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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

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    Mike E
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:32 am

    Oh my....

    Those tubes sure are big, are those for an S-300V system of some sort? They look too big to be the regular S-400 or S-300.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Viktor on Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:21 am

    Mike E wrote:Oh my....

    Those tubes sure are big, are those for an S-300V system of some sort? They look too big to be the regular S-400 or S-300.

    Actually these are tubes of both systems (S-400 (in front) and S-300V4 in the back).

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:44 am

    I never knew that the standard S-400 had such large missile tubes.... They absolutely dwarf those people!

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:14 am

    I was about to post that picture.. LOL  but Viktor came first..  Smile 
    I was wondering so big difference between S-300 and S-400 in Physical size.. how much larger and bigger
    the S-500s will be.. anyone have seen any diagrams comparing S-400 tubes vs S-500 tubes side by side?
    S-500s size have to be enormous wondering how they will fit on a Destroyer or Cruiser.. perhaps launched at 45 degress to the horizon?

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:42 am

    Large SAMs have always been big... it is not a coincidence that US pilots in Vietnam used to call incoming SA-2s Flying telegraph poles...

    I was wondering so big difference between S-300 and S-400 in Physical size..

    Actually the S-300 and S-400 are about the same size... in the photo below the S-300V are the two at the very back with one line of four missiles and two very large missiles.

    The smaller missiles in one row of four tubes is slightly smaller than S-300/S-400 and the bigger S-300V missiles are slightly bigger than the S-300/S-400 missile tubes.

    In Russian terminology the four tubes in two rows of two are the S-400 and S-300P missiles used by the Air Force (VVS) and Air Defence Forces (PVO).

    the S-300V with tracked vehicles and two missile types are the rear missiles in the twin and quad launcher types.

    the S-300P is called SA-10 in the west, The S-300V is called SA-12A and SA-12B in the west and the S-400 is called SA-20 in the west.

    In terms of depth perception the rearmost missiles look the smallest because they actually are the smallest, but the second most distant (twin missiles) look bigger than the third most distant which is the same size as the missiles at the front.

    If they were all lined up the same distance from the camera they would be middle, middle, biggest, smallest.

    They are big because they carry a heavy HE payload to destroy a range of targets including heavy bombers.

    The S-500 on the other hand likely has a relatively light compact payload that might expand just before impact to increase hit probability but likely also uses side thruster rockets to get it as close to the target being intercepted in the shortest possible time.

    this means the S-500 could be much smaller and lighter than the S-400... and S-300V... but it could be any size...


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:24 pm

    True, but I didn't know they were that big!

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  higurashihougi on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:48 am

    http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/746166

    Production of S-300 is going to be stopped in 2015 in favour of S-400. Nonetheless, the sub-components of S-300 will be still manufactured for export. Export of S-400 will begin from 2016.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 22, 2014 12:05 pm

    Think how big that makes the Kirov class cruisers as their front deck has 20 angled tubes for Granit, plus rotary launchers for Rif-M which is the S-300F or the S-300/S-400 sized tubes mounted under the deck...


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:01 pm

    GarryB wrote:Think how big that makes the Kirov class cruisers as their front deck has 20 angled tubes for Granit, plus rotary launchers for Rif-M which is the S-300F or the S-300/S-400 sized tubes mounted under the deck...

    Yeah, and that Granit is no small missile either... - That is a testament to how large Kirov really is.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:56 pm

    Production of S-300 missiles in Russia to be stopped within year — source
    MOSCOW, August 22. /ITAR-TASS/. Production of Russia’s S-300 missile systems will be fully stopped next year, a high-ranking source in the Russian military-industrial complex told ITAR-TASS.
    This also concerns export versions, he added. “I want to stress that the production of components for S-300 will continue and will even grow in the coming years,” he said.
    The source said S-300 missiles would be replaced with a number of new generation systems. “S-400 becomes the main system for our Armed Forces. S-300 missiles remain in operation, and their production will not be halted in a moment,” he said.

    Russia's latest air defense system S-400 licensed for export

    The source said the marketing policy of Russian producers of air defense systems is now aimed at advancing S-400 to foreign markets.
    “We have had a more efficient system for several years, I mean S-400. What is the point in producing things that don’t meet today’s demands of a customer?” he asked, saying S-400 supplies abroad would begin no earlier than in 2016.
    Redirecting deliveries
    S-300 Favorite missile systems destined for Syria may be delivered to Egypt, a Russian high-ranking defense industry source told ITAR-TASS on Friday.
    Egyptian partners have expressed interest in S-300 purchases. The system may be re-equipped for Egypt in a short period of time, the source added.

