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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

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    Mike E
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:06 am

    That is what we've been talking about. Russia has so many missiles that the S-500 won't have to attack "regular" targets.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:00 am

    Viktor wrote:territorial PVO                                

    - S-500                                      
    - S-400                                      
    - S-300 Favorit                            
    - S-350                                      
    - Pancir-SM/S1                            
    - Morfei                                      
    - Verba/Igla/ZSU-23    


    Army PVO

    - S-300V4
    - BUK-M3/M2/M1  
    - Pancir-SM/S1 (likely)
    - Tor-M1/M2/M2U
    - Morfei (could be - Im counting on it Very Happy )
    - Pine (replacement for Strela-10M3)
    - Tunguska/Igla/ZSU-23

    so you see you have 5-6 layers, target will have to pass to successfully struck the goal. Territorial and Army PVO have they own AND separate radar/elint/ecm/eccm units which

    Viktor, you forgot that PVO also has a number of interceptors (Mig-31's) under their control and that's the most outer layer of air defense, so theirs at least 8 layers of in PVO.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:16 am

    The more the merrier! - We were talking about ground defenses, but I guess we can add a little on air defenses.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:09 pm

    No one will use S-500s to shoot down UAVs, but irrespective of the monetary value if a cruise missile is detected closing in on a target and the target is valuable then S-500 might be the best option in some situations to engage the threat.

    With an IADS it is rather more likely that a cheaper closer shorter ranged missile could be used instead... which is what the IADS is for.

    Calling them layers can be confusing because although there are lots of different systems that are effective to different altitudes and different ranges and optimised to defend different objects a threat generally wont just have 6 specific layers to defeat to reach its target.

    a threat behind enemy lines might require an aircraft or long range missile to penetrate hundreds of layers of air defence systems just to get to the target area. Normally with large systems to big to move easily these are of generally known position and likely marked on maps so when planning attacks such systems can generally be evaded, or indeed targeted.

    With all the Soviet/Russian systems being mobile... including large powerful radars things become much harder for the attacker.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:45 pm

    Vann7 wrote:

    Anyone who use an S-500 to shoot down a $500k tomahack cruise missile should be fired from his job. Because
    the S-500 missile ,is like a space rocket and its cost should not be cheap. My estimate compared with how much brahmos cost 1.5 millions is from $10 -$20 millions per missile.

    You missed the point entirely, saturation attacks with nuclear tipped cruise missiles and clusters of strategic bombers can easily be just as much a problem as ICBM's, and unlike ICBM's America's B-1 lancer is not restricted by the START treaty, which can easily hold 20+ cruise missiles with over 2,400 km range, add that there's over 100 B-1 lancers and you can come to the conclusion that strategic cruise missiles easily become a national security risk on par with ICBM's. If you have 1000 nuclear cruise missiles fired towards Russia's borders in a surprise saturation attack than it would be smart to have S-500 missiles with tactical nuclear warheads capable of destroying saturated clusters of strategic cruise missiles (especially early enough when their still in proximity of their strategic bombers) 4,000-6,000 km's away from Russia's borders, because it's not enough to destroy the cruise missile you have to figure in radioactive fallout and pervasive winds, and how that might effect the Russian population.

    The farther away you can defeat nuclear cruise missiles, the better, and you can't rule out strategic missiles being fitted with MAWS suite, and programmed to detonate to take out strategic interceptors like Mig-31's, and instead of measuring the cost of one 1 S-500 missile to 1 cruise missile, you should measure the cost of human life and the cost of a major population center being irradiated and inhospitable for several decades and the lost income resulting from it.

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    S-300 Long Range SAM system

    Post  sepheronx on Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:46 pm

    I have noticed the push to removing old S-300 systems. My guess is because they are already long compromised. Possibly in future Syria will get an export S-400 or S-300VM as an alternative.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:25 pm

    sepheronx wrote:I have noticed the push to removing old S-300 systems. My guess is because they are already long compromised. Possibly in future Syria will get an export S-400 or S-300VM as an alternative.

    1.) Compromised? Actual exercises involving Slovakian S-300's (likely they've been taken apart and sorted with a fine-tooth comb) with NATO forces proven without a shadow of a doubt the S-300 family's extreme resistance to jamming and other forms of ECM, and the S-300's that were contracted to go to Syria were most likely better all around than Slovakian S-300's including jamming resistance.

    2.) If the Israeli's and the Turks want to host American strategic radars to spy on Russian airspace, then why should Russia capitulate and not deliver the S-300's? If Israel and Turkey want to become strategic assets for America's nuclear triad, then delivering the S-300's make's a lot of sense because you can't rule out strategic bombers being stationed in those 2 countries, and having long range air defense assets capable of swatting strategic bombers out the air could be a vital asset in undermining a saturated cruise missile attack from Russia's south-west, especially if Russia and Syria are working closely together in an integrated IAD fashion.

