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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

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    magnumcromagnon
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:42 pm

    Werewolf wrote:Really?

    S-300 is already superior to any Patriot system, not even counting S-400.

    I got a chuckle when they compared the S-500 to the Patriot System. What? Are we gonna start comparing Lamborghini's and Ferrari's with Yugo's and Ford Pinto's lol?!?! Not to mention they're not even in the same class lol!

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:16 am

    Sujoy wrote:I am wondering how safe are Russian Missile Defense from a Cyber Attack .

    The Pentagon has released a report saying US Missile Defenses are vulnerable to a Cyber Attack

    http://itsecuritynews.info/2014/07/08/pentagon-confirms-that-missile-defenses-are-vulnerable-to-cyber-attack/

    Suffice , to say that both the U.S and China have the intention of carrying out cyber attacks against Russia .

    Hi Sujoy..

    Do not trust in any news or media that says a NATION missile defense can be at risk by a Cyber attack.
    What you see is American Propaganda ,creating an imaginary enemy FIRST , to later Justify their actions later.
    Simply US invent a Problem and later they propose the solution. WHAT US really wants is a total crackdown and limitation
    of the internet. So people can no longer have freedom of information.

    Cyber attack ,means an Internet Attack. And internet is only a Public CLub ,where people just pay a Company a monthly fee ,and they give you access to one network that the average world civilians connect. called world wide web or internet. But there are Private data clubs too.
    and you cannot access them with your normal WIndows PC. you need special hardware and software for that. This means that the defense industry is 100% safe and Hacker proof when it comes to their highly classified date.. A company public Relations website on internet is a totally different thing..just a public service. and those can be hacked... and the only people making noise about Cyber attacks is the ones that wants to crackdown on internet and limit its freedoms.  

    A quick example of the limitations a Cyber hacker will face trying to enter a Private Network of a defense industry. will be like trying to play a Playstation dvd game ,in a Xbox console.  Or like trying to record with your USB flash drive a video from a computer that only use Floppy disk to input data. Simply the software and hardware are totally not compatible and cannot communicate. The Banking Industry use also its own Special private "internet" and you cannot enter there by just loading a windows PC and writting stuff there. Not possible. All the Cyber attacks pandemonium you have heard on media ,only seeks to scare people and justify ,a crack down on internet freedoms ,to " keep you safe" .

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Sujoy on Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:55 am

    Vann7 wrote:
    Do not trust in any news or media that says a NATION missile defense can be at risk by a Cyber attack.

    While it's true that most of the media companies believe in propagating their own agenda , fact is that in the recent past U.S drones have been grounded after they were hit by a Virus .

    http://www.wired.com/2011/10/virus-hits-drone-fleet/

    Similarly , French Rafale jets were also grounded after they were hit by a Malware

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/4547649/French-fighter-planes-grounded-by-computer-virus.html

    Vann7 wrote:This means that the defense industry is 100% safe and Hacker proof when it comes to their highly classified date

    And yet Chinese hackers stole details of the F 35 , nuclear warhead and SAM systems from the U.S

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Vann7 on Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:32 pm



    While it's true that most of the media companies believe in propagating their own agenda , fact is that in the recent past U.S drones have been grounded after they were hit by a Virus .



    But that have nothing to do with Cyberhacking , but electronic countermeasures. Can you reprogram a drone software on the fly ?
    I really doubt it ,unless who wrote the program are monkeys.. All fake fake..  US wants to control the information on internet.. is that simple ,so they invent a disaster of chinese and talibans neutralizing their army technology with hackers so they can justify the freedom of information on the internet..


    Similarly , French Rafale jets were also grounded after they were hit by a Malware

    Obviously you do not understand what is internet. Viruses , Malware all those programs written for an specific Operating system..
    Windows 99% of the viruses and the others for Linux and Macs OS , also smartphones OS.  IF there is a malware inside a combat jet
    is because is either an inside job or a fabrication to justify greater internet controls . But it have nothing to do with internet. American Spy agencies load malicious programs in foreign powers hardware but this is not done hacking ,instead bribing hardware manufacturers ,to include malicious code in their software so they can spy. A USB flash drive for example,can have malicious hardware inside with malicious program (all done by the manufacturer of it) to spy the information people will read and load into the hardware. Is all an inside Job. This is why Russia ask for all its hardware to be done in Russia on its Defense Industry.. WHy is not a good idea that Any NATION politicians and leaders use commercial smartphones . That comes out of the box with cheats to spy on you..


    And yet Chinese hackers stole details of the F 35 ,  nuclear warhead and SAM systems from the U.S

    Total lies.. Not true.  As i told you is IMPOSSIBLE. To steal anything on a secure network that is not connected to the internet.  To steal Anything people need FIRST to either be present at the place if is something physical or be connected to it ,if it is data. And hackers cannot have access to information that is not connected to the internet public service. And most of this classified data are in computers that not even have an internet connection. totally isolated hardware. IF what you say was possible ,then there will be no need
    for Spies to physically travel to foreign nations to steal secrets.. For Cyber hackers to steal anything it have to be connected on Internet ,there is no other way.. if your internet connection fails.. you cannot visit this forum and get access to any data ,can you ? You need to be connected FIRST or physically present to the thing you want to steal , and all highly classified information is NOT connected to  public services like internet. and many times not even have computers and the information is all in papers on a secured office.