    S-300 system Russia made for Syria may be offered to other customer

    If an agreement is reached, software and some units and systems of "Syrian" S-300s will be changed, he said.
    Cairo bought about $400 million worth of ammunition from Moscow over the past ten years. A considerable volume of the military enginery bought from the Soviet Union is still in service in Egypt, the source said.
    Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates may provide substantial financial aid for Egypt, he added.


    Hopefully this will mean that Russia can put more focus on the S-350, S-400, and S-500! (Missiles)

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:16 am

    IF Russia does not deliver S-300's to Syria it will be bad.. it will be they not honoring their word again..
    as they did with IRAN.. Syria paid since 2008 for S-300s missiles and still have not yet received them only
    empty promises.  Neutral 

    This is totally stupid. Even Syria ordered 12 Mig-29 in 2008.. and still have not delivered them.. And this is paid
    in advance. Russia foreign policy is at times totally ludicrous . How Russia expect to be taken seriously and countries to seek their independence if they do not support their historical allies when more they need it.

    http://en.ria.ru/world/20130809/182673359/No-Russian-S-300-Systems-for-Syria-Until-2014--Paper.html

    Syria paid for the S-300s missiles long time ago.. and now Russia is saying will not deliver them at all.. perhaps
    for fear of not annoying their "partners" in the west. this is so unprofessional that Syria have the right to demand in a court their money back with a fine.. Basically the same Russia did to IRAN ,is what they doing to Syria. Unless Russia supplied the missiles in secret , i cannot imagine how can they justify breaching their contract again.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:04 am

    Production of S-300 is going to be stopped in 2015 in favour of S-400. Nonetheless, the sub-components of S-300 will be still manufactured for export. Export of S-400 will begin from 2016.

    So for clarity the S-300P will stop production in 2015, while the S-300V4 will continue in production for the Russian Army, and the S-350 and S-400 will be produced for the Air Force.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  medo on Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:51 am

    Vann7 wrote:IF Russia does not deliver S-300's to Syria it will be bad.. it will be they not honoring their word again..
    as they did with IRAN.. Syria paid since 2008 for S-300s missiles and still have not yet received them only
    empty promises.  Neutral 

    This is totally stupid. Even Syria ordered 12 Mig-29 in 2008.. and still have not delivered them.. And this is paid
    in advance. Russia foreign policy is at times totally ludicrous . How Russia expect to be taken seriously and countries to seek their independence if they do not support their historical allies when more they need it.

    http://en.ria.ru/world/20130809/182673359/No-Russian-S-300-Systems-for-Syria-Until-2014--Paper.html

    Syria paid for the S-300s missiles long time ago.. and now Russia is saying will not deliver them at all.. perhaps
    for fear of not annoying their "partners" in the west. this is so unprofessional that Syria have the right to demand in a court their money back with a fine.. Basically the same Russia did to IRAN ,is what they doing to Syria.  Unless Russia supplied the missiles in secret , i cannot imagine how can they justify breaching their contract again.

    It's true, that Syria order and pay for them, but Russia and Assad are in close connections, so it could as well be a deal, that Russia instead of new S-300, which they could not use against FSA and Caliphate units and few MiGs, they send spare parts and ammo for their air force and for tanks and other equipment as well as for additional ammo, food, fuel, medicines etc. Syrian air force is still very active and they now often use PGMs, which are also not cheap. After 3 years of intensive war, Syrian army could not survive against NATO supplied rebels without Russian supplies. In time of war Russia overhaul all Syrian Su-24, which are a backbone of Syrian air force now. War simply change priorities.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Austin on Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:51 pm

    Andrei Demin: Sky strictly controlled

    http://www.redstar.ru/index.php/2011-07-25-15-55-32/item/17955-andrej-demin-nebo-pod-neusypnym-kontrolem


    - As is the case with the re-equipment of troops command in the run-up to create a unified air defense system, defense of the country? 

    - It is planned that the new anti-aircraft missile system S-500 will be the main tool to create strategic air defense systems, missile defense. We look forward to her admission to the troops. I hope that the first copy of the standard anti-aircraft missile system S-500 will go just to equip the troops entrusted to me. 

