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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

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    GarryB
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:07 pm

    S-400 can deal with targets coming in at 4.8km/s which is an enormous speed, but equates to something like a 3.500km range ballistic missile.

    It is an IRBM missile range which is banned by the INF treaty but any country that is not Russia or the US is not bound by the INF treaty... so China can have them for example as can France or the UK.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:36 pm

    GarryB wrote:S-400 can deal with targets coming in at 4.8km/s which is an enormous speed, but equates to something like a 3.500km range ballistic missile.

    It is an IRBM  missile range which is banned by the INF treaty but any country that is not Russia or the US is not bound by the INF treaty... so China can have them for example as can France or the UK.

    That is what I thought... So technically they can hit MIRVs, but only ones from smaller, slower ballistic missiles.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Viktor on Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:53 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    GarryB wrote:S-400 can deal with targets coming in at 4.8km/s which is an enormous speed, but equates to something like a 3.500km range ballistic missile.

    It is an IRBM  missile range which is banned by the INF treaty but any country that is not Russia or the US is not bound by the INF treaty... so China can have them for example as can France or the UK.

    That is what I thought... So technically they can hit MIRVs, but only ones from smaller, slower ballistic missiles.

    Garry is right. S-400 can not target ICBM but it can IRBM.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:14 pm

    Exactly, and it wasn't me who believed that in the first place...

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:40 pm

    Of course the specs are what we are quoting... ICBM warheads coming in at a shallow angle do slow down a lot more so there is potential for the S-400 to possibly engage them... it would certainly be better than nothing.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:03 pm

    GarryB wrote:Of course the specs are what we are quoting... ICBM warheads coming in at a shallow angle do slow down a lot more so there is potential for the S-400 to possibly engage them... it would certainly be better than nothing.

    Then again S-400 missiles tipped with thermonuclear warheads are a force multiplier in itself.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:14 pm

    I think the missiles are little bit to small for nuclear warheads.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Aug 31, 2014 2:24 pm

    Werewolf wrote:I think the missiles are little bit to small for nuclear warheads.

    May'be not a huge warhead (considering the range is 400 km and below that's probably a good thing) but I think the 48N6E3 / 48N6-2 / 48N6DM missiles can carry a 180 kg warhead.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:08 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:I think the missiles are little bit to small for nuclear warheads.

    May'be not a huge warhead (considering the range is 400 km and below that's probably a good thing) but I think the 48N6E3 / 48N6-2 / 48N6DM missiles can carry a 180 kg warhead.

    Considering that 400km is maximum range against slow targets and not ICBM/IRBMs i would guess it is far less than 60km distance for even slight capabilities to intercept real ICBMs traveling at hypersonic speeds. And 60km from my knowledge is rather generous guess and with only 60km or most probably less, a nuke warhead would creat problems for the IADs through an EMP, so i would guess that is a job for S-500 and real ABM shields.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:34 pm

    Werewolf wrote:
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    Werewolf wrote:I think the missiles are little bit to small for nuclear warheads.

    May'be not a huge warhead (considering the range is 400 km and below that's probably a good thing) but I think the 48N6E3 / 48N6-2 / 48N6DM missiles can carry a 180 kg warhead.

    Considering that 400km is maximum range against slow targets and not ICBM/IRBMs i would guess it is far less than 60km distance for even slight capabilities to intercept real ICBMs traveling at hypersonic speeds. And 60km from my knowledge is rather generous guess and with only 60km or most probably less, a nuke warhead would creat problems for the IADs through an EMP, so i would guess that is a job for S-500 and real ABM shields.