     Any hacks with viruses on defense industry or in any high security service or military is either propaganda to justify regulation of the internet or because it was an inside job like Malicious Hardware ,with malicious programs inside. It will be easier to just bribe the inventor and give you the information.. because connecting to secure networks is impossible ,unless is an inside job and that you bribe someone who work inisde and helps you  . But this have nothing to do with hackers ,but with treason. Like a Bank manager ,stealing money from its own bank.  Why Russia never had problems with foreign hackers stealing their secrets? Defense industry can be as safe as they want their companies to be.  But using American computers ,with american hardware or hardware from puppet states they control,is not exactly the best way to keep secrets hidden. Just look at Germany recent scandal .. they have an american spy at the top positions in defense industry.. and later the problems blamed in "hackers" .  Hackers is not the problem in the world ,but Corrupt powers seeking total control and that seek to spy on everyone and everything.

    So trust me when i tell you Computers security can be made 100% secure ,IF you want it and have the staff to create one. hackers is not the problem, The problem is corruption of Governments. Western PCs and internet was designed not only for sharing information but also for easy spying on others. This is not a hackers problem but working as was intended. Facebook format for example is designed for easy spying on people information by the US federal agencies, This is why i believe Russia could be incredibly rich if united with India that have good programmers and create a new personal Computer with a new internet with new communication protocols ,made 100% for people privacy and security in mind. it will be hackers proof and could not be spied by the west.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:18 pm

    Computers can not be made 100% secure, at least for right now. Saying that is like saying computers can be completely bug-free, it simply isn't true.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:13 pm

    A computer can be 100% secure... simply keep it locked up in a steel safe and let no one else have access to it and keep it under 24 hour guard.

    not very useful however.

    Network access makes the computers vulnerable, but also most useful.

    Back doors like wireless connections and blue tooth add threat dimensions, but at the end of the day no network is totally secure and to make it so will slow it down and limit it to the point where it will not be useful.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  AlfaT8 on Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:45 pm

    GarryB wrote:A computer can be 100% secure... simply keep it locked up in a steel safe and let no one else have access to it and keep it under 24 hour guard.

    not very useful however.

    Network access makes the computers vulnerable, but also most useful.

    Back doors like wireless connections and blue tooth add threat dimensions, but at the end of the day no network is totally secure and to make it so will slow it down and limit it to the point where it will not be useful.
    Its still being researched, but there's a chance that it might actually be in us.
    Malware can infect system using Inaudible Audio signals
    German researchers demonstrated how a malware can infect system in air gapped networks and transfer stolen data using Inaudible Audio signals.
    The shocking news that it is possible to infect a computer with Inaudible Audio signals is circulating within the security community has been circulating for several weeks between denials and confirmations.
    In October the security researcher Dragos Ruiu described a malware codenamed badBIOS characterized by the capability to infect targeted machines using sound waves as transmission vector, immediate was the skeptical reaction of the world security community.
    http://securityaffairs.co/wordpress/20182/hacking/malware-inaudible-audio-signals.html

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Vann7 on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:53 am

    Computers can not be made 100% secure, at least for right now. Saying that is like saying computers can be completely bug-free, it simply isn't true.

    yes ,they can. there is no contradiction between bug free computers and 100% safe computers from hacks. Bugs will always be present ,humans are not perfect.. but if you remove all ways of comunication of a computer.. ie.. Internet , USB ports , and DVD drive ,you cannot remove data from it.. as simple as that. neither you can infect the computer with any virus that comes from outside. Since again is isolated PC.  Usually in any company , the payrol of every employee ,is stored in a master Server ,and this server no one can enter but the company administrator only. And the only way to access its information is if you are in front of the computer and have the passwords to enter on it.
    So its IMPOSSible to steal anything from Isolated computers.. This computers even can be connected to hundreds of other computers inside the company and still you can make it impossible to steal any important data. Computer security can be made as strong as you want it.

    Of course such servers cannot connect to facebook ,or navigate internet but who cares? Is not a social computer but a private server with highly classified data. and Hackers no matter how good they are ,cannot steal anything from it.. Unless they work inside the company and the administrator of the server allow the hackers to enter the server room.. in other words an inside Job. But this is not a problem of hackers but corruption ,something different.

    [quote="AlfaT8"]

    Malware can infect system using Inaudible Audio signals
    German researchers demonstrated how a malware can infect system in air gapped networks and transfer stolen data using Inaudible Audio signals. The shocking news that it is possible to infect a computer with Inaudible Audio signals is circulating within the security community has been circulating for several weeks between denials and confirmations.

    Pure fantasy man.. For 2 computers to share data ..  Regardless of the technique used.. they both needs to understand each other.
    If for example a chinese man speak to you ,you will not understand what he says. So Both computers needs to speak the same language for ANY comunication to be possible. Period.  So even if the computer both were connected directly by a Network cable.. if they speak different languages.. they will NOT understand what the other says.  A virus written for Windows PCs will not work in UNIX operating systems..or any other..  