    The system of non-strategic missile defense in Moscow, which will be integrated in the air defense system, defense of the country, is constantly improving. Being overhauled and tests were armed missiles "Gazelle" and future missile defenses. 

    - Do you expect entry into service of new sets of S-400 and ZRPK "Armour-S"? 

    - Armed with anti-aircraft missile forces Air Defense Command-PRO already has three anti-aircraft missile system S-400, which are equipped with three anti-aircraft missile regiment. Each shelf has anti-aircraft missile and artillery battalion, equipped with a set of "Armour-S", intended for direct cover of S-400, the command post and other objects of the enemy precision weapons. Until the end, another anti-aircraft missile regiment of our command to rearm for S-400 and after the initial firings at the Kapustin Yar intercede on combat duty in the defense of Moscow. 

    - Until 2020, will create a ring radar horizon detection "Container-Z" air defense system. How are the tests of the first samples HFZ "container"? 

    - December 2, 2013, my first participation radar HFZ "Container-W" in Kolylkine (Republic Mordovia) put on an experimental combat duty. Today, it can be argued that inherent in it the possibility of using one hundred percent. The station sees all airborne targets at a distance of 3,000 km and is one of the means of intelligence and prevention of air-space attack the enemy. Our station is a few minutes recognizes the characteristics of military aircraft, dangerous for our country, even when they are on the runway in the border with the Russian states. 

    Today, technology, close to the radar HFZ "Container", owned by seven countries. But unlike their Western counterparts, our network radar HFZ will be placed not along the border and in the interior of the country, which ensures its vitality. And this arrangement characteristics of the station "Container-W" in Kovylkino allow you to control the West, and in the future strategic direction of the South. Thus increase the chances of radio station troops who control the airspace within Russia, a few hundred kilometers. 

    - How to organize pairing forces and means of air and missile defense? 

    - Armed with the command post of our association, which is now called the Air Defense Command Control Center-PRO consist of automated management tools "Bastion-FOR" and "Universal-1." They directly drive the combat use of a compound of air defense, have the opportunity to interact with the information system of missile defense. 

    - In the press coined the term "missile artillery." Can you tell us about the purpose of these weapons? 

    - On this the first time I heard the term. But I can say that the active protection systems, which are capable of destroying an aerial target for a few hundred meters from her approaching the object being developed. This new weapons designed to protect against missiles "air-to-ground." It will add all the current views and air defense.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Hachimoto on Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:56 pm

    The last point means APS for artillery ?

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:13 am

    That is what it seems like... If so, it will be a great innovation.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:08 am

    Austin wrote: 

     - In the press coined the term "missile artillery."  Can you tell us about the purpose of these weapons? 

     - On this the first time I heard the term.  But I can say that the active protection systems, which are capable of destroying an aerial target for a few hundred meters from her approaching the object being developed.  This new weapons designed to protect against missiles "air-to-ground."  It will add all the current views and air defense.


    ...Wow is this an in-direct confirmation that Morfey will be used as an Active Protection System? Even though he doesn't publicly state that the advanced APS is Morfey, but for an APS to shoot down aerial targets  such as aerial launched ATGM's a few hundred meters away sounds very like Morfey and unlike any traditional APS, as Morfey will be capable of engaging targets at a maximum distance of 5 km. I remember asking the very question if Morfey would be capable of being used for the purpose of an advanced active proctection system (APS) as I suspected that a possible application could be that of a APS of a higher caliber.

    Mofey will need some kind of radar, which works perfectly with the fact that the Armata platform will be acquiring the T-50 PAK-FA's X-Band AESA radar, and it's quite possible the Armata based Koalition vehicle could have it and may'be even Koalition's Armata based logistic and supply vehicles may even have them (if it's practical and worth the extra cost). With a battery of Armata vehicles with PAK-FA X-Band AESA radars, with secure coded satellite uplinks it could act as a miniature IAD, but the real question is how will Morfey be applied to said vehicles? It seems highly unlikely for a Morfey system to be directly attached to the vehicle itself, and it seems more realistic that it will come as a trailer that could be hitched behind the Armata platform. Morfey will have a extreme short range of 5 km, so it will be a small compact missile that could be carried in numbers, I would prefer a trailer that would be capable of carrying 100 Morfey missiles in 4 tiers of 5X5 rows witch amounts to 25 Morfey missiles per tier. The top layered tier will obviously be the layer where the firing mechanism is placed, the bottom piece of the tube in the top tier will act as a retractable heat shield if Morfey turns out to be a hot-launched missile, but in all likeliness will most likely be a cold-launched missile to minimize the Infrared emissions as much as possible, making the need for the bottom retractable piece (of the top tier tube) being capable of acting like a heat shield less of a necessity. There would also be a need for a missile elevating mechanism.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:10 am