    3.) The S-300's were already ready to be delivered, and the S-400's and S-300VM's will take time to assemble...and the famous saying  goes "A bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush".

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  etaepsilonk on Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:42 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:I have noticed the push to removing old S-300 systems. My guess is because they are already long compromised. Possibly in future Syria will get an export S-400 or S-300VM as an alternative.

    1.) Compromised? Actual exercises involving Slovakian S-300's (likely they've been taken apart and sorted with a fine-tooth comb) with NATO forces proven without a shadow of a doubt the S-300 family's extreme resistance to jamming and other forms of ECM, and the S-300's that were contracted to go to Syria were most likely better all around than Slovakian S-300's including jamming resistance.

    If I'm not wrong, Slovakian version was s-300ps.
    So, PMU2 should be two generations ahead of that, S-400- three.

    However, keep in mind that "resistance to jamming" is not a plain single value, but many factors, each affecting performance in a various ways.


    Last edited by etaepsilonk on Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:50 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:48 pm

    etaepsilonk wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:I have noticed the push to removing old S-300 systems. My guess is because they are already long compromised. Possibly in future Syria will get an export S-400 or S-300VM as an alternative.

    1.) Compromised? Actual exercises involving Slovakian S-300's (likely they've been taken apart and sorted with a fine-tooth comb) with NATO forces proven without a shadow of a doubt the S-300 family's extreme resistance to jamming and other forms of ECM, and the S-300's that were contracted to go to Syria were most likely better all around than Slovakian S-300's including jamming resistance.

    If I'm not wrong, Slovakian version was s-300ps.
    So, PMU2 should be two generations ahead of that, S-400- three.

    However, keep in mind that "resistance to jamming" is not a plain single value.

    Exactly, and the version of S-300 that was under close NATO scrutiny and examination was proven to be extremely capable and resilient against NATO forces and their jamming tactics in NATO exercises, so despite getting to know the in's-and-out's of the system they were still helpless to stop it.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  etaepsilonk on Mon Aug 11, 2014 8:52 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    etaepsilonk wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    sepheronx wrote:I have noticed the push to removing old S-300 systems. My guess is because they are already long compromised. Possibly in future Syria will get an export S-400 or S-300VM as an alternative.

    1.) Compromised? Actual exercises involving Slovakian S-300's (likely they've been taken apart and sorted with a fine-tooth comb) with NATO forces proven without a shadow of a doubt the S-300 family's extreme resistance to jamming and other forms of ECM, and the S-300's that were contracted to go to Syria were most likely better all around than Slovakian S-300's including jamming resistance.

    If I'm not wrong, Slovakian version was s-300ps.
    So, PMU2 should be two generations ahead of that, S-400- three.

    However, keep in mind that "resistance to jamming" is not a plain single value.

    Exactly, and the version of S-300 that was under close NATO scrutiny and examination was proven to be extremely capable and resilient against NATO forces and their jamming tactics in NATO exercises, so despite getting to know the in's-and-out's of the system they were still helpless to stop it.  

    Under what conditions they were helpless? Smile
    Standoff mainlobe jamming should be very difficult to deal with, even with advanced radars.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  medo on Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:04 pm

    Vann7 wrote:Anyone who use an S-500 to shoot down a $500k tomahack cruise missile should be fired from his job. Because
    the S-500 missile ,is like a space rocket and its cost should not be cheap. My estimate compared with how much brahmos cost 1.5 millions is from $10 -$20 millions per missile.

    I don't agree here. If Tomahawk cruise missile fly to Russia, than it most probably have nuclear warhead. So if no other SAM in IADS is in better position, than firing an S-500 missile against it is still OK as S-500 missile is still far cheaper than destroyed town.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  AlfaT8 on Mon Aug 11, 2014 9:12 pm

    sepheronx wrote:I have noticed the push to removing old S-300 systems. My guess is because they are already long compromised. Possibly in future Syria will get an export S-400 or S-300VM as an alternative.
    Even if NATO had acquired some older versions of the S-300 (from Slovakia and Greece) and had them properly analyzed, the S-300 development is not static, it also has deferent flavors of Surveillance radars and Target tracking/missile guidance systems not to mention missiles (yes, i am still talking about the PMU1), so it still makes no sense to scrap them, especially now, when the West is attacking Russia economically.  Suspect 

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:46 pm

    medo wrote:
    Vann7 wrote:Anyone who use an S-500 to shoot down a $500k tomahack cruise missile should be fired from his job. Because
    the S-500 missile ,is like a space rocket and its cost should not be cheap. My estimate compared with how much brahmos cost 1.5 millions is from $10 -$20 millions per missile.

