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    S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

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    AlfaT8
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  AlfaT8 on Tue May 07, 2013 6:05 pm

    medo wrote:I wonder how many Nebo-M complexes they got up to now.
    Good question, and if they do have them where are they stationed? study

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Viktor on Tue May 07, 2013 6:17 pm

    medo wrote:I wonder how many Nebo-M complexes they got up to now.

    I think that one per S-400 regiment. That would give about about 4-5 up to now just for S-400 system.

    Nebo-M is also intended (I dont know if it is made) for S-300V4 and if the plans for 9 S-300V4 brigades until 2020 are correct

    that would mean up to 36 Nebo-M complex just for S-300V4.

    All in all for S-400 and S-300V4 if the numbers mentioned in the press are correct that would mean that till 2020:

    - 28 Nebo-M for 28 S-400 regiments

    - 36 Nebo-M for 36 S-300V4 regiments

    That would make 64 NEBO-M complex by 2020. Numbers of other radars types that should enter service till 2020 is many times higher.

    Anyway for this year it is planed about 20 unspecified radar types to enter ADF.


    Moto from Almaz-Antej factory: Peaceful sky - is our business ! russia




    Stealthflanker
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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Stealthflanker on Tue May 14, 2013 9:01 pm

    Viktor wrote:
    Moto from Almaz-Antej factory: Peaceful sky - is our business ! russia




    hmm what's that dark grey missile at the front of the motto banner ?

    It's kinda similar shape as the 2nd Stage of 9M83 missile for S-300V's but kinda different with small canard perhaps at its nose.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Sujoy on Wed May 15, 2013 7:01 am

    Stealthflanker wrote:
    hmm what's that dark grey missile at the front of the motto banner ?

    It should be the 48N6 .


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Viktor on Wed May 15, 2013 10:17 am

    Thing is that Russians when making stuff always make 100 variation of the same thing (no matter what that is)

    during development and after (while developing modernization) and there you can really see anything.

    This missile looks like 48N6 added with extra pair of fins at the top and with some kind of smaller 9M83 nozzles attached to it.

    It looks very cool though.

    Sharp eye stealthflanker.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Stealthflanker on Thu May 16, 2013 12:35 am

    Viktor wrote:Thing is that Russians when making stuff always make 100 variation of the same thing (no matter what that is)

    during development and after (while developing modernization) and there you can really see anything.

    This missile looks like 48N6 added with extra pair of fins at the top and with some kind of smaller 9M83 nozzles attached to it.

    It looks very cool though.

    Sharp eye stealthflanker.

    I see, and thanks.

    Anyway it's really exciting to see. Still wondering what's that developmental missile for.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Viktor on Fri May 17, 2013 11:45 am

    New self propelled TEL (51P6A) for S-400 system





    And many more interesting pictures LINK

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  medo on Fri May 17, 2013 2:23 pm

    Excellent. I wonder which unit will get them first.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Arrow on Sun May 19, 2013 11:42 am

    Russian air defense system is only strong in the Moscow and Petersburg area.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  bantugbro on Sun May 19, 2013 2:03 pm

    Arrow wrote:Russian air defense system is only strong in the Moscow and Petersburg area.

    What is your point?

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Department Of Defense on Sun May 19, 2013 3:56 pm

    Arrow wrote:Russian air defense system is only strong in the Moscow and Petersburg area.

    I assume by the word strong you mean "Potent" . Yes , the air defense system in other parts of Russia is fragile . BUT that can be said about US or Chinese cities as well . With the exception of the major urban conglomerates other cities are prone to an air assault or missile strike .

    The idea is always to safeguard your most valuable assets .

    It's important to understand that S 400 is not designed to intercept US MIRVs because the bus which holds all the warheads has a small rocket engine, which it uses shortly after the booster separates to maneuver. At appropriate points it pickles off individual reentry vehicles (RVs and various decoys) so that they hit their independent targets.This happens soon after the booster separates in order to maximize the possible spread of targets.

    The individual RVs of Trident 5 have maneuvering capability RVs , some of the warheads are released by a small rocket motor to put them on the correct reentry trajectory towards their targets making it impossible for the S 400 to intercept them.

