its disposal to deal with major threats.

    Tor and Pantsir to deal with PGM's and UAV's, helicopters, and low flying planes. Buk and early S-300 systems to deal with medium range and altitude targets like planes and cruise missiles, S-400 and S-300V4 for dealing with longer range targets and high altitude like short/med range ballistic missiles and high targeted aircrafts. Then there is of course MiG-31's and Su-27/Su-35's to deal with threats too. So it will never be a 1 to 1 match, on both sides.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:40 am

    sepheronx wrote:Thats the thing.  Russia has multitude of systems at its disposal to deal with major threats.

    Tor and Pantsir to deal with PGM's and UAV's, helicopters, and low flying planes.  Buk and early S-300 systems to deal with medium range and altitude targets like planes and cruise missiles, S-400 and S-300V4 for dealing with longer range targets and high altitude like short/med range ballistic missiles and high targeted aircrafts.  Then there is of course MiG-31's and Su-27/Su-35's to deal with threats too.  So it will never be a 1 to 1 match, on both sides.
    There was an LM video recently of them demonstrating how they'd take out the S-400 system by using a combination of C-17 launched signature generating UAVs followed by a simultaneous attack of real aircraft/PGMs, hoping to overwhelm/exhaust the S-400 with fake targets while the real threats did all the work. But the issue was that  it offered an ideal situation where the S-400 was all alone with no SHORAD protection or interceptor cover, let alone Krasuha-4 or Richag-AV etc.

    Given that Nebo-M can apparently track things with the RCS of a tennis ball at huge ranges I wonder how easy it would be for it to ID the C-17s and hence the drones as they were launched and subsequently task the system with ignoring them... bit of a gamble if you ask me.

    EDIT: I feel like I saw the video here. Can't find it though.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  KiloGolf on Sat Jun 11, 2016 3:54 am

    OminousSpudd wrote:Given that Nebo-M can apparently track things with the RCS of a tennis ball at huge ranges I wonder how easy it would be for it to ID the C-17s and hence the drones as they were launched and subsequently task the system with ignoring them... bit of a gamble if you ask me.

    EDIT: I feel like I saw the video here. Can't find it though.

    Is Nebo-M operational in Russia? Any idea on numbers/deployment?
    Is every S-300/400 regiment expected to have it?

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  AlfaT8 on Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:12 am

    OminousSpudd wrote:There was an LM video recently of them demonstrating how they'd take out the S-400 system by using a combination of C-17 launched signature generating UAVs followed by a simultaneous attack of real aircraft/PGMs, hoping to overwhelm/exhaust the S-400 with fake targets while the real threats did all the work. But the issue was that  it offered an ideal situation where the S-400 was all alone with no SHORAD protection or interceptor cover, let alone Krasuha-4 or Richag-AV etc.

    Given that Nebo-M can apparently track things with the RCS of a tennis ball at huge ranges I wonder how easy it would be for it to ID the C-17s and hence the drones as they were launched and subsequently task the system with ignoring them... bit of a gamble if you ask me.

    EDIT: I feel like I saw the video here. Can't find it though.

    I know that one, couldn't find it either, but this is the closest one.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  OminousSpudd on Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:33 am

    AlfaT8 wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:There was an LM video recently of them demonstrating how they'd take out the S-400 system by using a combination of C-17 launched signature generating UAVs followed by a simultaneous attack of real aircraft/PGMs, hoping to overwhelm/exhaust the S-400 with fake targets while the real threats did all the work. But the issue was that  it offered an ideal situation where the S-400 was all alone with no SHORAD protection or interceptor cover, let alone Krasuha-4 or Richag-AV etc.

    Given that Nebo-M can apparently track things with the RCS of a tennis ball at huge ranges I wonder how easy it would be for it to ID the C-17s and hence the drones as they were launched and subsequently task the system with ignoring them... bit of a gamble if you ask me.

    EDIT: I feel like I saw the video here. Can't find it though.

    I know that one, couldn't find it either, but this is the closest one.

    Ah cheers man, pretty sure that's the one. I thought it was Lockheed-Martin rather than Raytheon, probably why I couldn't find it.