    Funny, I've been thinking about the same thing... Morfey, based on its intended role, could probably be used as an "extended range" APS system. - I thought the maximum range was 10 km, but I could be ill-informed.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:36 am

    Mike E wrote:Funny, I've been thinking about the same thing... Morfey, based on its intended role, could probably be used as an "extended range" APS system. - I thought the maximum range was 10 km, but I could be ill-informed.

    Your thinking of Sosna/Palash missile which is a 10 km range missile, I believe Morfey missile is a 5 km range missile in the land based version, I believe Morfey missile that will be intended for T-50 PAK-FA (which will be an aerial launched version) will have a 15 km range.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:21 am

    The 10 km range is the Sosna's, that is what I got confused about...  Embarassed 

    They seem to be similar missiles in general.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:44 am

    I hate to sound stupid, but can the S-300V engage MIRVs? - The US really doesn't have any good BM in their inventory, so I feel like anti-MIRV use would be more beneficial.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:01 pm

    Only the S-500 will be able to intercept ICBM speed targets... or indeed satellites in orbit.

    S-300V4 will be able to deal with all short range BMs... IRBMs are banned by treaty between US and Russia, but France or the UK might develop something... I seem to recall the Bulgarians still having the SS-23...


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Thu Aug 28, 2014 12:26 am

    Ah crap! That is ok, but how nice it would be!

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Vann7 on Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:21 am

    GarryB wrote:Only the S-500 will be able to intercept ICBM speed targets... or indeed satellites in orbit.

    S-300V4 will be able to deal with all short range BMs... IRBMs are banned by treaty between US and Russia, but France or the UK might develop something... I seem to recall the Bulgarians still having the SS-23...


    S-400s can deal with ICBMS too..but the probably you need several missiles to target a multiple war head.
    And the altitude of interception is not very high..  The Sm-3 for example.. what destroy the ICBMs is not a is not a missile warhead but more like a mobile space mine that step in the trajectory of an incoming missile. its speed is very slow.. but it doesn't need to be fast since is fired ahead of the flight path of the ICBM.. and explode when it pass near .


    Ah crap! That is ok, but how nice it would be! wrote:


    S-400s can also intercept ICBMS but at lower altitude on the final phase of the impact. S-500s in the other hand
    it appears that could also intercept at mid course at any altitude.  But Russia best weapons are the ones they keep in secret.. and do not discuss much about or sell or promote to anyone. Smile

    Here are the A-235 SAMOLET-M  with  53T6 missile.

    http://missilethreat.com/defense-systems/a-235-samolet-m/

    Is the last line of defense in moscow and their best defense weapon.. The A-135 version that also Russia have it is said have mini nukes ,on its warhead to destroy any incoming ICBM. the A-235 have been said
    to have hit to kill capabilities.. also exclusive defenses for Moscow. the missile Booster is HUGE and its an incredibly High Highpersonic fast missile..  

    This one is A-135 anti ballistic defense. (very fat missile)


    This one is a bit larger.. could be A-235 anti ICBM defense.


    So Russian defenses in Moscow against MIRV are S-400s +A-135+A+A-235  and apparently the S-500 will be used for mid course interception.. ie.. Because can fly very high altitude and have a long range 600km  is ideal for a very early mid course interception. So probably will be used more at Russian borders.. while the others anti ICBM defenses at Moscow capital for a final course interception.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:30 am

    I've never heard anyone say that the S-400 can tackle MIRVs... If the S-300V4 can't than there is almost no chance the S-400 can (at least with the current armament of missiles).

    We've talked about this before... It isn't a "mine", but it doesn't have a propulsive stage. In that respect it is like most real rockets, the last stage puts it into a trajectory that will get it into the intended orbit. (Aka, it won't have a real propulsion source, and it will "glide" into orbit.) Imagine a SAM that uses its first or second stage to put it into the trajectory of the target aircraft, but drops its stages and uses its controls and inertia to hit that target. - Same thing, but with an ABM missile.

    S-500 will be able to go head to head with the ICBMs, the result of a "clash" is obvious considering the age of NATO/US ICBMs.




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