    What you say is true, but who's to say a future S-400 modernization program couldn't change that? A LFTR reactor for example is unlike uranium reactors, due to the fact that nearly 100% of the Liquid-Fluoride Thorium molten salts fuel is used in the nuclear process (uranium reactors use only 3-4% of it's fuel)  creating 1/100th the nuclear waste, and because of that LFTR reactors could be built with minimal equipment (no worry of hydrogen explosions, far more stable process), they're several magnitudes more powerful, they can be scaled up or down to a high degree among other things (most of these facts has been known since the 1950's). You may ask what's the relevance of a LFTR reactor and S-400 missiles? As I already mentioned LFTR reactors can be scaled up or down to great degree, theoretically a S-400 missile (S-500, and various other missiles) fitted with a car engine sized LFTR reactor could grant a missile with significantly greater range while maintaining high speed (could be applied with next-generation scramjet propulsion), and the most limiting factor would be the power of the radar (which could be powered with a LFTR reactor to increase it's power significantly, increasing missile range further more). That's just one direction of modernization.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:40 pm

    Not really educated myself about LFTR reactors, but i was speaking about current S-400 capabilities even tho generous with the estimations. Without doubt it will recieve upgrades and new technologies maybe even more effecient rockets over the years/decade(s) that would make it like the comperision of basic S-300 to S-300V4/PMU which have a significant raise in performance compared to basic models.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Aug 31, 2014 3:54 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Not really educated myself about LFTR reactors, but i was speaking about current S-400 capabilities even tho generous with the estimations. Without doubt it will recieve upgrades and new technologies maybe even more effecient rockets over the years/decade(s) that would make it like the comperision of basic S-300 to S-300V4/PMU which have a significant raise in performance compared to basic models.

    Yes, this where I was driving at. As far as LFTR goes, nothing is perfect and neither is LFTR (molten Thorium salts are still hazardous materials) however with this technology, if it's applied right with safety precautions (such as storing the compact LFTR separately from missile until it's on duty, with proper shielding, and used to protect the most strategically sensitive areas) it has amazing potential. Here's some more information about LFTR's:

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/03/16/477737/-More-on-why-we-need-the-Liquid-Fluoride-Thorium-Reactor

    ...On the same note a "Smart Car" sized LFTR could potentially be used for the PAK-DA, giving it unlimited range and saving plenty of weight and space for bombs, were jet fuel used to be!

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Werewolf on Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:01 pm

    Sounds rather unaffordable and waste of money to be used for one-way missiles that is also the reason why most missiles have the guidance on the launching plattform rather the "fire-forget" missiles which end to have pretty high costs compared with their effeciency and the capabilities of launching plattforms like Attackhelicopters for instance.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:46 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Sounds rather unaffordable and waste of money to be used for one-way missiles that is also the reason why most missiles have the guidance on the launching plattform rather the "fire-forget" missiles which end to have pretty high costs compared with their effeciency and the capabilities of launching plattforms like Attackhelicopters for instance.

    Hence why I said "for the strategically most sensitive areas", in no way am I calling for it to completely replace conventional fuel/propulsion.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:17 pm

    GarryB wrote:Of course the specs are what we are quoting... ICBM warheads coming in at a shallow angle do slow down a lot more so there is potential for the S-400 to possibly engage them... it would certainly be better than nothing.

    True, any chance is better than no chance at all... That being said, the sheer inertia generated by the MIRV would make it next to impossible to achieve a successful interception.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:46 pm

    Here is one thing I'd like to add;

    Won't the S-400 be able to fire the 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 missiles (from the S-500)? If so, this whole conversation is irrelevant because it will end off with the ability to engage MIRVs...

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:38 am

    True, any chance is better than no chance at all... That being said, the sheer inertia generated by the MIRV would make it next to impossible to achieve a successful interception.

    A nuclear warhead is a fairly delicate thing and with a closing speed of mach 13-15 or so most of the metal fragments in the S-400s warhead would do serious damage to any incoming warhead...

    Inertia will mean the warhead and its fragments will still hit the ground but any impact will likely reduce the effect of the warhead to impact damage only (ie no nuke explosion).

    Won't the S-400 be able to fire the 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 missiles (from the S-500)? If so, this whole conversation is irrelevant because it will end off with the ability to engage MIRVs...