    KiloGolf wrote:
    OminousSpudd wrote:Given that Nebo-M can apparently track things with the RCS of a tennis ball at huge ranges I wonder how easy it would be for it to ID the C-17s and hence the drones as they were launched and subsequently task the system with ignoring them... bit of a gamble if you ask me.

    EDIT: I feel like I saw the video here. Can't find it though.

    Is Nebo-M operational in Russia? Any idea on numbers/deployment?
    Is every S-300/400 regiment expected to have it?
    I thought Nebo-M was already deployed with a few S-400 regiments...? Idk though, I'm a bit of an ignoramus, maybe someone else can answer this?


    Last edited by OminousSpudd on Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:43 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jun 11, 2016 12:06 pm

    [quote="OminousSpudd"]
    sepheronx wrote:Thats the thing.  Russia has multitude of systems at its disposal to deal with major threats.


    There was an LM video recently of them demonstrating how they'd take out the S-400 system by using a combination of C-17 launched signature generating UAVs followed by a simultaneous attack of real aircraft/PGMs, hoping to overwhelm/exhaust the S-400 with fake targets while the real threats did all the work. But the issue was that  it offered an ideal situation where the S-400 was all alone with no SHORAD protection or interceptor cover, let alone Krasuha-4 or Richag-AV etc.

    Given that Nebo-M can apparently track things with the RCS of a tennis ball at huge ranges I wonder how easy it would be for it to ID the C-17s and hence the drones as they were launched and subsequently task the system with ignoring them... bit of a gamble if you ask me.

    EDIT: I feel like I saw the video here. Can't find it though.


    Oh yeah.. saw that video..
    But the video have many major flaws..

    The major one is that 1)the decoys ,that Americans plans to use ,to overwhelm S-400 missiles
    if they do it correctly ,and Russia sensors not , it also works both ways. This means that S-400s
    defenses can also use decoys to fool missiles trying to destroy it. this is pretty basic technology and pretty effective. it will confuse the real target of any anti radiation missile. seeking to destroy an S-400 target.  Another one is that 2) S-400s will never work alone ,there will be pantsirs with infrared optics destroying any missile moving in the direction of the s-400. it will not care about decoys , it will hit the real missile ,because decoys do not travel with precision hundreds of miles towards the target it wants to destroy , it only works around the plane it wants to protect. So the real missile will be intercepted by a network of pantsirs or Tors defenses.  3) It also Ignores the range of those anti radiation missiles.vs range or S-400s. So a plane trying to target in Russia an S-400 ,will have to go 100km to 150km close to the air defense first. While the S-400 can target not only the missile ,but also the plane who launched it ,and the AWAC that is guiding the missile all the way to 400km away. So it will be a real nightmare how to get close to an S-400 in a place like Russia main land. because a network of many other defenses will have to bypassed first that are even more deadlier. NATO airforce will have to literary fly over pantsirs and Tors positions where it will be an easy target. Cannot fly very high because will be visible to any radar ,and if fly very low will be easy target to manpads or regular air defenses. so doomed either way.

    4)Finally and not least. It totally ignores the Russia Airforce that will be alerted of any hostile plane getting close to its borders. So the video totally ignores the range of the missile is shorter
    than the range of S-400 ,so the plane launching the missile will be on target range for Russia air defenses and Russia airforce too first. and when it get close to the borders it will be at range of pantsirs and tors. good luck with that. only an ISIS or Alqaeda pilot who wants to die ,will be so foolish to try to defeat an S-400 with a plane.

    and if all that was not difficult enough.
    5)NATO will need to deal with Russia counter electronics defenses. that not only will overwhelm
    the signals the missile receive for corrections ,so will lose communications with any AWAC, or cargo plane. but also it have been said Russia can jam GPS navigation. Look how easy US airforce lost one of its best stealth planes to IRAN ,using just soviet generation of counter electronics provided by Russia.

    To target an S-400 you will need a ballistic missile like ISkander or upgraded Toschka . flying in near earth-space lower orbit will move away of any jamming bubble. and it will do a 90 degree turn over the head of any target it wants to destroy ,and will be guided by satellites almost close to the last 10 seconds it impact. cruise missile highly resistant to jamming could do it too. but no idea how good  are kalibrs missiles defeating counter electronics. Always the advantage will be to Ground radars and Ground jamming over the electronics inside a small warhead in a missile. also another thing that can do the job is lazer guided long range artillery. that only Russia have. But you will need special forces inside enemy territory ,and withing visual distance of the air defense system to guide it.