    Forget the so called AUdio Hacks to discretely steal information. lets make it more easy..You could even have the world greatest CYberhacker in front a computer and give him the passwords he will need, to enter the network and if he do not understand the language the computer use and its operating system ,he will do  NOTHING. ZERO, nada.
    All his Computer knowledge will be worth of shit. He will not understand how it works. If for example the computer have a Custom made operating system ,that he never saw before. He will need Inside Help from the administrator to tell him/her this new comptuer system works.. but if the computer have no ports for communication ,for portable storage devices then still he is out of luck. People have been truly fooled by the so called Cyberhackers that will shut down internet ,or start a world war 3 ,or destroying a nuclear reactor or stealing F-35 secrets. is just total lies. not possible.. Unless it was an inside job.  

    Russia can even take things to a new level in security ,just for the fun of it.. but nothing of this is need . They can create their own Computers ,processors ,computer hardware,and programming language ,using their own custom communication protocols and invent their own "internet" called RUSSIAnet.. that is private and do not connect to outside countries.. only connect inside Russia and with Russia defense industry companies only.. So you can take an army of hackers in the west.. and they will not even know how to turn on the computer. All their computer knowledge will be worthless because is an entirely new system hardware with new rules. As I said Computer security can be done 100% secure . Cyberhackers is not the problem , Internet lack of security is working as intended.. it was designed for western spy agencies ,not to secure people information but to make it easy for them to steal everyone information ,including companies data.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:11 pm

    GarryB wrote:A computer can be 100% secure... simply keep it locked up in a steel safe and let no one else have access to it and keep it under 24 hour guard.

    not very useful however.

    Network access makes the computers vulnerable, but also most useful.

    Back doors like wireless connections and blue tooth add threat dimensions, but at the end of the day no network is totally secure and to make it so will slow it down and limit it to the point where it will not be useful.

    I have a question Garry, it's not related to viruses but with the creation of Zirconium scramjet cruise missile, what's the likeliness that scramjets find their way on to S-400/S-500 SAM missiles? Will it allow the missiles to have increased speed and range but with smaller dimensions, or is this just pure fantasy and not applicable to SAM missile fundamental properties?

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:17 pm

    "Yes, they can." Maybe in your dream world. Yes, computers can be made MORE secure, but not perfectly secure. Like I mentioned earlier; it simply isn't true.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:37 pm

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:A computer can be 100% secure... simply keep it locked up in a steel safe and let no one else have access to it and keep it under 24 hour guard.

    not very useful however.

    Network access makes the computers vulnerable, but also most useful.

    Back doors like wireless connections and blue tooth add threat dimensions, but at the end of the day no network is totally secure and to make it so will slow it down and limit it to the point where it will not be useful.

    I have a question Garry, it's not related to viruses but with the creation of Zirconium scramjet cruise missile, what's the likeliness that scramjets find their way on to S-400/S-500 SAM missiles? Will it allow the missiles to have increased speed and range but with smaller dimensions, or is this just pure fantasy and not applicable to SAM missile fundamental properties?

    Funny you mention that. I've been thinking about the same thing, S-400/S-500 like missiles with either Ramjets or Scramjets. As with other missiles, throwing out the Solid rocket would increase range, possibly increase speed, and definitely shrink the size (all depending on the design).

    Scramjets characteristics are still relatively unknown, so Ramjets would be the safer bet. Ramjets also allow for the missile to throttle down to around Mach 1, which could improve range dramatically.

    As for size, look at the MBDA Meteor. It has an air-launched range of over 320 km, and weighs only ~400 lb. (For comparison, the RVV-SD weighs about the same, but can only travel 110 km, albeit at a slightly higher speed.) 

    The K-77ME will have a Ramjet, and possibly a Scramjet in the future. (It has an air-launched range of around 250 km.)

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mindstorm on Sun Jul 13, 2014 9:56 am


    Mike E wrote: It has an air-launched range of over 320 km, and weighs only ~400 lb. (For comparison, the RVV-SD weighs about the same, but can only travel 110 km, albeit at a slightly higher speed.)



    And at what point someone have managed to magically "increase" Meteor AAM's maximum engagement range of about three times ?  Laughing Laughing 

    I cannot even only dare to image the "source" for that ......... Rolling Eyes


    Even more interesting would be to open a little debate on the real scientifical "root" of the technology and the layout's concepts at the basis of this little toy and where it came from in the first place.

    I can bet that ,exactly as in the past for the almost entire scientifical foundations of the diffraction field's computational models (at the basis of practically all pasted and today "stealth" products designs worldwide ), the outcome will not perfectly meet the good taste of western fans  Laughing  Laughing 



     



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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Sun Jul 13, 2014 10:07 am

    Holy Crap!!! My bad!!! I must of been confused when I write that.

    EDIT; I think that figure is in "optimal conditions" as in going minimum speed (Mach 1?) at high altitude. Its Ramjet lets it throttle down, so that makes sense.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:17 am

    I have a question Garry, it's not related to viruses but with the creation of Zirconium scramjet cruise missile, what's the likeliness that scramjets find their way on to S-400/S-500 SAM missiles? Will it allow the missiles to have increased speed and range but with smaller dimensions, or is this just pure fantasy and not applicable to SAM missile fundamental properties?