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  UVZ3485 on Mon May 20, 2013 12:13 am

    @DoD

    Sorry,but the S-400 cannot intercept the trident 5 RVs,they´re just to fast as its max. target speed is 4,8 km/s and the trident 5 would be faster than this,assuming the S-400 battery would be connected to the ABM-Radar-Network and especially the Don-2N so it would have a chance to detect the RVs at all,not counting any Penaids it would have to distinguish the real RVs from.
    Any ABM,Russian or American shouldn´t be relied upon vs. modern targets.
    This is IMO a very good article(on a very good site,even though i dont agree with everything they publish):://russianforces.org/blog/2012/10/very_modest_expectations_sovie.shtml

    And of course,the claim about the russian IADS being impotent outside of Moscow and St.Pete......well BS to say the least(no offense),here also an article from a very good site:
    ://geimint.blogspot.de/2012/07/strong-get-stronger.html (add http in front on both links)

    I think the owner is a registered user here Wink and i hope he doesn´t mind me using his work to prove my assumptions pirat ,unfortunately his analysis of the russian IADS isn´t available anymore but this should be enough to illustrate,that the russian IADS is still(by far) the strongest in the world,even if not as strong as the soviet one.
    PS.: this link-rule is strange,but ok....im the newbie

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon May 20, 2013 3:09 am

    Viktor wrote:Thing is that Russians when making stuff always make 100 variation of the same thing (no matter what that is)

    during development and after (while developing modernization) and there you can really see anything.

    This missile looks like 48N6 added with extra pair of fins at the top and with some kind of smaller 9M83 nozzles attached to it.

    It looks very cool though.

    Sharp eye stealthflanker.

    Viktor,

    What you have said in the first sentence of your post is very accurate, but in this case, the gray object is just the second stage (plus the interstage) of a missile from the S-75 family, without its wings.

    Regards,
    Morpheus


    Last edited by Morpheus Eberhardt on Mon May 20, 2013 4:12 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  TR1 on Mon May 20, 2013 4:07 am

    I had the same thought, probably a target drone.

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    S-400/500 News

    Post  Department Of Defense on Mon May 20, 2013 5:32 pm

    UVZ3485 wrote:@DoD Sorry,but the S-400 cannot intercept the trident 5 RVs

    That's what I said in my previous post as well . The S 400 is not designed to intercept MIRVs .

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  TR1 on Mon May 20, 2013 10:30 pm

    Quick question- let's talk about average/maximum speeds of the S-300V4 and S-400 systems.
    Who has the fastest rounds?
    Antei has faster acceleration due to the huge booster.
    In terms of target speed + range, the latest versions seem to be similar to each other, despite very different missiles.
    No energy advantage for Antei?


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Viktor on Mon May 20, 2013 11:47 pm

    TR1 wrote:Quick question- let's talk about average/maximum speeds of the S-300V4 and S-400 systems.
    Who has the fastest rounds?
    Antei has faster acceleration due to the huge booster.
    In terms of target speed + range, the latest versions seem to be similar to each other, despite very different missiles.
    No energy advantage for Antei?


    S-300V4 has the fastest missiles and the missiles with the furthest range. At the moment S-300V4 is the king.

    Until 40N6 class enters service within S-400 system, Antej rules


    S-400 200km range missiles (48N6)
    S-300V4 350km range missiles (9M82M)



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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Tue May 21, 2013 10:16 am

    Until the S-500 with the highest speed, highest altitude and longest range and designed to engage RVs from SLBMs and ICBMs...


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Viktor on Tue May 21, 2013 1:06 pm

    GarryB wrote:Until the S-500 with the highest speed, highest altitude and longest range and designed to engage RVs from SLBMs and ICBMs...

    true but satellites in LEO, hi flying hypersonic targets and areal targets as well Very Happy

    S-500 will most likely be based on S-300V concept and at the moment its 9M82M missile can reach more than 2600km/h (how much more is not

    specified) with 350km range (and the huge warhead) is the most terrifying missile there is.

    I would say that at the moment S-300V4 is the panache of the Russian air defense. (until S-400 gets its missiles Very Happy )


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  TR1 on Tue May 21, 2013 9:23 pm

    Right everything indicates S-300V has much higher maximum velocity, and as well much higher maximum cruise speed than S-300 complexes. S-300 used to have longer range vs airplane type targets.
    But now the gap seems to be met- in fact more so, overtaken with S-300V4. I am assuming the increased range is for the 9m82 logically.
    How was the massive increased range achieved, do we have any specific info? Are the missile speeds maintained, or would it realistically be traveling @ ~750 m/s @ the far end of the engagement envelope? 48N6 doesn't have such a huge booster, yet less range + speed? Am I understimating its speed?




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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  GarryB on Wed May 22, 2013 2:23 am

    Trajectory and flight profile have a lot to do with range... the old S-300 missiles could actually reach much further than they did when they first entered service simply by launching them on a high flight profile... like firing a cannon shell up at 45 degrees rather than more or less directly at the target allowing for shell drop.