    All things said. it seems the most advanced are the jamming and counter defenses ,the less effective airforce will be in beyond visual range. this is truth for NATO and for Russia too. and it will go down to visual fights ,and visual bombing either stealth planes that enters very fast and leave ,flying hugging terrain and hope no pantsir or no manpads anywhere there. or long range lazer precision artillery. long range rocket artillery can be very effective too ,or ballistic attacks.
    that was was disable Georgia air defenses. Toschka and Iskanders.

    None of this NATO scenarios are realistic. Even if Russia did not had any air defense at all and all its had was thousands of nuclear missiles. it cannot happen. because it did not take into account ,that if NATO bombs Russia , then Russia will have full freedom to retaliate and pick a target that will truly hurt. , lets say NATO destroy a weapons storage depot in Russia with a missile killing a dozen of soldiers. then Russia can retaliate sinking a warship with hundreds of sailors or a submarine that is more costly. So the deterrence of the retaliation ,what will come next is never used in any defense industry video.

    and all this pentagon simulations are only about a first strike surprise attack.and do not have a follow up strategy ,what will happen next ? after NATO attacks a military base in Russia? thats the question that will collapse any strategy or simulation ,unless they are ready to start a full scale war with Russia and risk it goes nuclear.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  rambo54 on Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:43 am

    As usual the delivery of new S-400 come into effect not before the second half of a year.
    End of last year the figure stood at 11 RGT and 5 more were announced for 2016.
    My personal counting for May 2016 was 12 RGT (4 Moscow, 1 Murmansk, 1 Kaliningrad, 1 St.Petersburg, 1 Novorossisk, 1 Novosibirsk, 1 Kamchatka, 1 Nachodka, 1 Vladivostok).
    But I have to reduce two of them.
    First:
    1533rd
    The latest google earth imagery reveal Pantsyr detachment over here  43.024096° 131.788040° (best image is from 25.3.16: 5 launcher, 3 loader). But the nearby S-300PS didn't change.
    This is also for the second site of the RGT 43.130167° 132.040857° (the coordinates are for the CIA because they wouldn't have it without me).
    And this is confirmed by media: http://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12079357@egNews
    Obviously they will get their S-400 only in the second half of the year.
    On the other hand there is indeed already a small deployment of S-400 over here 43.358160° 131.863564°. The history layer reveals that it was a former S-300PS and then a S-300V site.
    There are 4 5P85S2, 96L6 & 92N6. I don't know whether they serve as 3rd Batt (= Div) of the 1533 or as an independent unit. Strange.

    Second:
    The St.Petersburg deployment seems to be still pending.
    I know that some refer to warfare.be, but this fine page make (as we all) mistakes too. A year ago they identify the 1489 RGT at Vaganovo for S-400. This is not the case. They still have S-300PS at one site.
    Now they claim this for 500 RGT. This RGT (often assigned to the village of Gostilizy, which has just a small and unimpressive logistic park over here 59.741570°29.573464°) has two deployment sites each with an unusual large number of PM launchers. At each site 24 launchers obviously devided into 2 Batt (=Div) at each site.
    I've got photos from both sites made in March 2016 still showing no S-400 equipment. Maybe they will got their equipment in the second half of the year too. But maybe the S-400 will go to another RGT. 1488 (northwest of St.Petersburg) shoot down two of it's sites meanwhile (waiting for new equipment?).

    If deployment at these two areas happened that would bring the number of RGT to 12!

    I'm curious where the other 4 RGT announced for 2016 will go to bring the grand total to 16 RGT.
    Locations were named (e.g. Tiksi, Novaja Semelya) but the latter meanwhile got PM not S-400.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  franco on Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:25 pm

    Did notice the other day that the new Regiment at Abakan is the 170th according to the Warfare people.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Viktor on Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:47 pm

    Singular_trafo wrote:

    It is a bit more complicated than that.