    It is all about design compromise. Ramjets are like jet engines and are relatively efficient... though for use in aircraft the key is re usability, so a jet aircraft is more efficient than a rocket powered aircraft for day to day flights. when the goal is to get to space however the jet just can't give enough speed so the Space Shuttle and Buran are rocket powered, which is expensive but to get to orbital speeds there really is no current alternative in terms of jet engines.

    With designs of missiles low cost becomes critical as these engines will only be used once, so rocket and ramjet and now scramjet are the three competing options. In terms of volume a ramjet requires internal space to burn the fuel, though modern Russian ramjets use that internal space to fit a rocket engine to get the missile up to speed before the ramjet is started which means multi stage rockets are not so critical, though technically it is a multi stage rocket/ramjet.

    The critical technology however is scramjet engines which in theory have no top speed, yet are fundamentally simple devices with few moving parts and no blades or shafts or "turbine" sections.

    The huge advantage of a scramjet is the ability to throttle.

    Solid fuel rockets are baked like cakes. to make them lighter they have the centre hollow, so instead of burning from one end to the other like a fuse, they burn from the centre outward, which means the walls of the rocket can be made thinner and lighter because as the rocket burns the pressure pushes out sideways is supported by the remaining fuel left to be burnt. Making the hold up the middle star shaped increases the surface area of the rocket fuel burning. the inner layer that burns first is high energy fast burning fuel generating high thrust to launch the missile and accelerate it rapidly to high speed. the next layer is slower burning that takes much longer to burn and does not accelerate the missile, it just allows it to cruise without losing speed for a few minutes.

    A missile has a peak speed where drag overcomes the thrust and so any extra thrust is largely wasted... once the missile gets to that speed then continuing to burn at full thrust is a waste of energy. Simple calculations can be made to determine how long the high energy fuel should burn with the remaining fuel being much slower burning to maintain speed for much much longer and greatly extending flight range.

    For S-400 et all the calculations are made easier because they are all ground launched and start from zero speed.

    An AAM on the other hand might be launched from a hovering helo, or a high flying MiG-31 at mach 2.6.

    Ramjets are efficient high speed jet engines where air is sucked in, fuel is added and burned and is blasted out the back generating thrust. You can throttle up and down depending on where you are and where you want to go.

    Ramjets were tested on the I-15 Polikarpov Biplane and don't need to be moving through the air at very high speed to work, though obviously they are most efficient at higher speeds.

    Solid fuel technology has improved significantly, so the Solid rocket SA-11 and SA-17 replaced the rocket ramjet SA-6 in service some time ago. For very long range however the turbojet powered Granit has been replaced by the ramjet powered Onyx... the range is shorter, but the missile is about 4 tons lighter too... the Granit is 7 tons and the Onyx is about 2.5 tons in the air launched model.

    Scramjets offer even higher speed and efficient use of fuel with the added benefit of a throttle, but the main problems remain volume and of course the need for rocket launch.

    Creating a scramjet S-400 likely wouldn't make it smaller or lighter, so I doubt they will bother, but for very long range very high speed missiles scramjet propulsion will probably be the mode of choice.

    Scramjets characteristics are still relatively unknown, so Ramjets would be the safer bet. Ramjets also allow for the missile to throttle down to around Mach 1, which could improve range dramatically.

    A scramjet is merely a ramjet that is designed so that the fuel can be burned at supersonic speed. The intake ramp on an F-16 was simplified and fixed which is what limits it to mach 2 or less. The intake ramp contracts at high speed and reduces the amount of air coming in the front of the aircraft at high speed. With its simplified fixed ramp the F-16 can't go faster than mach 2 because the air coming in is coming in too fast and would choke its engine. A scramjet on the other hand could take air coming in at any speed and still produce thrust.

    the ramjets tested on the I-15 biplane increased flight speed by something like 85km/h and could be operated at speeds as low as 100km/h.

    Like any engine aircraft combination certain configurations will be efficient, so you might find that a missile with a ramjet engine might operate best at around mach 2.5 or so, but scramjets would likely operate most efficiently above mach 5-6.

    The Russians put a scramjet engine on the nose of an SA-5 SAM which replaced the warhead and guidance section with a small scramjet engine and fuel, so the missile is launched... its solid rocket boosters burn and fall away, the main rockets burn till the missile gets to about 15,000 m altitude and mach 5, when the scramjet engine on the nose of the missile is started. It accelerates the entire missile from mach 5 to mach 6.5 and burns for about 180 seconds... in other words about 3 minutes.

    In those three minutes of burn time when the small scramjet operates the missile covers about 350km.

    The limit of a turboprop engine is the speed of sound, the limit of a turbojet engine is about mach 3 in conventional mode. The limit of a ramjet engine is mach 5-6 or so. The limit for a scramjet is heat. If you had materials that could take the heat and speed a scramjet can take you to orbital speeds... into space... though in space it would no longer function of course.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:05 pm

    Not in any way do I doubt Scramjets advantages. However, they still remain relatively untested, and aren't in service with anyone quite yet. Also, the minimum speed requirement of ~ Mach 5 isn't exactly a good thing. A Scramjet missile would need a very large and powerful solid-rocket first stage. 