    By firing them at 45 degrees they maximise their range (actually for long range missiles the angle is not actually 45 degrees because the faster the missile gets high into the thinner colder air the more it accelerates, but lets just use 45 degrees and keep it simple), as the missile approaches the location of the target it can change its course and dive down on the target with max energy and speed.

    Even long range AAMs benefit from flying very high... the long range model of the R-27, the R-27E models were designed to defeat enemy aircraft armed with the late model Sparrows by adopting a lofted trajectory for maximum speed to try to hit the enemy aircraft first which of course stops that aircraft from illuminating your aircraft with radar so their Sparrow will not hit you. With ARH missiles like AMRAAM however the Alamo might hit the enemy plane first because of its high flight speed, but the friendly aircraft would still need to evade the incoming AMRAAM.

    It should of course be pointed out that speed can be useful in an interception but any baseball player playing a bunt, or cricketer playing and defensive block will tell you that there is no need for the interceptor to be moving at anything like the speed of the object it is intercepting... you just need to detect the target early... determine a precise interception point and get your interceptor to that point in time for both to coincide in time and space. Obviously the Bowler or Pitchers job is to manipulate the target so that it deviates slightly from the intended interception point with swing or spin or other methods to get past the interceptor of the batter.


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Viktor on Wed May 22, 2013 2:27 am

    TR1 wrote:Right everything indicates S-300V has much higher maximum velocity, and as well much higher maximum cruise speed than S-300 complexes. S-300 used to have longer range vs airplane type targets.
    But now the gap seems to be met- in fact more so, overtaken with S-300V4. I am assuming the increased range is for the 9m82 logically.
    How was the massive increased range achieved, do we have any specific info? Are the missile speeds maintained, or would it realistically be traveling @ ~750 m/s @ the far end of the engagement envelope? 48N6 doesn't have such a huge booster, yet less range + speed? Am I understimating its speed?

    I think the greatest irony that happened after the fall of Soviet Union and the rapid degradation of now Russia armed forces was the

    rapid increase in Russia SAMs capability.

    Air defense of Russia after the fall of Soviet Union shrinked approximately five times but its efficiency increased many more times and

    will continue to rise even more rapidly with the introduction of the new systems like S-500/S-4000/Vityaz/Pancir-S1/Tor-M2/Morfei/Verba/

    and the modernization of the "old" systems like S-300PS/PM brought to Favorit standard and S-300V to S-300V4 standard, BUK-M1 etc

    and thats only half of the story - the real prize where the command centers and radar systems.

    I believe that with the now open borders Russia was flooded with the cheap electronic which Russian air defense companies knew how to use

    to achieve such brutal ranges earlier unthinkable and absolutely terrifying for any foreign military planers.

    Summing up the benefits:

    1. Huge increase in range observed with all Russian SAM

    2. Huge increase in missile guidance channels

    3. Easily and cheaply upgradeable old radar systems with new processing power

    4. Huge increase in command post ability to control more divisions and air detachment/ECM/passive radar etc (previously done by higher
    echelon command posts)

    5. Much much less electric power consumption for any command posts (radar and ASU)

    6. Command post and all accompanied equipment shrinked in size at least a double, increasing mobility and number of operators

    7. Introduction of wireless communication (allowed unbelievable SAM flexibility and positioning )

    8. Ability of command posts to process much more targets at the same time (this was becoming bottle neck in Soviet Union air defense and
    with the introduction of saturation attacks)

    9. Much more compact radar systems with more precise information about the targets, smaller in size for the huge increase in detection
    range and its operational life time and MTBF (which was much worse than with the western ones previously)

    10. New radar command posts, small, able to process huge number of targets, with only few operators and small power consumption

    is I think only some of the things that I could think of right now but certainly not all. Interesting thing is that as far as I know

    most of the modernized systems that received new electronics kept old algorithm of its functioning (because that was masterfully done

    in the first place).


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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  Deep Throat on Wed May 22, 2013 3:45 pm

    Russia will have space based assets to destroy incoming MIRVs .

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  gaurav on Sun May 26, 2013 9:12 am


    What you have said in the first sentence of your post is very accurate, but in this case, the gray object is just the second stage (plus the interstage) of a missile from the S-75 family, without its wings.

    Vow vow..info man..

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    Re: S-300/400/500 News [Russian Strategic Air Defense] #3

    Post  gaurav on Sun May 26, 2013 9:20 am

    Russia is not foolish..
    Compare that patriot crap .. with oldest version of s-300.. they dont compare simply..

    It has huge air defense industry that is ground based.. that is almost 80-90 % of all the ongoing programs..
    It huge space based program but for recon, imaging and comm purpose.. not for anything else..


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