    The strenght of  electromagnetic field and the distance has quadratic relationship, means if you decrease the distance to the third then you need one magnitude less power to has the same signal strenght.

    So, if you have a cheap (million dollar range) jammer, then you can affor do send it next to the radar,and there the operator either shoot down the cheap drone, or they can't see part of the sky.


    Other side, if a B-2 going into russia then it can carry twnety of these jammers, dispersing them on the way like candy , blinding out the radars.

    The only protection against this kind of jamming (or as matter of face agains any kind of jamming) is if you use multiple radar,overlapping each others.

    Main problem is finding targets to blinde or shoot at. To do that you need intelligence and to gather information you need to be close to protected airspace and no one has

    100 intelligence gathering aircraft Very Happy

    sepheronx wrote:You need real high energy output in order to jam newer radars.  Take a look how Russia tried to jam the S-300 radar systems of old.  They were supposedly only ones successful in it and they used an Il-76 modified in EW mode. According to Militarov, they managed to jam themselves (aircraft) so it isn't an effective system.  Ground systems have easier access to high amounts of energy over flying objects.  All in all, having little missiles to jam a radar is rather stupid and expensive system over just simply sustain fire on a position with anti-radiation missiles or other guided munitions.

    Like before. You need to know where to jamm. Succesfully get close to it and than burn throw Russsian engagement radar sets dispersed throughout out wide area, jam throughout
    Russian ECCM also and fend of airdefense aviation Very Happy still avoiding Russian ground decoys Very Happy

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  franco on Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:24 pm

    Is Nebo-M operational in Russia? Any idea on numbers/deployment?
    Is every S-300/400 regiment expected to have it?



    Nebo-M are operational with Radar regiments not SAM regiments.
    Plans were for 90-100 by end of 2020.
    Believe first unit delivered in 2013 with a dozen or so operational so far.

    EDIT: according to militaryrussia.ru first unit(s) in 2013, 6 delivered in 2014 and supposed to be 10 in 2015.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  max steel on Mon Jun 13, 2016 2:46 pm

    Isos wrote:
    Is it correct that the moment the F22 turns on her radar it is game over ?


    When F-22 or B-2 opens it weapons bay can it be detected then ?

    1) It depends on the technology you have. Its radar have low probality of interception.

    2) If it's a ground radar : yes cf f-117 shoot by serbs with weapons bay opened
       If it's an airborne radar flying higher It won't change the situation

    Thanks. So my first guess is completely wrong and my second guess is correct. Funny China's KJ-2000, KJ-200, and KJ-500 AWACS use L-band radar to detect an F-22. China built its entire Integrated Air Defense System (IADS) to detect and destroy stealth aircraft. The latest technological upgrade is China's KJ-500 AEW&C. The detection range is 470 kilometers or 282 mile. As you mentioned Airborne radars won't change the situation.

    China YJ-26 Anti-Stealth AESA Radar | 500 km range :


    By the way F22 was designed in the 90s with aged old IC tech and they closed the assembly line after that. so are they being upgraded or not ? and there is reason why R-27P with Anti-Radiation seekers exist. Russia sold China a lot of those.



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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:33 pm

    Guys, i have been wondering about the possibility of developing a multichannel IRST system that consist of multiple IRSTs in a sort of 360 (or 180 in this case)degree configuration for SHORADs, has there been any talk of such a system??

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Isos on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:21 pm

    max steel wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Is it correct that the moment the F22 turns on her radar it is game over ?


    When F-22 or B-2 opens it weapons bay can it be detected then ?

    1) It depends on the technology you have. Its radar have low probality of interception.

    2) If it's a ground radar : yes cf f-117 shoot by serbs with weapons bay opened
       If it's an airborne radar flying higher It won't change the situation

    Thanks. So my first guess is completely wrong and my second guess is correct. Funny China's  KJ-2000, KJ-200, and KJ-500 AWACS use L-band radar to detect an F-22. China built its entire Integrated Air Defense System (IADS) to detect and destroy stealth aircraft. The latest technological upgrade is China's KJ-500 AEW&C. The detection range is 470 kilometers or 282 mile. As you mentioned Airborne radars won't change the situation.