    GarryB, do you know why SAMs never implement "Aero-spikes" as found on the Trident series of ICBMs? They are said to improve aerodynamics by up-to/over 50%, which would result in a considerably greater range.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  etaepsilonk on Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:18 pm

    Mike E wrote:
    Scramjets characteristics are still relatively unknown, so Ramjets would be the safer bet. Ramjets also allow for the missile to throttle down to around Mach 1, which could improve range dramatically.

    Is that so?

    From what I know, it's the other way around, efficiency increases with ram pressure, which is proportionate to speed. Correct me if I'm wrong  Wink


    "GarryB, do you know why SAMs never implement "Aero-spikes" as found on the Trident series of ICBMs? They are said to improve aerodynamics by up-to/over 50%, which would result in a considerably greater range."

    Dunno exactly, but maybe high alfa angles have something to do with it?

    ------------------



    To Garryb:
    "Creating a scramjet S-400 likely wouldn't make it smaller or lighter, so I doubt they will bother, but for very long range very high speed missiles scramjet propulsion will probably be the mode of choice."

    I'd like to add that current scramjets able to emulate the performance of 48N6's/40N6's rocket engines are not yet available, even prototypes.
    The best performing S-J, X-51 "waverider", goes only to about mach 6, while even middle tier s-400 missile has a burnout speed of about 8 mach, quite a significant difference. And I'm not even talking about 40N6 with ~12 mach Smile

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:26 pm

    Yes and no, while Scramjets have been tested, they've never been put to use.

    Scramjets do use a lot of use, with the benefit being speed. I would guess Ramjets are less efficient around Mach 5 (Scramjet speed), but more so at lower speeds (for obvious reasons) (I need a second opinion on this, correct me if I'm wrong).

    Could be, I'm not sure. From what I've read, Spikes wouldn't be a problem at high angles of attack because of their small size and surface area.

    Scramjets aren't "there yet", but when they are, you can expect big things.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:40 am

    Also, the minimum speed requirement of ~ Mach 5 isn't exactly a good thing. A Scramjet missile would need a very large and powerful solid-rocket first stage.

    There are no hard limits of speed for scramjets... the SA-5 test just started testing at mach 5 because that is the normal flight speed of the SA-5 so that is when it started operating.

    The engines in the SR-71 are a good example of what can be expected.

    they work as standard turbojets for takeoff and landing, but as they accelerate to high speed bypass air that is sucked in the intake but goes around the outside rather than through the engine is increased. This air going around the engine is called bypass air, just like on a turbofan, engine, but in this case when the SR-71 is flying at mach 3.5 almost no air is flowing through its turbojet engines which produce almost no thrust. The bypass air has fuel added and operates like a ramjet and produces the thrust to propel the aircraft.

    Having a variable cycle engine is likely the future.

    In fact an onboard store of fuel and oxygen and the ability to close the intakes could be used for a space plane.

    Use normal jet propulsion to take off from a runway with air sucked in the intakes and fuel used with the air coming in the intakes. Climb and accelerate to supersonic speed and close off the turbojet engine with bypass air acting like a scramjet with air still coming in the intakes and accelerate to mach 26... turn to a flight path to take you out of the atmosphere and close off the intakes and start feeding the O2 and burn it with the fuel and you pretty much have a rocket plane. So turbojet, scramjet, rocket propulsion.

    GarryB, do you know why SAMs never implement "Aero-spikes" as found on the Trident series of ICBMs? They are said to improve aerodynamics by up-to/over 50%, which would result in a considerably greater range.

    Not the best solution... an aerospike is used on missiles with rounded noses of poor aerodynamic design for supersonic flight. Trident has a round nose because of the design constraints to pack as much missile in as small a tube as possible so rather than an efficient long pointy nose is has a stumpy rounded nose which would be aweful for supersonic flight.

    Another application is IR guided SAMs and AAMs because the IR optical sensor is most efficient with a rounded nose which greatly increases nose induced drag.

    The example would be Igla with its aerospike to improve performance without compromising the shape of the nose optical port.

    In comparison the Mistral has a pointed nose which effects its IR sensitivity and performance.

    Very simply the Russians went for a good optical sensor performance and good flight performance,while the French compromised IR sensor performance for aerodynamic performance.

    From what I know, it's the other way around, efficiency increases with ram pressure, which is proportionate to speed. Correct me if I'm wrong

    It is a bit like a car... in top gear you move most efficiently using the least fuel... the worst performance is low speed accelerating, the best performance is top speed cruising with a low throttle setting to maintain speed by countering drag.

    I'd like to add that current scramjets able to emulate the performance of 48N6's/40N6's rocket engines are not yet available, even prototypes.
    The best performing S-J, X-51 "waverider", goes only to about mach 6, while even middle tier s-400 missile has a burnout speed of about 8 mach, quite a significant difference. And I'm not even talking about 40N6 with ~12 mach

    Very true, but the key is that scramjets are in their infancy and have enormous potential.... in a range of applications.