    I don't agree here. If Tomahawk cruise missile fly to Russia, than it most probably have nuclear warhead. So if no other SAM in IADS is in better position, than firing an S-500 missile against it is still OK as S-500 missile is still far cheaper than destroyed town.

    At that point smaller missiles could easily finish job, although I have to agree with what magnum (P.I.) said.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Tue Aug 12, 2014 8:52 am

    I don't agree here. If Tomahawk cruise missile fly to Russia, than it most probably have nuclear warhead. So if no other SAM in IADS is in better position, than firing an S-500 missile against it is still OK as S-500 missile is still far cheaper than destroyed town.

    Yes... it is not about trading dollar for dollar in missiles, the threat missiles are intended to hit targets and the dollar value of those targets needs to be taken into account... not firing a 1 million dollar S-500 because it is only a 1 million dollar Tomahawk and you don't want to trade dollar for dollar could result in that million dollar missile destroying Moscow or Leningrad and doing trillions of dollars damage.

    Obviously there wont be hundreds of thousands of S-500s made and important targets would include likely ICBMs and indeed in late model versions of the S-500 GPS satellites and other important satellites too.

    In many ways it is a bit like small arms fire and artillery... you see a suicide bomber from 2km distance running towards you... there might be a guy with an AK-74 1.8km away from you who could take him out with a round that costs a few cents, or you can get the sniper sitting next to you to take the shot with a 14.5mm HMG with a couple of hundred dollars worth of HMG rounds, or you could have a nearby METIS-M1 team fire a missile worth a few thousand dollars and destroy the suicide bomber and the car he is in.

    There would be a lot of factors involved including what the suicide bomber is doing... they might have noticed the nearby troops and they might be targeting them so launching a Metis would take too long to impact to be the option of choice. Equally they might not realise there are troops so close and they might be going for you... either way I would say a spray of small arms fire from the troops in close would be the cheapest and fastest response.

    Waiting for the vehicle to get closer will also reduce the shot to impact delay for the other weapons and make a kill more likely... but even at 1km a burst from 2-3 PKMs or PKPs could probably do the job too which would save the long range sniper ammo and short to medium range anti armour ammo for some something that requires that sort of munition.

    A good IADS means selection of the right system to engage. In previous wars they probably wouldn't have known what was happening but the small arms in close probably would have taken out the target anyway.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Sujoy on Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:20 pm

    GarryB wrote:No one will use S-500s to shoot down UAVs

    Yes, that would be an overkill . However, if the UAV in question is a Global Hawk then why not .

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:52 pm

    Even the Hawk "doesn't deserve" to be killed by a S-500. The S-400 would deliver for a lower cost...

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Wed Aug 13, 2014 11:46 am

    If the global hawk knows there are S-400s present and remains at 500km range then S-500 might be the only interception option.

    Or if the S-500s are operating on their own, perhaps with TOR and Pantsir-S1 defending them primarily against ballistic threats and an F-22 is detected at 200km range then of course it will be worth a shot.

    Indeed if a B-2 is detected it will also be worth a shot too.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Wed Aug 13, 2014 5:48 pm

    GarryB wrote:If the global hawk knows there are S-400s present and remains at 500km range then S-500 might be the only interception option.

    Or if the S-500s are operating on their own, perhaps with TOR and Pantsir-S1 defending them primarily against ballistic threats and an F-22 is detected at 200km range then of course it will be worth a shot.

    Indeed if a B-2 is detected it will also be worth a shot too.
    I can agree with that...

    Same.

    B-2 should always be a "high priority" target, at least until its replacement arrives.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:23 pm

    - From RIA.

    "(RIA Novosti) – A unique Russian GAZ Tigr chassis-mounted anti-aircraft command module, can simultaneously locate 15 targets per second, a representative for the Scientific-Industrial Enterprise Rubin told RIA Novosti on Thursday.
    “The Defense Ministry has demanded to urgently create this vehicle. They have come up with the basic design directives. The hardware’s task is to provide covering fire for the units marching in the near zone of the contact with an adversary. The vehicle deploys for action within five minutes,” Rubin’s representative said.
    He added that the vehicle has its own reconnaissance assets and is capable of autonomous work. Along with this, target assignment takes no longer than one second. The hardware can work at temperatures from minus 50 to 60 degrees Celsius (minus 58 to 32 degrees Fahrenheit).
    “This is an independently developed prototype. We are currently in talks over its trials with the Defense Ministry, in the follow-up of which we will decide whether to launch a series line production. It [the module] is exhibited for the first time, and it has no analogues in Russia today,” the source said.
    Previously, Russian troops armed with man-portable air defense systems have not had a command and target indication vehicle available, acting autonomously. The introduction of such hardware allows the troops to receive more precise target data.
    “We are trying to stick to the policy of using purely Russian components, in the context of the latest sanctions introduced against our country,” added the enterprise’s officer.
    Rubin’s representative stressed that the development was carried out in a timely manner, starting in mid-2013 and delivering a prototype in May 2014. The vehicle was presented to the Defense Ministry at a command post rehearsal at the 76th Guards Air Assault Division based in Pskov, receiving a few suggestions on improving its construction and capability."