    China YJ-26 Anti-Stealth AESA Radar | 500 km range :By the way F22  was designed in the 90s with aged old IC tech and they closed the assembly line after that. so are they being upgraded or not ? and there is reason why R-27P with Anti-Radiation seekers exist. Russia sold China a lot of those.



    Well I was talking about a fighter's radar flying higher than the f-22.

    L band radar are known to be efficient in detecting stealth because the Wavelength is like 1-10 m if I remember correctly. However they are not very precise that's why they are not used in fighters : because they can't  lock on a target.

    F-22 stealth is realy great againt X band radars of fighters which have Wavelength of 1-10 cm.

    Now if you have an  AEW&C witha BIG L band radar it will detect the F-22 at very great distance with or without the weapon bay open. The error in the coordinates of the target wll be like 500m-1km (not sur about that but it's Something in these numbers). It can send a fighter to intercept it with it's radars turned off.

    However I've read that US have an upgrade for their naval AWACs which consist in a L band radar that s enough precise to lock on Pak-fa and J-20.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  max steel on Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:37 pm

    An L-Band Radar can't lock precisely on F-22 but it can get it done on T-50 . How come ? Low-band radars like the VHF-band 55Zh6 can see most LO aircraft much easier, yes. Until recently, there wasn't enough accuracy within a low-band radar to make it really mean anything. Now you've got digital VHF-band AESAs like the 55Zh6 that are significantly more capable. Shorter wavelength systems, such as fire control radars, are what the bulk of LO measures are intended to defeat (things like serrated panel edges, faceting, the intake grill of the F-117, etc.). That includes fighter radars, SAM engagement radars, etc. An F-22, F-35, or T-50 is too small to do anything relevant against a VHF-band system, short of putting a meter thick coating of RAM on the things. Given the number of advanced long-wavelength systems appearing and their ability to interface directly with SAM units, the F-35 is a hilarious waste of time. The T-50, not so much, as the US has never really put much effort into VHF-band systems. You need big-ass transmitters for one, making them unsuitable for airborne or naval use.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Singular_trafo on Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:00 pm

    Isos wrote:
    max steel wrote:
    Isos wrote:
    Is it correct that the moment the F22 turns on her radar it is game over ?


    When F-22 or B-2 opens it weapons bay can it be detected then ?

    1) It depends on the technology you have. Its radar have low probality of interception.

    2) If it's a ground radar : yes cf f-117 shoot by serbs with weapons bay opened
       If it's an airborne radar flying higher It won't change the situation

    Thanks. So my first guess is completely wrong and my second guess is correct. Funny China's  KJ-2000, KJ-200, and KJ-500 AWACS use L-band radar to detect an F-22. China built its entire Integrated Air Defense System (IADS) to detect and destroy stealth aircraft. The latest technological upgrade is China's KJ-500 AEW&C. The detection range is 470 kilometers or 282 mile. As you mentioned Airborne radars won't change the situation.

    China YJ-26 Anti-Stealth AESA Radar | 500 km range :By the way F22  was designed in the 90s with aged old IC tech and they closed the assembly line after that. so are they being upgraded or not ? and there is reason why R-27P with Anti-Radiation seekers exist. Russia sold China a lot of those.



    Well I was talking about a fighter's radar flying higher than the f-22.

    L band radar are known to be efficient in detecting stealth because the Wavelength is like 1-10 m if I remember correctly. However they are not very precise that's why they are not used in fighters : because they can't  lock on a target.

    F-22 stealth is realy great againt X band radars of fighters which have Wavelength of 1-10 cm.

    Now if you have an  AEW&C witha BIG L band radar it will detect the F-22 at very great distance with or without the weapon bay open. The error in the coordinates of the target wll be like 500m-1km (not sur about that but it's Something in these numbers). It can send a fighter to intercept it with it's radars turned off.

    However I've read that US have an upgrade for their naval AWACs which consist in a L band radar that s enough precise to lock on Pak-fa and J-20.


    No chance for AWAC fire control radar : )

    The 150 MHz phased array radar isa monster, you can't put that onto an airplane.