    I would guess Ramjets are less efficient around Mach 5 (Scramjet speed), but more so at lower speeds (for obvious reasons) (I need a second opinion on this, correct me if I'm wrong).

    Ramjets choke on supersonic air, just like turbojets do. The fastest flying turbojet engine is the engine in the MiG-31 where all the thrust is derived from the turbojet engine. The problem is that as you approach Mach 3 the incoming air needs to be slowed down so when it goes through the engine in the hot section where fuel is added it is subsonic so the fuel burns properly. To achieve this the intake narrows and reduces the airflow into the engine, which slows it down to subsonic speed. Of course the limitation of speed of the engine is how fast it can push this air and the burnt fuel out the back... the speed it pushes it out determines how much thrust is produced... if the air through the hot section becomes supersonic it will flameout and stall and the air blown out the rear will greatly lose heat and energy and thrust will go down.

    It is the same for a ramjet... if the air going into the hot section becomes supersonic it will flame out and stall and thrust will be lost.

    Most ramjets are efficient in the mach 3-4 range but not much more... they still need a certain volume of air flowing through them to generate thrust to maintain flight.

    With a scramjet the airflow is still controlled but can be allowed to go through much faster including supersonic or faster through the hot section meaning a lot more thrust and much higher speed.

    the limitations on scramjets is heat... the insides can melt and the external surfaces of the aircraft can melt due to the high temperatures generated in high speed flight.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  magnumcromagnon on Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:05 am

    GarryB wrote:The limitations on scramjets is heat... the insides can melt and the external surfaces of the aircraft can melt due to the high temperatures generated in high speed flight.

    What's the likeliness that Space Shuttle-style heat tiles make their way on to scramjet vehicles?

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:31 am

    Thank you for all that info! 

    I simply mean that Scramjets have to be accelerated in order to function. This isn't that big of a problem for missiles, but is for larger/heaver planes etc. 

    The SR-71 really was a revolution, that engine technology was way ahead of its time. (Thank you Kelly!!!)

    I completely agree, we will be seeing much more in the variable cycle area. (Just to let you know, I know the basics of Turbojets and jet engines in general. I used to know a TON on Scramjets, but it all came out of me.)

    Ok, thank you for answering that for me. I guess it is more of a stop-gap solution than anything else. If I remember right, India is said to have a better solution in which the rocket somehow ionizes (?) the air in front of it, supposedly increase aero properties by ~45% .

    That sounds reasonable, especially when Scramjets are "popular".

    Heck, I feel Ramjets are still undervalued! (Yes I know, Scramjets are basically the same thing.)

    That's is one advantage of Scramjets, they probably don't create as much drag. (By not slowing down the incoming air, causes air around the engine to "reroute".

    Heat will always be an issue, but there are many ways of (for the most part) overcoming it. Look at MIRVs, they travel at Mach 10! (Albeit with heat shields.)

    (I found the Indian aero technology, here it is; http://www.domainb.com/aero/mil_avi/miss_muni/20080910_Indian_technology.html )

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:33 am

    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The limitations on scramjets is heat... the insides can melt and the external surfaces of the aircraft can melt due to the high temperatures generated in high speed flight.

    What's the likeliness that Space Shuttle-style heat tiles make their way on to scramjet vehicles?

    Very plausible, if not, engineers will find a better solution.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  etaepsilonk on Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:57 am

    GarryB wrote:Not the best solution... an aerospike is used on missiles with rounded noses of poor aerodynamic design for supersonic flight. Trident has a round nose because of the design constraints to pack as much missile in as small a tube as possible so rather than an efficient long pointy nose is has a stumpy rounded nose which would be aweful for supersonic flight.

    Another application is IR guided SAMs and AAMs because the IR optical sensor is most efficient with a rounded nose which greatly increases nose induced drag.

    The example would be Igla with its aerospike to improve performance without compromising the shape of the nose optical port.

    In comparison the Mistral has a pointed nose which effects its IR sensitivity and performance.

    Very simply the Russians went for a good optical sensor performance and good flight performance,while the French compromised IR sensor performance for aerodynamic performance.

    Yeah, seems true enough Smile


    ----------------------------
    magnumcromagnon wrote:
    GarryB wrote:The limitations on scramjets is heat... the insides can melt and the external surfaces of the aircraft can melt due to the high temperatures generated in high speed flight.

    What's the likeliness that Space Shuttle-style heat tiles make their way on to scramjet vehicles?

    Eh, I think space shuttle's (and other space carriers', actually) tiles are built for quite a different purpose. That is, to be used not in flight, but in descent.
    And that descent is rough- flying at near 90 degrees AoA while slowing down from mach 20 to mach 2-3. I don't think the near future scramjet vehicles need that kind of strength yet.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:35 am

    Does anyone have any thoughts on that Indian aerodynamic feature? 