    I suspect the S-400 and S-500 may operate together on occasion, but I doubt the S-400 batteries will introduce the S-500 missile as standard as the sensors and vehicles of the S-500 battery will likely be needed for full effectiveness.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:59 am

    GarryB wrote:
    True, any chance is better than no chance at all... That being said, the sheer inertia generated by the MIRV would make it next to impossible to achieve a successful interception.

    A nuclear warhead is a fairly delicate thing and with a closing speed of mach 13-15 or so most of the metal fragments in the S-400s warhead would do serious damage to any incoming warhead...

    Inertia will mean the warhead and its fragments will still hit the ground but any impact will likely reduce the effect of the warhead to impact damage only (ie no nuke explosion).

    Won't the S-400 be able to fire the 77N6-N and 77N6-N1 missiles (from the S-500)? If so, this whole conversation is irrelevant because it will end off with the ability to engage MIRVs...

    I suspect the S-400 and S-500 may operate together on occasion, but I doubt the S-400 batteries will introduce the S-500 missile as standard as the sensors and vehicles of the S-500 battery will likely be needed for full effectiveness.

    Yeah, hopefully that is what would happen... Having nuclear material scattered on the ground isn't exactly a dream, but it is a billion times better than the alternative!

    That's for clearing that up, it is what I figured!

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Viktor on Wed Sep 03, 2014 5:13 pm

    S-300Favorite range just got increase to 300km  thumbsup

    C-300 military exercise near Astrakhan "reflected" missile attacks and air raid

    Anti-aircraft missile system S-300 "Favorite" can hit different targets at ranges from a few kilometers - to 150, 200, 300 kilometers, depending on the type of elements of the family of S-300 and, in particular, the interceptor missiles.

    and new pics from Blog "Vestnik PVO"

    LINK

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:29 pm


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Viktor on Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:54 pm

    Nice thumbsup

    Calculations of the C-300 was struck more than 50 targets in exercises in Buryatia

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  George1 on Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:42 pm

    Russian troops in Kola Peninsula to get new S-400 missiles before yearend

    MOSCOW, September 11. /ITAR-TASS/. A base of air defense troops located in the Western Military District is expected to get a new S-400 Triumf missile complex (NATO reporting name: SA-21 Growler), the chief of the WMD press service said Thursday.

    “In the course of one month, WMD specialists will commission the new complex in the workshops of the manufacturer plant and will then do the trial testing with battle launches on a testing range in the southern Astrakhan region,” said Colonel Alexander Kochetkov, the chief of the press service.

    “The program of testing will include the incapacitation of targets on the ground, at low and high altitudes, as well as the evading and ballistic targets,” he said.

    At present, operating teams on the Kola base are rounding up a course of training to master the new equipment. Air defense forces of the WMD currently have various modifications of S-300 missile complexes on their tables of equipment, Col. Kochetkov said.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Viktor on Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:01 pm

    8th, 9th and hopefully (according to V.Putin from the end of 2013) 10th S-400 regiment will be delivered to Russian aerospace defense forces by the end of 2014 thumbsup


    Eighth regiment of S-400 "Triumph"

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:02 am

    Viktor wrote:8th, 9th and hopefully (according to V.Putin from the end of 2013) 10th S-400 regiment will be delivered to Russian aerospace defense forces by the end of 2014  thumbsup


    Eighth regiment of S-400 "Triumph"
    Great! Give it a few years and it will be the S-500... When that day comes I *might just* die.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Viktor on Sat Sep 13, 2014 9:42 am

    Mike E wrote:Great! Give it a few years and it will be the S-500... When that day comes I *might just* die.

    S-500 will certainly be the crown jewel in Russian PVO but Morfei might leave much bigger mark as it could be exported like nuts thus playing its role in the battlefield throughout world.

    Basicaly everything is interesting ... S-300V4, S-350, BUK-M3, new Tor with double the missiles and hit-to-kill missiles, Pancir-SM with double the missiles and range etc etc ....

    Every time a new air defense generation is put in the production a new one enters development phase. Circle must never be broken.

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