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    S-500 Weapon System Acquires the Faculty of Invisibility

    Post  AK-Rex on Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:02 am

    The Ministry of Defense has ordered special containers for the protection of the anti-aircraft weapon systems, radars, command posts, and other sophisticated electronic hardware platforms from detection by spy satellites, writes the Izvestia daily citing a representative of the Russian Defense Ministry familiar with the situation.



    In 2016 we plan to acquire such containers designed particularly for the latest anti-aircraft missile systems and anti-missile systems such as the S-500, the publication’s source reported.

    The new hardware will hide electromagnetic radiation which incidentally occurs during the operation of electronic systems from signals intelligence equipment. “It occurs during the operation of any electronic equipment: from a normal lamp to a heavy duty radar facility,” explained independent military expert and editor of the site Militaryrussia, Dmitrii Koneev. Radar may not emit a signal, it’s automated control system may neither transmit nor receive information, but its electronic components operate and receive electric power. This produces electromagnetic radiation, having detected which, the enemy can discover our positions without difficulty. By the type of radiation it’s possible not only to classify the target, but if we’re talking about means of communication and command posts, then also to read our data.

    Since 1995 the US National Reconnaissance Office has launched five “Mentor” geostationary reconnaissance satellites. Their purpose is not only to monitor global radio communications and discover new sources of transmission activity, but also to persistently look for incidental electromagnetic radiation. For this the five-ton satellites are equipped with antennas over 100 meters in diameter, which make them visible in the night sky to the naked eye.

    The American U2 high-altitude spy plane has been equipped with the Senior Glass system for many years, designed for the interception and analysis of incidental electromagnetic radiation. The first prototype of this system was tested during Operation Desert Storm, in which it demonstrated a high level of effectiveness.
    For defense against means of electronic reconnaissance Russian equipment will be enclosed in special containers which are not outwardly distinguishable from box trucks. However, there is a special coating within their walls and they contain special equipment to inhibit ambient radiation.

    Work on the development of the “invisible” containers was launched by the Ministry of Defense a few years ago. We are talking about the development of a series of containers of differing length and mass, to be installed directly on a truck chassis, or transported by road or rail. Some of the containers are already being mass-produced, others are going through testing. Some will contain only hardware, in others personnel will be able to operate.

    Communications systems, radar stations, radio-electronic warfare systems and command posts will be the first to be placed in the “invisible” containers.

    Shielding technologies have long been known. But to simply hide the radiation within such a massive weapons system as, say, the S-500, is impossible. It would hinder the functioning of the electronic system, and in certain conditions may become lethal for personnel. Therefore, to reach the needed effect it is necessary to combine special coatings and filters, a representative of the Ministry of Defense said.

    In parallel, the military has resolved another problem. The radiation of massive electronic weapons systems interferes with the operation of systems located nearby and negatively affects human health. This must be considered when deploying hardware. The use of absorbent containers eliminates this problem.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Vann7 on Sun Jun 19, 2016 11:38 am

    @Singular_trafo
    Other side, if a B-2 going into russia then it can carry twnety of these jammers, dispersing them on the way like candy , blinding out the radars.

    The only protection against this kind of jamming (or as matter of face agains any kind of jamming) is if you use multiple radar,overlapping each others.


    Just remember that stealth Only Reduce the Range a plane is detected using Radio waves.
    It will never be invisible. Even if it have alien technology ,that totally neutralize radars
    it can be shot down.. because....
    If you can see it with your eyes, you can shoot at it. and any combat planet always produce
    a lot of heat. you will burn your hands if you touch the engine of a B2 after it lands. same way with cars. It cannot totally hide it. not even close.

    What all this means ,is that B2 will have No Chance to enter in any part of Russia ,that Russia have air defenses ,not even if it is 100% stealth ,because will be shot down by Pantsirs that use Anti Heat sensor optics that can detect the heat of any stealth planes. heck.. even a manpad
    will shot down a B2 ,that is guided by lazer. or regular anti armor machine gun ,if it fly close to terrain that is the most effective way to hide from radars. Even a kornet-EM missile that is can shot down an B-2. if it is flying under 10km altitude and a soldier see it comming to his way.