    "Agni III, which is India's longest-range missile with a capability of striking targets 3,500 km away, may now have an extended range of around 5,000 km thanks to a unique solution discovered by Indian scientists at the prestigious Indian Institute of Science (IISc) here. The technology will increase the range of not just missiles but also other satellite launch vehicles.
    The technology also has the exciting possibility of reducing the risk of occurrence of a Columbia space shuttle-type of tragic accident.
    The enhanced range of an Indian re-entry vehicle or missile will now be due to a special-purpose coating of chromium metal applied to the blunt nose cone of missiles and launch vehicles, for which international patents have been sought for by the team of IISc scientists.

    ''Objects such as missiles fly at hypersonic velocities which are more than five times the speed of sound and encounter atmospheric drag because of friction. The chromium coating works by adding temporary heat and pushing the stagnating gas away to create an easier path,'' G Jagadeesh, an assistant professor at the IISc here said.
    The findings of the IISc team, which also includes Vinayak Kulkarni of IIT (Guwahati) and GM Hegde, E Arunan and KPJ Reddy, have been reported in the latest issue of the Physics of Fluids journal published by the American Institute of Physics.
    Laboratory experiments have shown that atmospheric drag because of the coating fell by 47% and Jagadeesh said a ''conservative estimate'' was that this would result in range going up by at least 40%.
    ''The measurements show about 47% reduction in the drag coefficient for a 60° apex angle blunt cone in a Mach 8 flow of 3.4  MJ/kg specific enthalpy,'' reads an extract from the article in the journal.
    Scientists say the breakthrough also has potential to avert disasters of the type that struck space shuttle Columbia in 2003, which resulted in the death of seven astronauts, including Indian-born astronaut Kalpana Chawla. The shuttle burned out as it was re-entering the earth's atmosphere as there were problems it's thermal protection system.
    The special-purpose coating developed at the IISc could likely replace the tiles and panels which currently protect orbiters against extreme heat during re-entry into the atmosphere.
    ''The coating evaporates once the object has re-entered the atmosphere. This novel method is path-breaking because additional energy is not required to reduce drag; objects which travel into space need to carry a much lower fuel load,'' Jagadeesh said."

    - From domain-b, I posted the complete address earlier.

    Anyway, I think it seems like a great idea. These "coatings" could be applied to all Russian SAMs, and really help them "reach out" to farther distances.  russia 

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:45 pm

    What's the likeliness that Space Shuttle-style heat tiles make their way on to scramjet vehicles?

    Ablative tiles could be useful for one use systems like rockets, but for reusable craft like the shuttle they are a pain in the backside... after every flight they need to be very carefully examined for wear or cracks with old tiles replaced.

    A better solution would be to pump slush hydrogen fuel through the aircraft skin... it is very cold and would take the heat out of any surface... very much the same as if you throw a plastic bottle on the fire it will quickly melt and catch fire itself. Now take a similar bottle and fill it with water and throw it on the fire... the heat from the fire is absorbed by the water so the plastic does not get hot enough to melt because the water draws the heat away from the plastic.

    I simply mean that Scramjets have to be accelerated in order to function. This isn't that big of a problem for missiles, but is for larger/heaver planes etc.

    Certainly with a scramjet... with a heat limit rather than a speed limit the faster you can accelerate it the better... a rocket engine will accelerate it faster than it can accelerate on its own.

    Even a pulse detonation engine can operate from stationary, but becomes rather more efficient as the aircraft moves faster. It is just like gears and internal combustion engines... very low gears and cold engines reduce efficiency and performance.

    Heck, I feel Ramjets are still undervalued! (Yes I know, Scramjets are basically the same thing.)

    A scramjet is a type of ramjet... think of it in terms of turbojets... an old end of WWII turbojet engine is still a turbojet engine. Comparing it to a modern turbojet engine and you could almost say they are different engines but the basic functionality is different. Without a variable ramp air intake a turbojet from a late WWII plane would stall at supersonic speed.. the same with a ramjet and a scramjet.

    Obviously ramjets are incredibly simple, scramjets are slightly more complex, but until the ramjet is operating at very high speed the combustion will be subsonic anyway so a scramjet and a ramjet will be identical. It is only when the ramjet loses thrust and the scramjet continues to burn fuel supersonically and generates rather more thrust than any ramjet can generate that the differences become obvious.

    That's is one advantage of Scramjets, they probably don't create as much drag. (By not slowing down the incoming air, causes air around the engine to "reroute".

    The Scramjet at any speed can have the air intake wide open which means higher airflow, higher exhaust speed and rather more thrust.

    Heat will always be an issue, but there are many ways of (for the most part) overcoming it. Look at MIRVs, they travel at Mach 10! (Albeit with heat shields.)

    The period of time they travel at mach 10 is fairly short as they fall through the atmosphere... if we assume the atmosphere is only significant in terms of drag up to about 50km then we are talking about less than 20 seconds of reentry.

    And that descent is rough- flying at near 90 degrees AoA while slowing down from mach 20 to mach 2-3. I don't think the near future scramjet vehicles need that kind of strength yet.

    Good point... the space shuttle uses its wings and lower surface area as a sort of aerobrake, so it does rapidly heat up. Importantly the angle of entry into the atmosphere is critical... too steep and it gets too hot and you burn up. Not steep enough and you skip like a stone on flat water back up into space.