    I didn't know where I should post this, but it has to do with AA radar...

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:04 pm

    Actually I suspect this vehicle has all round IR sensors... it will likely be part of the Barnaul-M system for MANPADS operators to find targets and cue soldiers with MANPADS to warn them the direction and altitude of approaching targets.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Viktor on Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:35 am

    Now this post is very important  Very Happy 

    as it makes a direct confirmation of what I have found and reported 5 months ago and concerns engagement channels of the S-400 system

    Remember this The Triumf system is more than two times more effective that previous systems.     Each system can attack 10 targets with up to 20 missiles. post ....

    and now look at this Karpenkovs post from "nevskii-bastion" blog LINK where he reports about S-400 system from "Engineering Technologies - 2014" in Zhukovsky.

    well here we go:  Very Happy 



    The performance characteristics:

    The affected area in range, km "aerodynamic targets"  - 3-380
    ballistic targets                                                     - 5-60

    Min. / Max. Height destroys targets, km
    "Aerodynamic targets"                                             - 0.01 / 30
    ballistic targets                                                      - 2/25

    Number of simultaneously tracked trails purposes pcs.   - 300

    Number of simultaneously engaged targets AAMS, pcs.   - 80 *

    Number of simultaneously induced missiles AAMS, pcs.    - 160 *


    * At full strength air defense system


    And oh yea two more important things:

    1. Each regimental composition in its full streingh consists of 8 (not 6 as in previous modes) S-400 batteries



    COMPOSITION:
    "Tools 30K6E "Up to 8 anti-aircraft missiles 98ZH6E


    2. Im sure you noticed the range of the system ... and is now 380km for aerodynamic targets  russia  russia 


    Is it me or did 91N6 just got nastier looks





    As if that is not enough regimental command post just got more goodies as it is now able to do all these things which previously required brigade lvl command post and the brigade lvl command post also got lvl up for an order of magnitude



    SU 30K6E designed to control the combat work:

    - SAM system 98ZH6E 40R6E
    - "S-300PMU2"
    - "AAMS S-300PMU1
    - "air defense system" Favorite "(S-300PMU2) through SU 83M6E2, S-300PMU1 through SU 83M6E
    - "AAMS" Tor-M1 "through the battery command post (BCP)" ranked-M "(subject to finalization )
    - "ZRPK" Armour-S "
    - "Additionally imparted RFCs 91N6E
    - "en-route radar output type VZV 96L6E," Enemy-GE "," Gamma-DE "
    - "AAMS customer - with more work on information technology pairing SU 30K6E radar:


    Now this is just too damn brutal thing to comprehend (number of engagement channels has grown by 40%, number of missile channels has also grown by 40%, number of

    batteries in missille regiment has grown by 25% and regimental command post itself has grown to the previous brigade lvl command post)

    and if we multiply all that meaning:

    Effectiveness of S-400 in comparison with S-300Favorit: = 1.4 x 1.4 x 1.25 = 2.45 TIMES !!!!!

    and Deputy Defence Minister Yuri Borisov said

    The system “is about 2-2.5 times better than existing systems in terms of cost efficiency”, he added

     Very Happy  Very Happy 

    of course this is rough numbers because many more factors arises from much more capable post that would up this number by few more points too but that analysis is beyond our means

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:08 am

    I'm overwhelmed with all of this good news!  russia  russia  russia  

    Now all we need is some more good news on the S-500.......

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  medo on Tue Aug 19, 2014 9:05 pm

    So, S-400 is now equipped with big missile to have 380 km range. Excellent.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Viktor on Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:17 pm

    Now we know where first regiment will go Very Happy

    The first regiment of the newest system S-500 will cover the center of Moscow and Russia

    and in few months another S-400 regiment will start guarding the Moscow sky

    One more regiment in Moscow region to adopt S-400 systems this autumn

    after proving its worth

    S-400 systems down 3 ballistic missiles during exercises in Astrakhan region


    and size does matter Very Happy



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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:28 am

    Viktor wrote:and size does matter Very Happy



    That's what she said! See the woman's fixation of the size of the tube? Chicks dig the big and long missile, especially if they're tipped with an expanding rod! Wink

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