    So this is the problem of all American simulations vs S-400. it totally ignores that S-400 never goes alone. it will have Pantsirs ,BUks and Tors defending it. and you might be able to jam
    a missile but not a bullet. and a B-2 might be able to reduce its signal but not totally. All planes produce heat and Noise ,you cannot hide that either.  So things are not as simple and to get a B-2 and start throwing jammers and decoys.  There will be a LOT of many early defenses that
    the B-2 will need to deal ,is a network that is connected. And as soon one soldier visually see a B-2 will call by radio of what he saw and it will be game over. Airforce will be sent to shut down
    the B-2. This is just in the worse case a really bad scenario ,that B-2 manage to hide from radars totally ,is flying low and the InfraRed guided air defenses are broken that day.

    Since more like the job for an Alqaeda suicide mission. Probably the most useless plane American have ..-> B-2. no idea where they plan to fly that.Because will be unable to hide at all. it will be detected ,even if Russian radars fails. it will not be invisible to human eyes or Infra red optics ,of Pantsirs ,and it will need to deal with Russian Airforce too.  then we have Russia counter electronics and jamming and decoys ,that will turn obsolete the american B-2 missiles.
    this is bombs designed in the 60s during the Korean War.  lol1

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B61_nuclear_bomb

    B-2 is mostly a visual strike Bomber and need to get very close to its target to hit it.
    with Unguided bombs.  Rolling Eyes

    Much more dangerous for Russia than a B-2 will be an F-16 armed with tomahawks with nukes. Americans have thousands of F-16s and they can do a mass attack and launch hundreds of them if not thousands them at the same time.  Reason why Russia will is closely watching
    any NATO "EXercises" Because mass deployment of F-16s or F-15s or F-18s it is a threat for Russia ,is armed with nuclear armed cruise missiles.  The cruise missiles are not hard to defeat.
    but in a mass scale attack ,it can overwhelm any defense. the same is true for Russia .

    Fortunately for Russia ,they have a good jamming system and can create major interference
    in any guidance of cruise missiles ,so their precision will be horrendous. will miss a baseball stadium if not more. depending when is jammed .

    Aside that Russia air defenses can also target missiles ,but a massive first strike attack
    of F-16s armed with nukes will be a major serious danger for Russia. Because failing to intercept just one missile will be terrible. For sure knowing how Americans think and how much hate Russia. it will be a Suicide pilot bomber. that will directly lead the nuke.

    and even more dangerous thing could be a civilian plane armed with nukes. or a container.
    also long range artillery armed with small nukes too.  But B-2 seems more like to fight Russian navy in water or coastal places like a submarine base because will have not a chance to penetrate Russia territory for more than a minute without being shot down.  it will be detected farther from Russia coast .because of its heat signature and noise of its engine.

    All things said , i dont think B-2 is useless or any other stealth plane , it have its place,
    but i don't see the b-2 become undetected any farther than 1-2 minutes of fly inside
    Russia. Probably B-2 will be more useful to attack Russia navy in deep waters or a hit and run attack on Russia coastal zones..

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Viktor on Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:02 am

    Guys, I think that what was tested was S-500 missile system  Laughing  Laughing  Laughing (not the A-135/225)

    Experts: tested missile rocket will allow to fend off the threat from the United States

    "C-500 will allow for interception purposes, including enemy warheads in near space and implement the concept of direct kinetic interception, that is, the destruction of the attacking warheads direct hit missiles", - Korochenko, adding noted that S-500 serial production of air defense missile systems planned for the Nizhny Novgorod plant 70 Anniversary of Victory within the group of EKR "Almaz-Antey".

    President of the Academy of Geopolitical Problems Konstantin Sivkov in turn, noted that the tested anti-missile missile is designed to cover the areas in accordance with the agreement on the limitation of anti-missile systems to the United States, but in non-compliance with the United States the terms of the contract, this complex may appear in other places, including marine carriers.

    "This event can be assessed only positively, because the test was successful. This missile defense system provides cover areas in accordance with the ABM Treaty, which was concluded with the United States. Russia this agreement does not violate, in contrast to the United States, and yet we consider occupancy of these complexes in the harmonized areas, but what will happen next - it depends on the situation ", - said Sivkov.

    The expert did not rule out that this complex defense system in the long term can be placed on sea carriers similar to the American system of "Aegis", but this is necessary to create the appropriate electronic equipment.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

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