    For high speed flight there are areas of the airframe that will be subjected to continuous friction heat... a Mach 2.86 the canopy of the MiG-31 can get to 70 degree Celsius... other external parts like the wing root get much hotter and cannot be made of Aluminium or it will melt.

    ''The coating evaporates once the object has re-entered the atmosphere. This novel method is path-breaking because additional energy is not required to reduce drag; objects which travel into space need to carry a much lower fuel load,'' Jagadeesh said."

    If the coating evapourates on reentry then how can it operate as a substitute for heat tiles?

    I am skeptical and would want rather more information directly from the people developing the technology.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Mike E on Wed Jul 16, 2014 5:08 pm

    GarryB wrote:
    What's the likeliness that Space Shuttle-style heat tiles make their way on to scramjet vehicles?

    Ablative tiles could be useful for one use systems like rockets, but for reusable craft like the shuttle they are a pain in the backside... after every flight they need to be very carefully examined for wear or cracks with old tiles replaced.

    A better solution would be to pump slush hydrogen fuel through the aircraft skin... it is very cold and would take the heat out of any surface... very much the same as if you throw a plastic bottle on the fire it will quickly melt and catch fire itself. Now take a similar bottle and fill it with water and throw it on the fire... the heat from the fire is absorbed by the water so the plastic does not get hot enough to melt because the water draws the heat away from the plastic.

    I simply mean that Scramjets have to be accelerated in order to function. This isn't that big of a problem for missiles, but is for larger/heaver planes etc.

    Certainly with a scramjet... with a heat limit rather than a speed limit the faster you can accelerate it the better... a rocket engine will accelerate it faster than it can accelerate on its own.

    Even a pulse detonation engine can operate from stationary, but becomes rather more efficient as the aircraft moves faster. It is just like gears and internal combustion engines... very low gears and cold engines reduce efficiency and performance.

    Heck, I feel Ramjets are still undervalued! (Yes I know, Scramjets are basically the same thing.)

    A scramjet is a type of ramjet... think of it in terms of turbojets... an old end of WWII turbojet engine is still a turbojet engine. Comparing it to a modern turbojet engine and you could almost say they are different engines but the basic functionality is different. Without a variable ramp air intake a turbojet from a late WWII plane would stall at supersonic speed.. the same with a ramjet and a scramjet.

    Obviously ramjets are incredibly simple, scramjets are slightly more complex, but until the ramjet is operating at very high speed the combustion will be subsonic anyway so a scramjet and a ramjet will be identical. It is only when the ramjet loses thrust and the scramjet continues to burn fuel supersonically and generates rather more thrust than any ramjet can generate that the differences become obvious.

    That's is one advantage of Scramjets, they probably don't create as much drag. (By not slowing down the incoming air, causes air around the engine to "reroute".

    The Scramjet at any speed can have the air intake wide open which means higher airflow, higher exhaust speed and rather more thrust.

    Heat will always be an issue, but there are many ways of (for the most part) overcoming it. Look at MIRVs, they travel at Mach 10! (Albeit with heat shields.)

    The period of time they travel at mach 10 is fairly short as they fall through the atmosphere... if we assume the atmosphere is only significant in terms of drag up to about 50km then we are talking about less than 20 seconds of reentry.

    And that descent is rough- flying at near 90 degrees AoA while slowing down from mach 20 to mach 2-3. I don't think the near future scramjet vehicles need that kind of strength yet.

    Good point... the space shuttle uses its wings and lower surface area as a sort of aerobrake, so it does rapidly heat up. Importantly the angle of entry into the atmosphere is critical... too steep and it gets too hot and you burn up. Not steep enough and you skip like a stone on flat water back up into space.

    For high speed flight there are areas of the airframe that will be subjected to continuous friction heat... a Mach 2.86 the canopy of the MiG-31 can get to 70 degree Celsius... other external parts like the wing root get much hotter and cannot be made of Aluminium or it will melt.

    ''The coating evaporates once the object has re-entered the atmosphere. This novel method is path-breaking because additional energy is not required to reduce drag; objects which travel into space need to carry a much lower fuel load,'' Jagadeesh said."

    If the coating evapourates on reentry then how can it operate as a substitute for heat tiles?

    I am skeptical and would want rather more information directly from the people developing the technology.

    I agree on your second point, about using rockets to get the Scramjet "up to speed". Hopefully variable cycle engines will solve this problem soon enough. 

    Yeah, what I meant to say is that Ramjets have never been fully utilized like Turbofans (for example). (I knew the differences already, but maybe other people will learn.)

    That is true, but MIRVs also have to travel though the thick atmosphere, unlike missiles which might have a booster to get it "up high".
    .
    I don't see it replacing heat tiles, as they would have to reapply after every flight. However, I do see its potential when it comes to reducing drag, which is almost invaluable. (Agni III, which is India's longest-range missile with a capability of striking targets 3,500 km away, may now have an extended range of around 5,000 km thanks to a unique solution discovered by Indian scientists at the prestigious Indian Institute of Science (IISc) here.) Those 1500 km are a huge deal.

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